Debate (Conpeople vs Conpeople)

[Serena]

I was looking at the Conculture/Conpeople Opinions Thread when I thought: too bad we can't reply to each other's answers, why do we have to keep going with a new question? Then I thought it would be nice to have some sort of debate over the issues we cover in that thread.

So, this is basically how I want it to work:

• One posts a prompt.
• We debate over the reason why our conculture behaves the way it does, and over the reason why behaving like this is better.
• After a week, anyone is allowed to post a new prompt (but it's not mandatory, we can continue forever with the one we're talking about).

I'll start:

---

What would your conpeople think of democracy?

It is our opinion that treating everyone as equal is such a nonsense. We do agree that anyone should be able to fight to become a warrior and to study to become a wiseman, therefore acquiring the right to be accepted in a higher class, but we sincerely despise the idea that in some places of the world people get political power for futile reasons (ie, just because they are adults or just because they exist). Democracy is fundamentally wrong. In Keleia, we don't vote for the next Queen. Wisemen choose the Queen because they're wise and they know what a Queen should be like. When a Wiseman dies, other Wisemen choose another one. We don't discriminate skin color or gender, anyone can be a Wiseman.

[Segano]

Very interesting idea. :)

But how will someone born into a poor family get the money to study to become a Wiseman? Does the Keleian government pay for education? Because if they don't, doesn't that basically mean poor people stay poor due to insufficient funding? In Aroida we consider every citizen to be equal, and every citizen is given equal chance to live up to his or her potential. We agree that democracy isn't perfect and doesn't work. As a matter of fact, our country is lead by just 1 person who does what she thinks is right. But the president and vice president are elected by all of us, not just the people who studied for it. However, we only choose once every 6 years, and just like Keleia, trust that the Queen (in our case the president) knows what she's doing.

[elemtilas]

What would your conpeople think of democracy?

It is our opinion that treating everyone as equal is such a nonsense. We do agree that anyone should be able to fight to become a warrior and to study to become a wiseman, therefore acquiring the right to be accepted in a higher class, but we sincerely despise the idea that in some places of the world people get political power for futile reasons (ie, just because they are adults or just because they exist). Democracy is fundamentally wrong. In Keleia, we don't vote for the next Queen. Wisemen choose the Queen because they're wise and they know what a Queen should be like. When a Wiseman dies, other Wisemen choose another one. We don't discriminate skin color or gender, anyone can be a Wiseman.

Auntimoany answers: Wise indeed is a folk that chooses its Empress from among the rightly qualified by a college of wise folk! For indeed our Empire concurs on this point: it being plainly just and right to avoid the downward drag of tyranny by hereditary transfer of the Imperial Dignity, we have determined that the monarchy should be elective and that suitable candidates should be young nobles brought up and educated within the great schools of the Empire and that they should serve an apprenticeship in order to fully ascertain their suitability. The Ministry of Kingmaking, at the appointed times, shall forgather to choose from among the eligible candidates, none of whom know for certain whether or not they are in fact candidates. Only upon deliberation, review of records and a process of interview is the new monarch chosen. Such a one as is chosen to inherit the Imperial Dignity must then serve some time in the army and will then serve as a sort of apprentice to the chief ministers of the Empire and at last as an apprentice to the monarch himself. Ideally, the Ministry will chose a person who is just finishing with school and preparing for military service, and all this while the current Emperor is still reasonably healthy. The previous monarch, Marcam II (1952-1992), had to learn the craft the hard way, having been chosen a mere two days before his predecessor was trampled by an olifant during a military exercise. Happily, our present incumbent (H.M. Handfast Bloodyblade) enjoyed the experience of a six year apprenticeship before assuming the imperial dignity himself.

However, we can not accede to nor concur with the notion of the fundamental wrongness of the rights and freedoms of the People, for Nature has granted to all the People, Man and Daine alike, various rights according to their stations, whether those rights be the Right to Hospitality, the Right of Domain, the Right to Keep and Duty to Bear Arms for the defense of one's grafdom and nation at need or indeed other rights. Some people have rights that others lack: of course, the gravio or local ruler and others of moderate to high rank have rights to Life and Property. An apprentice or a serf or a soldier may not have those rights in full. A master certainly has broad and nearly absolute authority over his apprentices, including punitive action. The master (or mistress) of a household has broad rights of action over any (nolitional) serfs and lesser rights over any (volitional) serfs. The gravio has very broad rights over the lives and property of any of his landsmen, but few and more restricted rights over the freemen of his domain. Monks have no property rights whatsoever, but are relieved of many burdens that others with greater rights have.

Yet, as experience of life and study of philosophy teach the one who has eyes to see, Men, whether serf or free, are not beasts of burden. It runs contrary to their nature to content themselves with such confinement: aggrieved serfs naturally revolt against hard masters; prisoners riot and seek to escape their confinement. By nature, they will seek and at need fight for a state of freedom. The wise ruler of a state therefor exercises his power ever with an eye on the condition of his People and a mind that understands this need for a folk to speak its mind and have its voice heard. The ruler that crushes his folk under an iron fist is the ruler that shall soon find himself in the midst of revolution and civil war. It is for this reason that every wise and legitimate ruler of our Empire rules in accord with the Commission of Heaven -- that the Emperor reigns only with the consent of his people; that the Emperor reigns in covenant with the Heavenly Father & the Law of Heaven and that the Emperor reigns in covenant with the constitutions of the Realm. With these Three Covenants in balance, the Empire flourishes and the Emperor himself truly beams with a divine aura and is able to work the particular dwimmery proper to a legitimate king at the head of a legitimate government of a prosperous nation. While we do not -- and no one could sensibly or rationally -- advocate for a general democracy, for such would naturally lead to utter chaos and anarchy!; we do however strongly advocate for the right of the People to have their proper say in the operation of Government. To that end, our Ricksthinge, which is our deliberative Parliament, is duly constituted and the members of certain of its Houses are elected from among the People. Once called to sit by the Emperor, the Parliament's duties include the passage of legislation, the deliberation on the acts of government and also to serve as a check against imperial tyranny. Thus, in a rationally prescribed fashion, all the People have and exercise their right to governance, yet we also retain that which is best in the monarchical system of government: the established Tradition, the continuity of Enthroned Monarch as opposed to the come and go of Parliamentarians and Magisterial Ministers.

Also to that end, we acknowledge the need for People to express themselves and their concerns in appropriate ways. Speech rights are somewhat limited in Auntimoany, but are indeed a little broader than in some other lands. Of course, as you might expect, one doesn't have the free right to "publicly criticize the Enthroned Monarch, in or out of Parliament, nor the Throne nor the Wand and Scepter of State" nor the right to "criticize the Speakers of Parliament at Sessions" nor can one "utter blasphemies against the Heavenly Father, or against any charter-sanctioned pagan gods, except as excused by ancient custom". The "ancient custom" clause allows for certain kinds of restricted free speech at certain designated times -- a sort of venting process if you will. But note that one is entirely free to criticise the Monarch in general and Parliamentarians personally as well as their actions, though people will undoubtedly look askance in your direction and the crowd will subtly shift away from you ever so slightly. Even so, this is terribly important as a way for the Commission of Heaven to express its will freely and openly before the Emperor's face. Some foreigners think this is backwards, holding that emperors are divinely appointed priest-kings, but in Auntimonay it makes sense: the Emperor and the Ministers in his Cupboard and the representatives in Parliament are but civic agents who hold a temporary authority to push the Government in one direction or another. So criticizing the individual office holder is seen as entirely appropriate, while lambasting the Throne -- the very idea of monarchy -- is a good way to land yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

elemtilas

[Squall]

In my world, according to the scholars, both democracy and monarchy do not work. In the monarchy, nothing changes and in the democracy, there is a cycle of better and worse times.

The empire had an experience with democracy and it did not improve the state. The state lost more money during the democracy than during the monarchy because of the high level of corruption.

The number of people unsatisfied with the government increased. During the monarchy, everyone was unsatisfied, but most people did not care about politics. During the democracy, there was a group satisfied with the elected president, but another group was very unsatisfied. People that did not care about politics were often disappointed because their candidate was not elected or their elected candidates did not fulfill their promises.

When the election had two candidates and the results were 52%-48%, riots were common during the next years.

When the president that was born in the province that has the largest population was elected, he benefited his province and ignored the other provinces. After he was re-elected, the other provinces almost started a civil war.

The stability returned after the return of the millennial monarchy.

Many people believe that a candidate that no one prefers is better than a candidate that is hated by a significant part of the population. 30% is already significant. The emperor was born in the central palace and free from the bias of the outer world. He was prepared to govern since the childhood and for that reason he knows how to govern and he is more neutral than elected candidates.

The end of the democracy strengthened the nobility. Now they avoid disagreements between themselves because they fear the return of the democracy, which would make them unable to continue being parasites and stealing money from the state.
In the provinces, the nobility chooses a nobleman to be the face of the local government. They also choose someone to actually govern and to be blamed in case of problems.
Small villages are democratic, because the population discuss the problems collectively.


The role of the legislature is performed by the church. The conpeople thinks that it is strange to separate the church from the legislature. The legislature would be unreliable without the member of the church.

[qwed117]

The average Aigan (year:t03) would be astounded by the idea of democracy, and would be confused about its methods. The Aigan civilization had just gotten out of a primordial rut, and society has just begun to form. They need strong rulers who can consolidate resources, a society where everyone has a vote leads to the dilemma of the commons or whateveritscallednow. Most men realize whether a dictator is good or bad depends on the dictator's ability to rule. If a governing body is truly corrupt and inefficient, then it would be taken down quickly.

[alynnidalar]

The Sanmra say democracies and monarchies are both nonsense, the only proper way is a pair of philosopher kings who rule for life, chosen by unanimous agreement of a council of respected elders and the heads of influential clans.

...okay, so maybe which elders are most respected is determined by how many people vote for them, but still, it's certainly better than letting the common people vote directly on their leaders. I mean, really now. That's just ridiculous. Next you're going to give the vote to humans and the clanless. Or be abolishing the clans altogether, like those crazy anarchist Tuanmali and their ludicrously chaotic web of rules that they call a government.

No no, if being a philosopher king queen was good enough for our beloved founder Tirina, blessings of heaven on her name, it's good enough for us. Think of how disorganized and scattered we were before she united us. Think of how in danger we were from extinction from the humans who outnumber us. Following her legacy is the only way to preserve ourselves.

---

(and now from the Tuanmali side of the aisle...)

Participation in government is a fundamental right of all rational, intelligent beings! The purpose of a government is to protect, provide for, and carry out the wishes of those that live under its rule; therefore, to prevent any adult from having a say in that government is heinous tyranny.

Do you remember, brothers and sisters, how so many thousands of years ago we were brutally crushed under the regime of the dictator Tirina? How she deposed our own personally-chosen leaders and replaced them with puppets of her own? How they imposed their foreign language and ways upon us, nearly eradicating our dear Azen before a few brave rebels, our ancestors, managed to break away and preserve our native tongue and culture?

We must not sully their memory by discarding the right they fought so hard for, the right of FREEDOM for every citizen *eagle cries bravely in the distance*, the right of all to contribute to the laws that guide them and policies that lead them. It is the only way to ensure that the government is truly (if I may be so crass as to borrow a human politician's phrasing) of the people, by the people, for the people.

...even if sometimes it's hard to get things done when every person in a community has the right to vote on issues (even if they don't all exercise it), and every community regardless of size has a representative to the communal parliament and every other week somebody is threatening to secede. But it's still better than the fascist puppet state the Sanmra have, ruled over by people who happened to be born into the right families.

---

(we are forced to break off here, as it appears our Sanmra representative and Tuanmali representative have started a fistfight)

[Serena]

But how will someone born into a poor family get the money to study to become a Wiseman? Does the KeleianKeyali government pay for education? Because if they don't, doesn't that basically mean poor people stay poor due to insufficient funding?

You don't have to pay for education. Listening to the lessons is completely free and sort of mandatory if you live in a village.

[Egerius]

Although my con-culture is neither fleshed out, nor primarily settled in their version of the early 21st century, this is written from the viewpoint of a young student who takes the daily journey to the capital Buonavalle.

So, this mysterious, inter-dimensional portal has opened again? (BTW: A similar thread has been opened, but the con-people's language have to be used. It is focused on pre-modern societies ([Pre-]Antiquity to Renaissance).)
(Thinks) Democracy? Let's see how well I can explain our political system without studying politics:

The RSDC (Republica Sociale-Democratica Cenciglara) is quite democratic; both, men and women may vote. In fact, elections are held yearly at communal basis (eleçún communál), where every 16-year-old may vote the next candidate for communal presidency from the available parties who form the communal council (quatrovirál communál), which consists of four people.

Every fourth year, those who are at least 20 years old, may vote a candidate of several parties into the Grand Senate of the state, an event which is highly celebrated (La gran senatoría).

Once every eight years, the Grand Senate (Grand Senatu delis cento-veintótto), which consists of 128 people, votes the next four chancellors (cancellari) who have the fate of the republic at their hands.

I don't know about corruption in the senate, but local politics gets dirty in some communes, particularly those in the north.

You don't have to pay for education. Listening to the lessons is completely free and sort of mandatory if you live in a village.

What do I hear? Is education in your country 100% free? We fund ours through taxes - who absolved their Bachelor or even a Master degree (Baccheláuro e Méstro) has to pay even more taxes (but it is not very much and only if you have a job which requires higher qualification).

[Tanni]

Well, we Catys are supposed to fly. Usually, we live in small families in huge trees. Sometimes, especially in the North, this families visit Humans to live there for the winter. It is beneficial for both, for Humans as well as for Catys. Many of us are flying from one tree to another, where we live for some days to some month. If we don't fly alone, we build up flight groups loosely headed by a tchorrolut, that's somebody who has already flown much. If we don't like the tchorrolut's decisions, we use a command band protocoll to seperate the flight group into two or even more, depending on the opinions discussed on the ground. So, if the tchorrolut wants to fly to the West, and someone wants to fly to the East, and someone else likes to fly to the South, the ultrasonic protocoll would be issued while flying. The proponents of the several directions would head to the direction they like, and the rest would follow according to their liking. If there're only a few for a certain direction, they can make up their mind and follow the rest. The same would happen for other decisions. The command band signals would contain the opinions respectively. The details of the procedure depend on the flight group and the used protocoll.

We don't like the so-called democracy some Humans have. It means 'reign of the people' but in fact is only reign of a few people or some companies. And if it's indirect democracy, they only elect some people, they can never decide on actual issues. Misuse of power guaranteed! -- You haven't heard it for sure, but the tchorrolut 's calling for gathering in the command band. The skies are wide!

[Squall]

Opinions from more civilizations.

Another civ
They use sortition, a system in which the governor is chosen randomly. In other words, chosen by the gods.

The gods never make mistakes. When the governor is terrible, it means that s/he was corrupted by evil spirits during the mandate. For that reason, bad governors are punished with the death, because they are being controlled by evil spirits and the death will free the body from the evil spirits.

They dislike monarchy, because they dislike things that never change.
They do not like democracy, because people are less intelligent and more corruptible than gods.

A sci-fi civ
We built a good giant computer to govern for everyone. It contains the intelligence of each sage that helped to build it.

Humans will never be better than the our amazing computer. Computers lack greedy, pride, hypocrisy and are not target of blackmail. The only artificial feeling programmed is "happiness to see life, freedom and happiness".

[Curlyjimsam]

The Viksens are typically pretty opposed to the sort of democracy we're familiar with, on the grounds that it allows people to get into office with no training or experience and that even once leaders become a bit more experienced they tend to be elected out of office (or even forced out by constitutional limits on how long terms should be). Leaders in the Viksor are elected, but rather indirectly in most cases, and tend to serve for rather a long time - basically they only leave office if they resign, die or fall foul of a vote of no confidence, and the national psyche generally views the latter course of action as a pretty desperate measure. That said, there are plenty of people who are rather more pro-democracy in our sense.

[Shemtov]

We Pagos have no want for Democracy- but it may be fine for other cultures. After all, we were placed with The Chief Fallen Spirit being of our people- and his descendents are our kings. We don't think others should submit to his political power- though he says he thinks that those who don't know metalwork should be enslaved- but his religious power only, and even then he's not infallible, he admitted it himself. But we are lucky to have The Chief Fallen Spirit being of our people so how can we rebel against his descendents reign. How fortunate are we!

[Foolster41]

Salthans are extremely democratic, as a result of abuses from worse and worse monarchic rulers. Those 20 years old or older may vote. Every 5 years they elect city officials, senators and members of the national senate, and executives at each of those levels.

Salthan politics is made up of many many parties, and so people tend to just vote for the colotion of parties that focus on the issues that are most important to them.

Salthans see there is only three choices: rule by a single person or small group (i.e. monarchists or military tyrants), no rules (anarchy) or rule by the people (democratic republic)

[ol bofosh]

People of the Harracks (subterranean network of tunnels and settlements)
It sounds like a fine idea but we can't afford to live with such luxuries. We must rely on our engineers to keep the Harracks running. An un- or under qualified leader in the position of power would soon lead to the destruction of the Harracks, our life-support systems would soon collapse due to inefficiency. We need knowledgeable and efficient leaders, like our engineers who can keep us supplied with air, water, food, and keep the tunnels and domes from collapsing, which is what has happened to at least one settlement.

Although, truth be told, all our citizens must contribute to society and have to be trained in an aspect of the maintenance, so you could say we are all engineers, but only the most experienced can rule. There can be general consultations for some non-vital things, when the leaders can afford such niceities, but the Harracks decision making is done by a council of engineers, one for each settlement, which act more or less independently. There is the Federal Tunnels Agency, which are a group of engineers appointed by council of engineers of each settlement to take care of the systems outside the settlements, but they have little power over the people.

[Foolster41]

The Sylvanians (cat people) find democracy confusing. Why would you have everyone have equal power? Of course everyone should get their say, but ultimately it should the strongest in the group who makes the decision, preferably one who is the right mix of experience of age, but not so old he lacks the power to lead. If someone wants to lead, they can always challange the leader.

((This race maybe is a bit cliche as a fantasy race. I was interested in creating a fantasy race based on big cat behavior))

[valiums]

I love this idea, I've always wanted to see more people's responses to questions in the other thread.

---

The Tower Middlands support the idea of democracy, but not a completely free one.
While it is natural and obvious that those best suited to a task should be the ones to do it, there is no sense in discounting that, unless a person is free to act of their own will, they will not do their best possible work. To that end, there are neither nobility nor royalty in the Middlands, and only through a continuous show of effort, earnestness, and skill in the work of caring for one's community is a person able to advance in Middlish society. Those who thirst for power, and those who grow bored with the ease it brings, have no business tending to a people.
The appropriate person may come from any place, and so it makes little sense indeed to restrict a person from doing their life-work by the odd chance of birth. At that moment, only the Architect herself can know to what heights and breadths a small creator may reach. Neither should we discount those who would prove their talent despite lack of upbringing, for the simple choice of the good man's heir - for it would also be unfair to the heir who has no desire to do a day's work in the Council Chambers and be repaid with two thanks and a thousand complaints!
Similar to the mother and the child, the healer and the patient, and the teacher and the student, the commoner and the councilor must be equals in exchange. The child will one day care for the mother; the patient will give coin to and spread good word of the healer; the student will improve upon the teacher's knowledge; the future must not be forsaken for an easy present.
For that reason, all should be able to vote, and even the children should be given a hand, small as it is, in their nation's future. Those who have shown themselves to be pillars for their community, to be truly concerned with raising their constituents up, have a heavier hand in deciding who should lead larger causes and populations, but in the end, it is the people who are being served, and they must have their final say.

[Squall]

What will be the next issues?
Here are some suggestions. Let's pick one.

Secular state x theocracy
Women x men
Death penalty
Vegetarianism
Environmentalism x Huge GDP
Nationalism
Ethnic conflicts (within the same country)
Witchcraft (if magic exists in your world)
Slavery (the opinion of the middle class, which are not slave neither master)
Criminality index
Corruption
Wars
Turmoils
People having a dragon as pet

[Egerius]

Slavery

External view: From a historical perspective, yes (my con people have abandoned slavery long ago).

Internal view from a 21st century Rodentèrra conperson:
The old Rodent Empire had slavery, but it was exploiting dogs (which can do simple tasks and the hard work our predecessors felt too superior for).
Criminals were not enslaved, rather they had to join the military or, if they killed, raped or behaved immorally, were sent to the amphitheaters and killed there.

The same dogs who were slaves also had to join the military for at least half a year over the course of two or four years (sources point to two terms in spring and autumn). During their time off, the canes respectabiles were sent back to their families. Their children often received the same elementary education as the Chinchilla children, which meant basic reading and writing skills, numeracy and armor-less self-defense.

Slavery has been diminishing since the Empire's fall in 768, officially abolished in the Union of Social Republics since their establishment in 1924.

For the curious: The dogs I talk about are significantly more intelligent than those on Earth, if one can trust the documentation left in the probes found all over the continent. They talk with a funny accent and their intelligence is comparable to an 8-year-old Chinchilla (human "IQ tests" saved in crystal and stone point to an intelligence comparable to a 9 or 10 year-old human child).

[qwed117]

Despite having very basic tribal+communal feels, the Akuri mostly avoid slavery. The one exception is during wartime. One half of the population of the opposing side's military can be enslaved for five years to repay their debts as war criminals. Ironically, the Akuri are treated poorly by their own rulers in comparison to the slaves, but that's just the Akuris consistent hate of taxes.

In the Agiskan Empire (an Akuri state, the earliest) the ownership of an unwilling person was considered criminal, punishable with 10 years as a slave of the state. The exceptions were slaves of the state and indebted slaves (which had a maximum time of 2 years). A slave had to be given food or be released from service with all debts dropped. The family of the debtor had to be offered homes, but not food.

So...Somewhat?

In the Arian Empire, slavery was outlawed completely.

[elemtilas]

Slavery

In the Eastlands of the World, slavery -- and certainly slavery as twas practiced in 19th century America -- is a rare thing. Apart from several traditions of debt slavery in various contries, there are very few examples of forced servitude. In Auntimoany, the place where this happens is a debtors prison. A Debtors Prison is, most broadly speaking, a place where one is housed and punished for the crime of falling into debt and not being able to pay off said debt. Any society that ascribes value to things like work, time and money will eventually also come up with the concepts of borrowing and repaying. A debtor is simply someone who has outborrowed himself and can no longer pay back his creditors. In Auntimoany, the civilized way of dealing with such miscreants is to sentence them to a term in a debtors prison, which is really a kind of workhouse.

Of course, it's only after all other remedies are pursued -- from compelling the debtor to sell off treasures or livestock or other goods, to in extremis selling off the house or farm (terribly difficult to do unless the debtor is unmarried and heirless) -- that one may compel the debtor's very labour. And then it's to the workhouse you go! There, you (and your family) will be the guests of the Commissioners of the workhouse -- there are separate quarters for the inmates and for their families, and they get to visit you during your relatively rare free moments; there you shall live and work and socialise; there shall you eventually pay back your debt. It's not an easy repayment scheme, either: The amount of work you do is tallied daily by your overseer and recorded in the Commissioners' ledger. Each day's wage is then divided up between your creditor, the workhouse itself, the Commission and you. If your salary is determined to be set at two dalers per day, then chances are good the first daler goes straight to the creditor. Of the remainder, half a daler goes to the House, a quarter to the Commission, an eighth to your designated chapel or temple and an eighth to you.

Unlike other punishments, under Auntimoanian Law, criminal debt is inherited equally by your spouse(s) and children. So, if you have the misfortune of falling sick and dying while in House, your wife/es and children move in the workhouse and take over for you. Happily, their time in house will not be so long -- many hands make light work, after all! And, according the Law of 2000, the labor rates of child heirs at criminal debt repayment are now paid at the same standard rates as adults. But at least your house will still be waiting for them when they get out!, though most likely emptied and having been rented out by the Commission as a way of recuperating some of their costs. The one further saving grace is that, once condemned, the judge will usually halve or quarter any interest owing on your debt remaining at time of trial, and no further interest can be collected by the plaintiff.

One of the most famous examples of debt slavery, of the Foreign variety, occurred nearly 200 years ago. Twas in 1812 that Mentolatum found itself in a scuffle with Auntimoany. Auntimoany being the more powerful of the tusslers, but also not being desirous of a large scale war with an otherwise friendly nation, to say nothing of an occupation, a lightning war was engaged in, during which our Emperor's armies rapidly crushed the Mentolatian armies, destroying some key infrastructure and looting all the way. In short order, the scuffle ended, and in typicaly Thietish fashion, the victorious Emperor at the time sought to seal the treaty (Treaty of the Marches, 1813) with a royal wedding and quite naturally demanded the daughter of the arquan in marriage. "Arquan" is what they call their kings.

Consternation ensued down in Mentolatum, however. After all, how could the arquan condescend to sell off his daughter into slavery!? For they had this ancient practice called newaruta, which is a kind of debt slavery: if a family finds itself unable to pay off a debt, they must sell off the eldest daughter for a set term in order to pay it off. So, there being no real choice in the matter, the poor girl got sent away. Although she apparently succumbed to some wasting illness within two years, and was publically mourned in the City for some time, every Mentolatian seemed to feel it was really a defiant act of honorable suicide. Anyway, Auntimoany went on its merry way, the Emperor found a new princess to fall in love with, while Mentolatum fell into a nasty civil war and consequent economic depression. The arquan was deposed and a regency was set up in his place.

It was not until 1953 that the arquanate was restored, but its reputation was still very much tarnished. Much of the old esteem was refurbished five years ago or so when the present arquan, on the anniversary of that ill-fated wedding, decreed an end to the practice of newaruta.