Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

Post by Znex »

Lao Kou wrote:
XXXVII wrote:Does one alternate which verb is used for say... an acoustic bass/cello which can be played either way?
When you use a bow, you 拉 (la1).
But that doesn't even use the radical for bow. [:O]
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

Post by Lao Kou »

Znex wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
XXXVII wrote:Does one alternate which verb is used for say... an acoustic bass/cello which can be played either way?
When you use a bow, you 拉 (la1).
But that doesn't even use the radical for bow. [:O]
What can I tell ya. You try to shoehorn the whole of the universe and human experience into 200-odd radicals, you're bound to run into things you might wish were handled otherwise. [;)]
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:
Spoiler:
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I'd like to think it's okay.
It's extremely okay! [tick]

Just for yucks, you might want to try writing < 了 > so it looks a little more like a < ʒ >. Not quite that exaggeratedly bulbous, but using a clock as a reference, you write the top stroke the same, but instead of dropping a plumb line for the second, you start it at about 12:00 or 1:00 and gently curve it to 5:00 or 6:00 before upturning with the hook. It'll soften it up, make it look a little more natural and a little less "I'm copying this right out of the primer.", and may even prove to be easier to write in the long run. Experiment a little. If you don't like the way it looks, you can always go back to the status quo. All else is ducky. [:)]

他的龜吃了金的鑰!

is an deliciously awesome character, but I suspect it's a bound morpheme or pretty darned close. "key" is rendered 鑰匙 (yao4shi·) (匙 is also read "chi2" in 湯匙 (tang1chi2), "soup spoon"). And I know you love 'em, but I'd drop the 的. So:

他的龜吃了金鑰匙!

不是,它不吃了。钥在那里!

Since 了 indicates a change in state, "不 + verb + 了" doesn't mean "didn't verb", but "(was verbing/did verb/used to verb but) doesn't verb/isn't verbing anymore" (the situation has changed). To negate a completed state with 了, you use 没(有). Here, I like to think of it as comparable to English. "The turtle's eaten the key!" "No, it hasn't." So:

没有,它沒(有)吃。鑰匙在那裡!
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

Lao Kou wrote:It's extremely okay! [tick]
Woot!!
Just for yucks, you might want to try writing < 了 > so it looks a little more like a < ʒ >. Not quite that exaggeratedly bulbous, but using a clock as a reference, you write the top stroke the same, but instead of dropping a plumb line for the second, you start it at about 12:00 or 1:00 and gently curve it to 5:00 or 6:00 before upturning with the hook. It'll soften it up, make it look a little more natural and a little less "I'm copying this right out of the primer.", and may even prove to be easier to write in the long run. Experiment a little. If you don't like the way it looks, you can always go back to the status quo. All else is ducky. [:)]
I will have to experiment. <了> is actually one of the characters that I am least pleased with when I look back at my writing. Yeah, it may be technically correct, but it never seems to fit organically with the rest of my writing. I will have to show you some of my problem characters... basically anything that has 2 or more vertical elements. I would show you the specific ones I am thinking of, but my work closed off access to Google Translate for some reason due to a certificate problem?!? And I use that to type in Chinese on the work PC.

Suggestions for an alternative?

Soooo, is the distinction betwixt 不 and 没 sorta like a Spanish learner's issues with "ser" vs. "estar" and/or "por" vs. "para"?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:I would show you the specific ones I am thinking of, but my work closed off access to Google Translate for some reason due to a certificate problem?!? And I use that to type in Chinese on the work PC.

Suggestions for an alternative?
I'm really not the right person to ask. I used to do that back in the States, too, and I still do that to convert my simplifed sentences into traditional. There are hints that pop up that there are more direct ways to do this on both computers I use, but I have yet to noodle around and find out how that all works. :roll:
Soooo, is the distinction betwixt 不 and 没 sorta like a Spanish learner's issues with "ser" vs. "estar" and/or "por" vs. "para"?
Por vs. para ... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! [:P]

It's pretty straightforward, I think. 没 is only used to negate 有. Since the negative of 了 for a completed action is 没有, and since the only verb 没 is used with is 有, you can drop the 有, which means if you see 没 before another verb, it means it hasn't happened yet (or hadn't/didn't at some point in the past). That's the Cliffs Notes version, but compared to por vs. para, I think it's a day at the beach. [:)]
Last edited by Lao Kou on 21 Mar 2014 02:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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I think I've finally found a simplified character that I like better than the traditional: 画.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:I think I've finally found a simplified character that I like better than the traditional: 画.

looks like a book on a table with an arrow(?) pointing the right...
I can only geuss it has something to do with reading or reading direction...

that or the box divided into four sections is not a book but a window, and it's in a building and theres a wind or a roof over it...

I know nothing of Chinese character, but they are supposed to be ideograms/logograms right?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Yep, logograms and ideograms are used.

The most common character is made up of two parts: one for meaning, and one for sound. Since this example is a simplified form of 畫 not all the rules apply to it. In this case, it is using the 田 not for field (traditional Chinese rice fields were split into sections) but instead for the visual. 画 means painting. To me, "field" is used for the canvas, and the lines around it for a border or frame.

Also, when trying to decode characters, its important to remember that many characters have been corrupted over the centuries and now resemble things that when they were created didn't resemble. Take 老 for instance. It means "old," and at one time the lower right component was a beard, now it looks like 匕 which means "ladle."
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Is: "你沒問也嗎, 為甚麼沒有?" something like "you hadn't asked either! why not?"

And also, what is 啊 used for?
Lao Kou wrote:I'm really not the right person to ask. I used to do that back in the States, too, and I still do that to convert my simplifed sentences into traditional. There are hints that pop up that there are more direct ways to do this on both computers I use, but I have yet to noodle around and find out how that all works. :roll:
This seems to work okay as a replacement: http://www.purpleculture.net/online-chinese-input/ (Just have to remember to click "Traditional.")

The important thing at work, is that I don't want to/can't install actual Chinese language support through Windows. I haven't messed with it on my home PC, but know that it isn't too hard to do. I believe once it is set up you can toggle betwixt them with hitting [Shift] x 5.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:Is: "你沒問也嗎, 為甚麼沒有?" something like "you hadn't asked either! why not?"
Are you sure it's not:

你沒問嗎, 為甚麼沒有? :?:
You didn't ask him? Why not/Why didn't you?

That would make a whole lot more sense. 也 can't go where you've got it.
And also, what is 啊 used for?
It "reduces the forcefulness" (Li & Thompson) of any utterance you attach it to. It's a sentence final particle which makes you sound less curt.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:It "reduces the forcefulness" (Li & Thompson) of any utterance you attach it to. It's a sentence final particle which makes you sound less curt.
Well, that's stupid 啊.

(J/K)
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:Well, that's stupid 啊.
Compare and contrast the use of "la" in Malaysian and Singaporean English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_an ... an_English

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singlish#Lah

If you're going to code-switch as you did, a well-placed 啦 (itself a combo of 了 + 啊) works wonders. "Well that's just stupid 啦."

L&T go on about 啊 a bit. I'll type up some highlights for you later.
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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So... I started using a discarded flashcard for 書 as a bookmark... I added 籤 for kicks.

Also, Google Translate now works on my work PC. So I don't know what the issue was, but I'm glad it's fixed here. The other translator worked, but I wasn't as comfortable with it. [:)]

I think I might take this as an opportunity to post my new inventory of characters since my last post... since I am almost to 190 characters now (in Base 12).
Spoiler:
分, 粉, 米, 刀, 衣, 裡, 鐘, 立, 童, 里, 鉛, 表, 錶, 或, 國, 中, 羊, 美, 夕, 卜, 外, 西, 貝, 目, 看, 貴, 更, 便, 且, 宜, 要, 買, 賣, 士, 阝, 匕, 老, 者, 都, 廾, 卄, 匚, 甘, 匸, 匹, 入, 林, 麻, 麼, 么, 奇, 椅, 日, 杲, 桌, 東, 古, 固, 個, 那, 這, 辶, 糹, 戔, 錢, 吉, 合, 水, 給, 殳, 沒, 汗, 有, 月, 欠, 草, 雚, 歡, 青, 請, 寸, 身, 射, 謝, 止, 足, 跟, 喜, 加, 和, 如, 何, 說, 千, 重, 董, 懂
Last edited by Thrice Xandvii on 19 Mar 2014 06:25, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:So... I started using a discarded flashcard for 書 as a bookmark... I added 籤 for kicks.
[:D] Next sign you're in deep: putting Chinese labels on jars in the spice rack...
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:[:D] Next sign you're in deep: putting Chinese labels on jars in the spice rack...
I work at a residential facility with adolescents... I've been writing notes on their doors in Chinese for weeks. Only partly because I love white boards (which they all have on their doors).

My last message: 你有二隻龜。
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:I've been writing notes on their doors in Chinese for weeks.
You got it baaad, man! [B)]
My last message: 你有二隻龜。
From the you-just-can't-win department...

Before a 'measure word' (or whatever you like to call them), the word for "two" is not 二, but 兩 (liang3), so:

你有隻龜。
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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Ummmm... what? [:S]
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:Ummmm... what? [:S]
二 is only used for numbering things off. Compare the usage of 两 vs. 二 in this (which I blatantly stole off a dictionary): 有两个论据支持以文件系统模型来实现 应用软件,一是软件已经以这种方式设计和实现;是用户已经习惯于这样 。
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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I had to toss it in a translator to make any sense of it, but I see what you mean. My "what" was more in reference to the curve ball of finally thinking I had things right than anything else!

Anyone have a why on this? I'd think, if anything, that 一would have evolved a separate form to use as "a." Aside from in accounting, do any other numbers behave like this?

Oh... and when a measure word is used, where does the adjective go? It feels like the measure word links the number to the noun, it seems odd to me that you'd break it up with an adjective.

So...

你有兩隻龜小 or ...小兩隻龜 or ...兩隻小龜?
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Re: Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:Anyone have a why on this?
Not I.
Aside from in accounting, do any other numbers behave like this?
I don't think accounting has anything to do with it.
Edit: Oh, unless you're referring to banking numbers, in which case, they all do it, but that's a different kettle of fish (more elaborate characters to avoid bank fraud, read the same way as the regular ones).
I should also mention that it's just "two" that does this; other numbers ending in "two" (twenty-two, 102, etc.) don't exhibit this pre-measure-word behavior (Cf. premier but vingt-et-unième)
Oh... and when a measure word is used, where does the adjective go? It feels like the measure word links the number to the noun, it seems odd to me that you'd break it up with an adjective. So...

你有兩隻龜小
No. Just no.
Edit: Oh, unless you wanted to go for something like: 你有兩隻龜小。("The two turtles you have are small.")
兩隻小龜
[tick] Most common. Nothing odd at all about breaking it up.

Five golden rings
Four calling birds
Three French hens
Two turtledoves... (2014 redux: two small turtles) [:D]

That said...
小兩隻龜
Maybe with a 的:小兩隻龜
Okay. (Though native informant not loving it because it's not "concise enough".) I tend to opt for this when the modifier is "heavier", but both before and after the measure word is grammatically viable with considerations of pragmatics, emphasis, yadda, factoring into the mix.
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