How NOT to Conworld.

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Thakowsaizmu
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

Ollock wrote: And, ultimately, it's much easier to maintain bilinguals and translators/interpreters than to force everyone to speak one and only one language.
I'll get right on telling the Erielhonan that.

But really, though at first it may be easier to transition by way of getting translators, eventually it will be made mandatory in schools to learn the mega-State's preferred language, things printed in fringe language X will be harder to find (maybe not on the internet, but in print), and eventually the only people that will fluently speak fringe language X will be an older generation, who the younger will find backwards. Honestly, within a generation the majority would be speaking the state mandated language.

For example: America. My Great Grandmother and Great Grandfather was from Prussia. My Grandmother speaks... English. That is all. My Girlfriend's Uncle is from Vietnam. His kids don't speak a lick of Vietnamese.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Ollock »

Thakowsaizmu wrote: I'll get right on telling the Erielhonan that.
Searching that gives me a terse and questionable AngelFire site and a bunch of random user profiles.
But really, though at first it may be easier to transition by way of getting translators, eventually it will be made mandatory in schools to learn the mega-State's preferred language, things printed in fringe language X will be harder to find (maybe not on the internet, but in print), and eventually the only people that will fluently speak fringe language X will be an older generation, who the younger will find backwards. Honestly, within a generation the majority would be speaking the state mandated language.
Assuming there will not be a cultural backlash against imposition of another language. Also, it depends on the size of the population and the length of the culture's written history. It's one thing to eliminate the language of a few minority tribes (or tribes that have been decimated through conquest) that never had writing. But if you are to eliminate all languages in the entire world save one, you are likely to run into some significant populations with long histories that will fight you on the issue. Maybe they would "eventually" succumb, or maybe that "eventually" target is so far in the future that this mythical overpowering hegemon wouldn't be able to sustain their aggressive language policy. Hell, they may even collapse before the "eventually" comes.
For example: America. My Great Grandmother and Great Grandfather was from Prussia. My Grandmother speaks... English. That is all. My Girlfriend's Uncle is from Vietnam. His kids don't speak a lick of Vietnamese.
This is a common experience for immigrants, people who have left their home countries to go to a place where their mother tongue is already in the minority and not often used in officialdom. Yes, we did eliminate many indigenous languages ... though many of those were not so widely spoken, their speakers were violently reduced in number, and none of the languages in what is now the US had any form of writing. Even so, some of them still survive.
_____

Even if your hegemon were able to eliminate all other languages from the planet -- which could take generations of strict control and unbelievable exertion of power -- there will bel dialects, and if the hegemon were to collapse or even significantly soften language policy, those dialects could easily fracture into different languages.

So, yes, the scenario of a hegemonic power over all or almost all of the world assimilating an entire planet to one language is theoretically possible, if extremely unlikely. But even in the event that it occurs, the one-planet-one-language situation probably be unstable in the long run.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

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Ollock wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote: I'll get right on telling the Erielhonan that.
Searching that gives me a terse and questionable AngelFire site and a bunch of random user profiles.
The "Erie people"
Assuming there will not be a cultural backlash against imposition of another language...
I am not saying there wouldn't be. In fact, I am sure there would be by a lot of people, but not everyone cares that much about their family's culture or where they came from as much as they do about getting along in the society they are in and hanging out with friends and talking about whatever gender they are attracted to. That being said, I am sure that it would make for a great article about one's subcultures and those people against the state's mandated language.
Even so, some of them still survive.
I know. I am looking forward to my time off so I can start my Cherokee course. But there are next to no native speakers of those languages, and even those speakers who are native still know English and use it every day. They kind of have to to get along in the society they live in. It's not "fair" and may not be right, but it is the way it is.
Even if your hegemon were able to eliminate all other languages from the planet -- which could take generations of strict control and unbelievable exertion of power -- there will bel dialects, and if the hegemon were to collapse or even significantly soften language policy, those dialects could easily fracture into different languages.
Actually, it's not my hegemon. I am just playing Devil's advocate. But how the dialects differed and how the previous languages (even if now extinct) impact said dialects again would be pretty interesting. Not to mention the language family(ies) that would appear should this massive superstate collapse and (assuming a high tech level) all the high tech means of communication were lost.
So, yes, the scenario of a hegemonic power over all or almost all of the world assimilating an entire planet to one language is theoretically possible, if extremely unlikely. But even in the event that it occurs, the one-planet-one-language situation probably be unstable in the long run.
I don't think it's as unlikely as we'd like, I mean, given the current path of things and all the eerily telling cyberpunk stuff out there. And I am sure that the one language thing wouldn't last for ever, but it is possible that it could happen, and in some ways it already is (though not as doom and gloom 'Big Brother' as I am presenting).
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Ollock »

Thakowsaizmu wrote:
Even if your hegemon were able to eliminate all other languages from the planet -- which could take generations of strict control and unbelievable exertion of power -- there will bel dialects, and if the hegemon were to collapse or even significantly soften language policy, those dialects could easily fracture into different languages.
Actually, it's not my hegemon. I am just playing Devil's advocate. But how the dialects differed and how the previous languages (even if now extinct) impact said dialects again would be pretty interesting. Not to mention the language family(ies) that would appear should this massive superstate collapse and (assuming a high tech level) all the high tech means of communication were lost.
True. It makes for a great sci-fi scenario, doesn't it? Dozens of languages, but all suspiciously closely related over the entire planet, and some showing traces of substrates.
So, yes, the scenario of a hegemonic power over all or almost all of the world assimilating an entire planet to one language is theoretically possible, if extremely unlikely. But even in the event that it occurs, the one-planet-one-language situation probably be unstable in the long run.
I don't think it's as unlikely as we'd like, I mean, given the current path of things and all the eerily telling cyberpunk stuff out there. And I am sure that the one language thing wouldn't last for ever, but it is possible that it could happen, and in some ways it already is (though not as doom and gloom 'Big Brother' as I am presenting).
I still think it is very unlikely. What's currently happening, as far as I can see, is that English is taking the same role Latin did in Europe, except on a global scale. Many more languages will die, I'm quite certain, but I don't see any forces really being sufficient to homogenize the whole world. Maybe there is some stage coming in globalization that will be able to force a single global language, but imagining something like that seems like pure speculation at this point.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Zontas »

Veris wrote:What are things that people tend to do with their conworlds that make you lose interest? From stuff that simply makes you roll your eyes to stuff that makes you throw your hands up and walk away.

For me...

Eye-Rollingly Bad
1. Reiterating over and over again how different your world is from Earth. "Okay guys, fair warning -- this next bit is REALLY different from what you're used to, so if you get your mind blown, don't blame me :-)" This is usually a sure sign that the conworld is unimaginative. (1.5. Emoticons. You're introducing me to your conworld, not chatting with me on AIM.)

2. Having X number of intelligent, sapient creatures in your world, including humans, and having the first lines of your description of said humans go something like, "The humans of Conworld are rather average in culture, intellect and physical strength compared to the other races. They're also the most numerous." WTF is the point of having a ton of non-human races if mundane, vanilla humans are not only present in your conworld, but are also the most numerous? Gleesh.

3. Elves.

Deal-Breakingly Bad
4. A map with tons of unpronouncable, discordant names. Nothing personal, but like this. My ten-year-old nephew, who just started conworlding, makes stuff like that, and I only appreciate it 'cause he's my nephew, and is young. Someone in their twenties or thirties (or god-forbid, fourties) should be able to do better. Either way, my interest nosedives when I see something like that.

5. Copy-pasting Tolkien without realizing it. I'm looking at you, Christopher Paolini. To be fair, I think we all start out making highly-derivative works, but that's why I'm listing, subjectively, "things that turn me off of a conworld" rather than making a claim of an objective "doing this is bad." Do what you want, but Tolkien ripoffs repulse me like antigravity.

6. Preaching. I'm not going to bother reading about a conworld if its description is peppered with its creators worldviews, regardless of whether I agree. You can tell me about your conpeoples' gods without sacchrine gush about how humans "need something to believe in" or that "they're stupid for believing in these gods, which are actually false." Needless to say, I almost never read about "utopian" conworlds, because they're invariably based on the half-baked ideals of their (typically very) young creators.
You must realize Tolkien Ripoff=Germanic Mythology.

And 'unpronounceable' is opinion. [ever seen Salish?]
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

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Helios wrote:You must realize Tolkien Ripoff=Germanic Mythology.
I feel Tolkein drifted quite far from the original sources but in any case, I think the problem has more to do with Tolkein's prominance. It becomes blindingly obvious when someone's ripping off LotR again and thus it becomes a little irritating reading it again.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

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It'd be (somewhat) more forgivable if they actually copied Tolkien in full instead of just ripping off the surface elements. "Okay so there's boring old humans and drunken scottish dwarves and immortal snobby elves and a big bad evil guy who wants to conquer the world with his army of orcs" is as far as most "tolkien-ripoffs" actually go.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Ànradh »

Micamo wrote:It'd be (somewhat) more forgivable if they actually copied Tolkien in full instead of just ripping off the surface elements. "Okay so there's boring old humans and drunken scottish dwarves and immortal snobby elves and a big bad evil guy who wants to conquer the world with his army of orcs" is as far as most "tolkien-ripoffs" actually go.
Indeed. [+1]
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

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Micamo wrote:It'd be (somewhat) more forgivable if they actually copied Tolkien in full instead of just ripping off the surface elements. "Okay so there's boring old humans and drunken scottish dwarves and immortal snobby elves and a big bad evil guy who wants to conquer the world with his army of orcs" is as far as most "tolkien-ripoffs" actually go.
To add: in Tolkien's world, the dwarves are more Semitic that Scottish (so ironically for instance the Elder Scrolls is paying more homage to Tolkien in that regard), the Elves can be douchebags (Elder Scrolls does it... too), and so on. Actually to be honest I've felt that of all the fantasy I've come across the Elder Scrolls are the closest to actually emulating Tolkien in a way that works, at least a bit more than the stereotypical fantasy cliche dump. Not to mention that Skyrim screams of the Old Norse/Germanic and Beowulf stuff that Tolkien loved.

My Elder Scrolls worship aside, I'm of the suspicion that most of the current "tolkien ripoffs" are actually moreso ripoffs of D&D but they're called "tolkien ripoffs" because of Tolkien's high position within the fantasy-loving community, though I can't be too sure since I've pretty much never dabbled in tabletop roleplaying.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Micamo »

And D&D's (greyhawk) lore tends to be this sort of "tolkien ripoff" more often than not. Really the modern fantasy genre sprung about from cheap Tolkien ripoffs, then everybody ripping off the ripoffs, then everybody ripping off the ripoffs of the ripoffs... etc.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

Micamo wrote:And D&D's (greyhawk) lore tends to be this sort of "tolkien ripoff" more often than not. Really the modern fantasy genre sprung about from cheap Tolkien ripoffs, then everybody ripping off the ripoffs, then everybody ripping off the ripoffs of the ripoffs... etc.
It wasn't just Tolkien, but also Howard, Vance and Burroughs that D&D was primarily inspired from in its formative years.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by eldin raigmore »

Helios wrote:You must realize Tolkien Ripoff=Germanic Mythology.
According to the Tolkiens, including JRRT himself, he was mostly inspired by Finnish and Welsh sources; but also by autobiographical World War I experience traditional British and other autobiographical material.
Since he was a philologist he must have had lots of exposure to the traditional corpus of very many cultures; at least, European and Classical cultures. I doubt that anyone who was that widely read could manage to keep those influences entirely out of any large creative work they did.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

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eldin raigmore wrote:
Helios wrote:You must realize Tolkien Ripoff=Germanic Mythology.
According to the Tolkiens, including JRRT himself, he was mostly inspired by Finnish and Welsh sources; but also by autobiographical World War I experience traditional British and other autobiographical material.
Since he was a philologist he must have had lots of exposure to the traditional corpus of very many cultures; at least, European and Classical cultures. I doubt that anyone who was that widely read could manage to keep those influences entirely out of any large creative work they did.
From what I know he's also important in the academic study of Beowulf (one of his famous academic papers was about arguing that Beowulf could be read as literature too, and not just as a product of a historical time), so I'm certain the Germanic/Anglo-Saxon influence must have be there - hence why some people like to say them Rohan riders are supposed to be Anglo-Saxons with horsies, although I'm not sure exactly how accurate this characterization is.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by thetha »

In my conworld, there's a small bit of magic floating around. No one throws fireballs or teleports, but there are some fauna that pretty much drift around in the air or produce apparitions, things like that. Even though it's not that major of a break from reality, is it bad that I just hand-wave away how this kind of thing occurs?
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Zumir »

@Theta: If it's in a fantasy-ish setting, then magic is a perfectly acceptable handwave. If the setting is more sci-fi-ish, then it's just annoying (I'm looking at you, Avatar).
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

Zumir wrote:@Theta: If it's in a fantasy-ish setting, then magic is a perfectly acceptable handwave. If the setting is more sci-fi-ish, then it's just annoying (I'm looking at you, Avatar).
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by masako »

Thakowsaizmu wrote:Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
~Arthur C. Clarke
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
~Barry Gehm
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Trailsend »

sano wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote:Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
~Arthur C. Clarke
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
~Barry Gehm
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology."
~ Girl Genius
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by zelos »

Trailsend wrote:
sano wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote:Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
~Arthur C. Clarke
"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
~Barry Gehm
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology."
~ Girl Genius
I wonder how those would work if you had magic and technology being intertwined :P
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

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Nothing would change.
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