(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Discussions about constructed worlds, cultures and any topics related to constructed societies.
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LinguoFranco
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

I’m trying to create a clockpunk world, but I need to figure out some things.

Since clockpunk is usually based on Renaissance Italy (my world is as well), it would make sense to have a religion that resembles Christianity, Catholicism in particular. I want to do something a little different like have a polytheistic pantheon or use an Eastern influence for the world’s religion, but I’m wondering how much that would change this culture and society.

I know Europe has a history of pagan religions and I doubt they ever completely disappeared.

I want my world to stand out and not be a carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture, but still put thought into it.

I don’t plant to go super detailed, at least not yet. I just want something in the background to show the characters have some sort of belief in the supernatural.

Any thoughts?

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Post by fruityloops »

alynnidalar wrote:
08 May 2019 15:01
In that case I would expect all insects to have similar chests, with little connection to gender.
eldin raigmore wrote:
07 May 2019 23:41
alynnidalar wrote:
07 May 2019 19:37
fruityloops wrote:
07 May 2019 18:42
small breasted
Why would insects have any mammary glands at all...?
Maybe they have “breasts” the same way gamefowl and songbirds have “breasts”? Maybe their wing-muscles make their chests puff out some?

and now i regret mentioning boobs.....

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by fruityloops »

LinguoFranco wrote:
08 May 2019 20:01
I’m trying to create a clockpunk world, but I need to figure out some things.

Since clockpunk is usually based on Renaissance Italy (my world is as well), it would make sense to have a religion that resembles Christianity, Catholicism in particular. I want to do something a little different like have a polytheistic pantheon or use an Eastern influence for the world’s religion, but I’m wondering how much that would change this culture and society.

I know Europe has a history of pagan religions and I doubt they ever completely disappeared.

I want my world to stand out and not be a carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture, but still put thought into it.

I don’t plant to go super detailed, at least not yet. I just want something in the background to show the characters have some sort of belief in the supernatural.

Any thoughts?
seems interesting enough i guess under some terms...

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Post by elemtilas »

fruityloops wrote:
08 May 2019 20:14
alynnidalar wrote:
08 May 2019 15:01
Maybe they have “breasts” the same way gamefowl and songbirds have “breasts”? Maybe their wing-muscles make their chests puff out some?

and now i regret mentioning boobs.....
Please don't regret! In all honesty, I, and I'm pretty sure we, are simply trying to understand a) why you seem to labouring under the misconception that people will be turned away by your world and b) why certain things are the way they are (e.g., in this specific case, clothing).

Mentioning boobs is important here because we don't know everything about your people and, perhaps, from these questions you can learn how better to present them?

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Post by fruityloops »

even i do justify it...i end up having folks still complain about it so i cave in and omit it out of my designs and setting.

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Post by elemtilas »

LinguoFranco wrote:
08 May 2019 20:01
I’m trying to create a clockpunk world, but I need to figure out some things.

Since clockpunk is usually based on Renaissance Italy (my world is as well), it would make sense to have a religion that resembles Christianity, Catholicism in particular. I want to do something a little different like have a polytheistic pantheon or use an Eastern influence for the world’s religion, but I’m wondering how much that would change this culture and society.

I know Europe has a history of pagan religions and I doubt they ever completely disappeared.

I want my world to stand out and not be a carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture, but still put thought into it.

I don’t plan to go super detailed, at least not yet. I just want something in the background to show the characters have some sort of belief in the supernatural.

Any thoughts?
It would change the entire outward face and also the fundamental nature of your world. The very world view that gives rise to science, the renaissance and everything modern essentially comes of the Catholic Church. On the one hand it was a politically stabilising force; as a human organisation it was incredibly wealthy and patronised the arts & sciences; as a divine organisation it provided not only sound morals & theology but also a fundamentally different worldview than that of Pagan Europe from before. It's what gave us moderns our concepts of the worth of the individual, our basic understanding of rights and freedoms, our basic concepts of social order and hierarchy.

That said, you certainly cán put something else in its place. I am assuming that since one of your goals is clockpunk within a renaissance era Italian setting, you will want to keep all the social, moral, ethical, scientific, rational, philosophical, etc. foundations. All you really have to do is dive deep into the history of the Church and its Jewish roots in Western culture and replicate that with something that resembles Catholicism. How far you diverge from primary world history will inform how different your clockpunk world's culture and so forth can be.

Western Europe certainly has a history of Pagan religion. The Roman State Religion and, among the armies, Mithraism and among the wealthy and curiosity seekers and deep seekers alike, the various Oriental mystery cults. They pretty much disappeared early on, and well in advance of Italy's renaissance. Knowledge of Pagan myths and so forth was well known and found expression in art and literature, and in many places continued to be expressed in local folklore; but it lacked anything like a theological foundation and a living tradition as religion.

As for hów to do it, my only suggestion on the matter would be to go with your first instinct of not going super detailed! If religion and in this case the history and profound effects of Catholicism in European society and Occidental culture in general are your meat-n-potatoes, then I'd say go whole hog! Come up with something cool to replace it. I think that would make for a fascinating world! I gather you're kind of starting up this project? Maybe right away is not the best time to work on that part of your world's history. You have the basic concept, just work at it little by little!

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Post by elemtilas »

fruityloops wrote:
08 May 2019 23:05
even i do justify it...i end up having folks still complain about it so i cave in and omit it out of my designs and setting.
Well, I can't really help with that. It's really up to you, in your own heart and in your own mind whether to cave in & omit something just because some random person complains, or whether you just say "thanks for your opinion" and move on.

I'm sorry that I missed where you justified Mantisfolk having boobs and having to cover them with clothing. Could you repeat?

In any event, I hope you're nòt taking the present conversation as us "complaining"! I really don't think that's what's going on here!
Last edited by elemtilas on 09 May 2019 15:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Reyzadren »

LinguoFranco wrote:
08 May 2019 20:01
I want my world to stand out and not be a carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture, but still put thought into it.
But why not just embrace the carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture? Imo, most clockpunk settings are already unique because clockpunk itself is quite an underused setting even within fantasy genres.

> Supernatural belief. Just add more folktales and/or urban legends that might and not be true, as well as some syncretism with religion.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguistCat »

fruityloops wrote:
08 May 2019 23:05
even i do justify it...i end up having folks still complain about it so i cave in and omit it out of my designs and setting.
I've been thinking about the nature of characters, settings, etc. and it's one thing if you start from a premise and someone points out that something else wouldn't work logically. But when it comes to matters of taste (details that you just like but don't NEED to be there, what premises you start from and the like), you can't force anyone else to like your work, and certainly not everyone is going to like it, or like all of it. But you can make sure it's something YOU like. As long as you like your idea, that's all that matters, and other people will like it or not. The people complaining aren't your audience and changing to fit them probably will just make you unhappy. You should be your main audience; anyone else is a bonus.

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Post by Salmoneus »

Artistic decisions have to be acts of the artist.
What critique can do, however, is show the artist what decisions they've made, and which decisions they've yet to make. Vivid works of art are generally the result of commiting to a coherent set of decisions - rather than vacillating between alternative visions without clarity.

I think the point underlying people's reactions to the bugworld is that there's a choice to be made here, between two different visions.

In one vision, bugfolk are their own thing, their bodies and minds and societies in some way a natural development of their nature - not necessary physically or entomologically 'realistic', but conceptually and logically coherent.

In the other vision, bugfolk are humans wearing funny hats - or, in this case, insect-suits. They look and act like humans, with just some arbitrary, superficial insectoid traits for scene decoration.


Both approaches have virtues. The coherent approach is much more interesting and distinctive; but the funny hats version is much more accessible. Children's cartoons, for instance, overwhelmingly go with the funny hats approach. Adult stories can follow this approach too, although it does impose certain restrictions on style: since it relies on the audience turning off their brain, it's best suited to the style of fairy tales (or, of course, porn), and least suited to genres like murder mystery. The coherent approach respects our intelligence more, but by making everything more alien makes it harder to deliver instinctively powerful stories, particularly in emotive genres like, say, romance.

The problem is, while no story will perfectly follow either approach, it's very difficult to take a real middle line either, because it leaves the audience confused, and unsure when they're meant to think and when not. If you get them to take one thing seriously, they get confused when you don't take another, closely-related thing seriously. Questions like "why would female insects have breasts?" and "why would insects wear the same clothes as humans despite having different sexual organs and different systems of temperature control?" don't arise so much if everyone's clear that this is just cartoon about humans who look like insects.

And, of course, it also depends who your audience is. If you're talking to, say, teenage anime enthusiasts, they might expect the cartoon approach and find the coherent approach confusing and offputting. On boards like this, on the other hand, where making coherent settings is our hobby, we're naturally going to instinctively see things through the lens of the goals of coherence and distinctiveness.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

elemtilas wrote:
08 May 2019 23:14
LinguoFranco wrote:
08 May 2019 20:01
I’m trying to create a clockpunk world, but I need to figure out some things.

Since clockpunk is usually based on Renaissance Italy (my world is as well), it would make sense to have a religion that resembles Christianity, Catholicism in particular. I want to do something a little different like have a polytheistic pantheon or use an Eastern influence for the world’s religion, but I’m wondering how much that would change this culture and society.

I know Europe has a history of pagan religions and I doubt they ever completely disappeared.

I want my world to stand out and not be a carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture, but still put thought into it.

I don’t plan to go super detailed, at least not yet. I just want something in the background to show the characters have some sort of belief in the supernatural.

Any thoughts?
It would change the entire outward face and also the fundamental nature of your world. The very world view that gives rise to science, the renaissance and everything modern essentially comes of the Catholic Church. On the one hand it was a politically stabilising force; as a human organisation it was incredibly wealthy and patronised the arts & sciences; as a divine organisation it provided not only sound morals & theology but also a fundamentally different worldview than that of Pagan Europe from before. It's what gave us moderns our concepts of the worth of the individual, our basic understanding of rights and freedoms, our basic concepts of social order and hierarchy.

That said, you certainly cán put something else in its place. I am assuming that since one of your goals is clockpunk within a renaissance era Italian setting, you will want to keep all the social, moral, ethical, scientific, rational, philosophical, etc. foundations. All you really have to do is dive deep into the history of the Church and its Jewish roots in Western culture and replicate that with something that resembles Catholicism. How far you diverge from primary world history will inform how different your clockpunk world's culture and so forth can be.

Western Europe certainly has a history of Pagan religion. The Roman State Religion and, among the armies, Mithraism and among the wealthy and curiosity seekers and deep seekers alike, the various Oriental mystery cults. They pretty much disappeared early on, and well in advance of Italy's renaissance. Knowledge of Pagan myths and so forth was well known and found expression in art and literature, and in many places continued to be expressed in local folklore; but it lacked anything like a theological foundation and a living tradition as religion.

As for hów to do it, my only suggestion on the matter would be to go with your first instinct of not going super detailed! If religion and in this case the history and profound effects of Catholicism in European society and Occidental culture in general are your meat-n-potatoes, then I'd say go whole hog! Come up with something cool to replace it. I think that would make for a fascinating world! I gather you're kind of starting up this project? Maybe right away is not the best time to work on that part of your world's history. You have the basic concept, just work at it little by little!
I think I will take your suggestion, though I am kicking around an idea for a religion kinda like Hinduism in that there is only one supreme and omnipotent god, but all the other “gods” are just different manifestations of that one god. That’ll probably be as close as it gets to Hinduism, though.

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Post by elemtilas »

LinguoFranco wrote:
09 May 2019 15:37
I think I will take your suggestion, though I am kicking around an idea for a religion kinda like Hinduism in that there is only one supreme and omnipotent god, but all the other “gods” are just different manifestations of that one god. That’ll probably be as close as it gets to Hinduism, though.
I'll certainly look forward to what you come up with!!

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

Reyzadren wrote:
09 May 2019 00:19
LinguoFranco wrote:
08 May 2019 20:01
I want my world to stand out and not be a carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture, but still put thought into it.
But why not just embrace the carbon copy fantasy counterpart culture? Imo, most clockpunk settings are already unique because clockpunk itself is quite an underused setting even within fantasy genres.

> Supernatural belief. Just add more folktales and/or urban legends that might and not be true, as well as some syncretism with religion.
I guess you’re right. I was somewhat concerned about the uniqueness in that a clockpunk world may still resemble a standard fantasy setting in some ways, especially if it leans fantasy. I’d imagine such a setting still having swords and knights and maybe even monarchies.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas »

LinguoFranco wrote:
09 May 2019 19:36
I was somewhat concerned about the uniqueness in that a clockpunk world may still resemble a standard fantasy setting in some ways, especially if it leans fantasy. I’d imagine such a setting still having swords and knights and maybe even monarchies.
The issue isn't so much thát your setting resembles fantasy with monarchs and swords and knights and so forth so much as what yóu do with the monarchs, swords and knights in your setting.

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Post by eldin raigmore »

IMO if >= 25% of your readers like your story (or >= 25% of your players like your game) you have an outstanding success.
If >= 10% of your readers or players like your story or game you still have a success.

If you get fanart or fanlit etc. that will prove someone was really into your conworld.

If >= 25% like it and >= 10% buy it, it’s a commercial success.

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Post by Keenir »

LinguoFranco wrote:
09 May 2019 15:37
I think I will take your suggestion, though I am kicking around an idea for a religion kinda like Hinduism in that there is only one supreme and omnipotent god, but all the other “gods” are just different manifestations of that one god. That’ll probably be as close as it gets to Hinduism, though.
That sounds like an ideal way to side-step some of the doctrinal debates that afflicted the Roman Empires*...thereby increasing philisophical diversity. Also, it would play nicely with the Roman love of syncreticism & the habit in the Abrahamic faiths of giving more than one nature to something (like how Enoch, a human who walked with God, sometimes became, or had all along been, the angel Metatron)

I look forwards to seeing what clockworks you come up with.



*=which had lots of watermills and other gear-full buildings...a possible clock ancestry.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Post by LinguoFranco »

Keenir wrote:
10 May 2019 03:31
LinguoFranco wrote:
09 May 2019 15:37
I think I will take your suggestion, though I am kicking around an idea for a religion kinda like Hinduism in that there is only one supreme and omnipotent god, but all the other “gods” are just different manifestations of that one god. That’ll probably be as close as it gets to Hinduism, though.
That sounds like an ideal way to side-step some of the doctrinal debates that afflicted the Roman Empires*...thereby increasing philisophical diversity. Also, it would play nicely with the Roman love of syncreticism & the habit in the Abrahamic faiths of giving more than one nature to something (like how Enoch, a human who walked with God, sometimes became, or had all along been, the angel Metatron)

I look forwards to seeing what clockworks you come up with.



*=which had lots of watermills and other gear-full buildings...a possible clock ancestry.
Alright, I've stumbled upon another obstacle. How the clockwork devices are powered. I could have it simply be all springs and cogs with wind-ups, but it might be hard to justify for larger inventions like robots or cars, so I'm thinking there should maybe be some kind of magic used as an energy source to keep the devices in motion. Alternatively, I could just handwave it. I just need to figure out if the magic system should be related to the clockwork mechanisms.

Magic for clockwork or just leave it unexplained?

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Post by elemtilas »

LinguoFranco wrote:
20 May 2019 02:57

Alright, I've stumbled upon another obstacle. How the clockwork devices are powered. I could have it simply be all springs and cogs with wind-ups, but it might be hard to justify for larger inventions like robots or cars, so I'm thinking there should maybe be some kind of magic used as an energy source to keep the devices in motion. Alternatively, I could just handwave it. I just need to figure out if the magic system should be related to the clockwork mechanisms.

Magic for clockwork or just leave it unexplained?
Up to you!

In The World, they have ordinary technological clockwork and also hybrid thaumological clockwork. The former involves pulling up a weight whose controlled descent powers the mechanism. A little wonky, but springs are even wonkier. The latter involves imprisoned Imps or Sprites or on some newer iterations, charmed squirrels whose movement powers the mechanism (among other higher functions, in the case of Imps). Also wonky, but for entirely different reasons.

I don't know specifically how the magic works (and neither do I know how a weight powers a clock!), so those aspects remain rather unexplained.

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Post by Keenir »

LinguoFranco wrote:
20 May 2019 02:57
Keenir wrote:
10 May 2019 03:31
LinguoFranco wrote:
09 May 2019 15:37
I think I will take your suggestion, though I am kicking around an idea for a religion kinda like Hinduism in that there is only one supreme and omnipotent god, but all the other “gods” are just different manifestations of that one god. That’ll probably be as close as it gets to Hinduism, though.
That sounds like an ideal way to side-step some of the doctrinal debates that afflicted the Roman Empires*...thereby increasing philisophical diversity. Also, it would play nicely with the Roman love of syncreticism & the habit in the Abrahamic faiths of giving more than one nature to something (like how Enoch, a human who walked with God, sometimes became, or had all along been, the angel Metatron)

I look forwards to seeing what clockworks you come up with.



*=which had lots of watermills and other gear-full buildings...a possible clock ancestry.
Alright, I've stumbled upon another obstacle. How the clockwork devices are powered. I could have it simply be all springs and cogs with wind-ups, but it might be hard to justify for larger inventions like robots or cars, so I'm thinking there should maybe be some kind of magic used as an energy source to keep the devices in motion. Alternatively, I could just handwave it. I just need to figure out if the magic system should be related to the clockwork mechanisms.

Magic for clockwork or just leave it unexplained?
A few solutions come to mind:
a. keep wind-ups, and just don't have people wind up their own cars - plug them into an auto-winder for all or part of the wind-up process.
b. the wind-up process is partly or fully internal, and the car winds itself as the car moves along.
c. steam. like trains and steampunk and other things. :)
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799

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Post by Zekoslav »

So, I've got another climate question (maybe I'm just overthinking this). I've got this rough sketch of a planet:

Image

All I'm entirely certain about is that there will be a circumpolar current around the north pole and a circum-equatorial current which doesn't exist on Earth. I'm not quite sure how the gyre in the northern temperate region will interact with the circum-polar and equatorial currents, though, and neither I'm sure what will happen in the ocean between the two continents.

The northern continent looks bound to be very humid, unless there's a serious rain shadow involved (and I plan not to have one). I wonder what the climate on it's southern coast will be like. It's common knowledge that east coasts have a humid subtropical, and west coasts a mediterranean climate around that latitude... but what about the center? They way the continents are spaced, it looks like there may be a permanent belt of high pressure south of the northern continent. This would likely cause northward winds when the continent becomes low pressure in summer... but would these winds carry moisture, or would the southern coast be more arid?
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