Guide to Sound Changes

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thetha
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by thetha »

I think it's likely (and more intuitive) that the first stop merely assimilated; /tt/ and /t:/ are qualitatively identitical. However, I know almost nothing about the history of Italian so I can't say for sure.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by eldin raigmore »

Teddy wrote:I think it's likely (and more intuitive) that the first stop merely assimilated; /tt/ and /t:/ are qualitatively identitical. However, I know almost nothing about the history of Italian so I can't say for sure.
How could one distinguish between your description and mine? Seems to me we're saying the same thing in different terms. Am I wrong?
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atman
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by atman »

Teddy wrote:I think it's likely (and more intuitive) that the first stop merely assimilated; /tt/ and /t:/ are qualitatively identitical. However, I know almost nothing about the history of Italian so I can't say for sure.
Yeah, it was a simple total assimilation.
eldin raigmore wrote: In Italian, what were originally two-stop clusters, have been replaced by a geminated stop; e.g. viz. cf. English "doctor" to Italian "dottore".
Is that not simplification by eliding one stop "followed by" fortition of the remaining stop?
And after your proposed lenition of /k/, how could the speakers of Old Italian tell apart the instances of intervocalic /t/ that came from Latin /t/ (and had to remain /t/) from the intervocalic /t/ that came from Latin stop clusters, and had to turn into /t:/?
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thetha
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by thetha »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Teddy wrote:I think it's likely (and more intuitive) that the first stop merely assimilated; /tt/ and /t:/ are qualitatively identitical. However, I know almost nothing about the history of Italian so I can't say for sure.
How could one distinguish between your description and mine? Seems to me we're saying the same thing in different terms. Am I wrong?
If I am reading your post correctly, you've added a superfluous step to the process. Your original question describes this process:

kt > t > tt

while I said it is more reasonable that

kt > tt directly.
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by Prinsessa »

atman wrote:
Teddy wrote:I think it's likely (and more intuitive) that the first stop merely assimilated; /tt/ and /t:/ are qualitatively identitical. However, I know almost nothing about the history of Italian so I can't say for sure.
Yeah, it was a simple total assimilation.
eldin raigmore wrote: In Italian, what were originally two-stop clusters, have been replaced by a geminated stop; e.g. viz. cf. English "doctor" to Italian "dottore".
Is that not simplification by eliding one stop "followed by" fortition of the remaining stop?
And after your proposed lenition of /k/, how could the speakers of Old Italian tell apart the instances of intervocalic /t/ that came from Latin /t/ (and had to remain /t/) from the intervocalic /t/ that came from Latin stop clusters, and had to turn into /t:/?
[+1]

Teddy is absolutely right here.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by eldin raigmore »

Prinsessa wrote:Teddy is absolutely right here.
(I think you mean "atman and Teddy are absolutely right here".)

Well, I learned something. I need to learn more. That's why I want to follow this thread.
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by Prinsessa »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Prinsessa wrote:Teddy is absolutely right here.
(I think you mean "atman and Teddy are absolutely right here".)
Well, along with the +1 I was trying to say "I agree with you agreeing with Teddy". :p
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by Man in Space »

I hope this isn't too forward of me, but may I offer the Index Diachronica for those interested in lists of natlang sound changes?
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AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
thetha
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by thetha »

Yeah that is a very helpful resource I'm sure. Not overly forward at all. [:)]
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by GrandPiano »

Ooh, thank you! I've been wanting to look into diachronic sound changes for a while now! [:D]
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by qwed117 »

I have a question about breathy-voice and aspiration
I want to have a chain like such
tʰ-->t-->dʱ-->d
or like such
tʰ-->t-->d-->dʱ

Which one is more reasonable?
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GrandPiano
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by GrandPiano »

qwed117 wrote:I have a question about breathy-voice and aspiration
I want to have a chain like such
tʰ-->t-->dʱ-->d
or like such
tʰ-->t-->b-->bʱ

Which one is more reasonable?
I would guess the first one, because [t] and [d] have the same place of articulation, while [t] and do not.
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qwed117
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by qwed117 »

GrandPiano wrote:
qwed117 wrote:I have a question about breathy-voice and aspiration
I want to have a chain like such
tʰ-->t-->dʱ-->d
or like such
tʰ-->t-->b-->bʱ

Which one is more reasonable?
I would guess the first one, because [t] and [d] have the same place of articulation, while [t] and do not.

That is my inability to differentiate d from b. [xD]
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sangi39
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by sangi39 »

It's a difficult question to answer, I think.

Wikipedia places breathy/murmured voice between full voicelessness and full voicedness:

Code: Select all

Open glottis	[t]	voiceless (full airstream)
                [d̤]	breathy voice
                [d̥]	slack voice
Sweet spot	[d]	modal voice (maximum vibration)
                [d̬]	stiff voice
                [d̰]	creaky voice
Closed glottis	[ʔ͡t]	glottal closure (blocked airstream
Breathy/murmured voice would then (mechanically, i.e. the way the sound is actually made) would lie between fully voiced and fully voiceless.

Evidence from the Armenian dialects suggests that /t/ > /d/ or /d/ > /t/ could happen despite the presence of an existing /dʱ/, though, with Armenian in Erevan having /tʰ dʱ t/ and Armenian in Sebastia having /tʰ dʱ d/ instead. This could be because, while mechanically different from each other, breathy/murmured voice is supposedly acoustically similar to aspiration (a similar explanation might be used in cases where ejectives and implosives appear to behave as if they were one group, as they do in the Mayan languages. Proto-Mayan, for example, is reconstructed as having /t' k' q'/ alongside /ɓ/ instead of /p'/).

So I think either option could be said to be plausible in their own way.
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by qwed117 »

I've been trying to reconstruct Sardinian evolution, but I reached a problem in it.
Here's what I have so far (SCA2 Notation)

Code: Select all

[vw]/β/_
b/β/V_V
ae/e/_
h//[#C]_
m//_#
L/U/_
l[ld]/ɖɖ/V_V
nd/ɳɖ/V_V
f/h/#_
l→r/C_
er/re/_#
v→b/#_
qu/p/_V
gu/b/_V
rV/ur/#_
[ae]u/o/_
C//_²
i→ʒ/#_V
k/ʦ/#_[íi]
Now the word in question is "civitatem". In Sardinian the word becomes "tzitade". The problem I have is that I get "ʦíβitate". How did other Romance languages deal with this?
Also, in the word "aqua" (which goes to abba in Sardinian) I get "appa". How does intervocalic voicing occur in abba, but only in the last syllable of tzitade (like Romansch citad and Italian cittade?)
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by Egerius »

Spoiler:
qwed117 wrote:I've been trying to reconstruct Sardinian evolution, but I reached a problem in it.

Now the word in question is "civitatem". In Sardinian the word becomes "tzitade". The problem I have is that I get "ʦíβitate". How did other Romance languages deal with this?
Also, in the word "aqua" (which goes to abba in Sardinian) I get "appa". How does intervocalic voicing occur in abba, but only in the last syllable of tzitade (like Romansch citad and Italian cittade?)
I think stress plays a role, which is mostly on the penultimate syllable (CIVITÁTEM).
As far as I know, unstressed syllables tend to erode faster than stressed ones.
Old Tuscan (=Old Italian) cittade > Italian città
The fricatives [β ð ɣ] are quite likely to be dropped, especially between the same two vowels.

Spanish didn't elide the [w], but the first ; thus we have [θjuˈðað̠], with the final dental fricative being dropped in casual speech.

With abba, there must have been an intermediate step ÁQUAM > *agwa > abba, otherwise it would have been unvoiced (**appa), and closer to Romanian (apă).
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Avo
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by Avo »

What Egerius said. Unstressed high vowels were often dropped inside words in Vulgar Latin times already. The canonical example would be CL vetulus vs VL veclus which is even attested in the Appendix Pobi.
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qwed117
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by qwed117 »

Egerius wrote:
Spoiler:
qwed117 wrote:I've been trying to reconstruct Sardinian evolution, but I reached a problem in it.

Now the word in question is "civitatem". In Sardinian the word becomes "tzitade". The problem I have is that I get "ʦíβitate". How did other Romance languages deal with this?
Also, in the word "aqua" (which goes to abba in Sardinian) I get "appa". How does intervocalic voicing occur in abba, but only in the last syllable of tzitade (like Romansch citad and Italian cittade?)
I think stress plays a role, which is mostly on the penultimate syllable (CIVITÁTEM).
As far as I know, unstressed syllables tend to erode faster than stressed ones.
Old Tuscan (=Old Italian) cittade > Italian città
The fricatives [β ð ɣ] are quite likely to be dropped, especially between the same two vowels.

Spanish didn't elide the [w], but the first ; thus we have [θju̯ˈðað̠], with the final dental fricative being dropped in casual speech.

With abba, there must have been an intermediate step ÁQUAM > *agwa > abba, otherwise it would have been unvoiced (**appa), and closer to Romanian (apă).

Thanks, regarding civitatem, the stress is on the initial i (CÍVITATEM). Did stress shift in Vulgar Latin from Classical Latin?
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Egerius
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by Egerius »

qwed117 wrote:Thanks, regarding civitatem, the stress is on the initial i (CÍVITATEM). Did stress shift in Vulgar Latin from Classical Latin?
I think you use the accusative with the stress from the nominative (CĪVITĀS vs. CĪVITĀTEM – bold = stressed vowel).
Some words experienced a stress shift, mainly those which had CiV > CjV syllable structures on the pre-penultimate syllable (e.g. FĪLÍOLUS [fiːˈlɪ.ɔ.ɫʊs] > FĪLIÓLUS [fiː.ˈljɔ.ɫʊs] > (Old Italian figliuolo) > Italian figliolo), and another case in which stress shifts to the next syllable with a stop + liquid + short vowel (in the penultimate syllable, where the stress moves to) (e.g. TĒNEBRAS > TĒNÉBRAS > Spanish tinieblas [tiˈnjeβlas]).
Those were the only examples of a stress shift in Vulgar Latin.
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qwed117
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Re: Guide to Sound Changes

Post by qwed117 »

Egerius wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Thanks, regarding civitatem, the stress is on the initial i (CÍVITATEM). Did stress shift in Vulgar Latin from Classical Latin?
I think you use the accusative with the stress from the nominative (CĪVITĀS vs. CĪVITĀTEM – bold = stressed vowel).
Oh, thanks. I hadn't known that. [xP]
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