Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2
Posted: 31 Mar 2020 19:10
Ok, I'm only starting this now, but here's my attempt at hw 1. (I tried to do it with no notes, it didn't go well)
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Apologies, I've been away from this thread for quite a while! A spěr che tè e la tǒ famîglia e amîg a sî sicûr e san (guessing on the vocab here, hopefully I'm close)
Oof that's a bit of a doozy of a cluster! Even indla is a bit tricky.
I can't see if this was covered in the phonology section, but it looks like the nasal vowels in can and canzoun count as ending in consonants, so we don't see ed reduce. I'm guessing an [n] shows up as well. Does the vowel stay nasal though?
Now that's a nice word!
I hope you or Alessio don't mind if I try correcting this. Here's what you got stuck on: long vowels are always stressed; the overdot on the sibilants marks voice, they're voiceless otherwise; <z ż> mark the dentals /s̪ z̪/ while <s ṡ> marks the retracted /s̠ z̠/; <ê ô> mark the mid-open /εː ɔː/ while <ǒ ě> mark the mid-closed /eː oː/.
Yeah, I don't mind. I realized all of this *after* doing the pset, because I was trying to do it w/o any looking back, which makes it not easy. I should have realized that retraction differentiated the <s z> sets, like Basque, not voicing.kanejam wrote: ↑07 May 2020 00:18I hope you or Alessio don't mind if I try correcting this. Here's what you got stuck on: long vowels are always stressed; the overdot on the sibilants marks voice, they're voiceless otherwise; <z ż> mark the dentals /s̪ z̪/ while <s ṡ> marks the retracted /s̠ z̠/; <ê ô> mark the mid-open /εː ɔː/ while <ǒ ě> mark the mid-closed /eː oː/.
That makes a lot of sense! Would I add a euphonic <e> to all unstressed object pronouns, not just for "you?" For example:Alessio wrote: ↑28 May 2020 18:41 Your question makes sense. The rule is:
Unstressed subject pronoun + negating particle + unstressed object pronoun + verb + ménga/brîṡa
Thus the correct answer to your question is 1, although /tv/ is a "difficult" cluster, so an <e> will most certainly be inserted - an et vàd ménga. There is no fake gemination though, I guess since the <e> is euphonic it isn't taken into consideration for this specific rule.
We can gloss this phrase as:
a-n et vàd ménga
1SG.US-NEG 2SG.UO see.3SG.PRES NEG
The important thing to notice here is that <a> and <an> merge, so it looks like there is no USP in the sentence, but it is actually there.
And yes, number 2. does indeed mean "you don't see".
You already know that spelling is a bit of a pain in the ass and has no real standard, so by all means, look at the morphology rather than at the orthography. Other possible variations of mine include:
a n'et vàd ménga
an e-t vàd ménga
a n'e-t vàd ménga
and so on.
Hope this clears up the doubt!
Watch out: <eg> is a dative pronoun, not an accusative (which would be al for masculine objects and la for feminine objects). Also, vàder is a 2nd conjugation verb, so the three singular persons are all vàd. vàda is the subjunctive, which we haven't studied yet.That makes a lot of sense! Would I add a euphonic <e> to all unstressed object pronouns, not just for "you?" For example:
Et n'em vàd ménga. = You don't see me.
Al n'eg vàda ménga. = He doesn't see her.
La n'eg vàda ménga. = She doesn't see him.
A n'es vdî ménga. = You all don't see us.
I n'ev vàden ménga. = They don't see you all.
You have been so helpful! I love your language, and I will continue to follow this thread closely. Additionally, thank you for correcting me on the accidental usage of the dative instead of the UOP.Alessio wrote: ↑29 May 2020 21:24Watch out: <eg> is a dative pronoun, not an accusative (which would be al for masculine objects and la for feminine objects). Also, vàder is a 2nd conjugation verb, so the three singular persons are all vàd. vàda is the subjunctive, which we haven't studied yet.That makes a lot of sense! Would I add a euphonic <e> to all unstressed object pronouns, not just for "you?" For example:
Et n'em vàd ménga. = You don't see me.
Al n'eg vàda ménga. = He doesn't see her.
La n'eg vàda ménga. = She doesn't see him.
A n'es vdî ménga. = You all don't see us.
I n'ev vàden ménga. = They don't see you all.
As for your question, the rules for adding the e- are a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately. Sometimes you have to use it in a specific way. I'll rewrite your examples in the correct form:
T'an (u)m vàd ménga. - You don't see me.
Here you were a bit unlucky. You might recall from my previous lessons that /m/ can be syllabic, and it happens in this sentence. However, since /m/ is a labial, speakers that can't pronounce it as a syllabic consonant or whose dialect does not offer this opportunity will add an /u/, rather than an /e/.
An la vàd ménga. - He doesn't see her.
There's not much to say about this if not that <al> + <an> gives <an>.
La n'al vàd ménga. - She doesn't see him.
You would have got this one right if not for the <eg> vs. <al> thing. By the way, la n'eg vàd ménga means she can't see or she is blind, since <eg> is also a particle indicating place (corresponding to Italian ci or French y) that sometimes appears in ideomatic expressions like this one.
An se vdî ménga. - You (pl) don't see us.
For one-letter words, that mostly have three versions (C, eC and Ce), the euphonic <e> should generally be placed on the side that touches the hardest cluster. /svd/ is not allowed in Emilian, thus you should put the /e/ after the /s/ rather than before it.
I n'ev vàden ménga. - They don't see you (pl).
This one is correct. Good job!
At the end of the day, yes you do use the euphonic <e> quite a lot in these examples, but watch out for its position!
In English they're normally called "phrasal prepositions" or "compound prepositions".Alessio wrote: ↑16 May 2020 13:39 LESSON 11
PREPOSITIONS. PART 2
A side note: I know that "prepositional phrase" means something else in English. I just couldn't come up with a better term, so I used a direct translation of what we say in Italian (locuzione prepositiva). If anybody has any suggestions, I will gladly use the good old find and replace function and clear this up.
Wow, this is awesome! It definitely helps hearing how the sibilants sound. It's how I imagine the Basque equivalents to sound (although I don't know if that's correct or not). I have to say I can't consistently hear the long vowels as longer than the short vowels.
The English Wikipedia article on Emilian lists the dental sibilants as /θ ð/ but perhaps that's more of a Bolognese or an Eastern thing (or Wiki is just wrong)?Alessio wrote: ↑01 Jun 2020 14:58 [θ] and [ð] are common realizations of /s̪/ and /z̪/ for some (say, 10%) speakers of dialects that have these sounds. However, to a native speaker it will sound like a lisp (which it mostly is, for those speakers: they usually have difficulties with /ts dz/ in Italian as well).
The difference, in my understanding, is that /s̪ z̪/ are sibilants whereas /θ ð/ are not, but otherwise the point of articulation is the same. You might already know that sibilants differ from the rest of the fricatives in that the airflow is directed towards the (lower) teeth, so maybe you should try that.
Aw shucks Is there a reason it's ed rather than de (since there's only a consonant on it's right side).
Now that's a cluster! Is it pronounced with mixed voicing or does one assimilate?
Code: Select all
0 żêro
1 un (m), óna (f)
2 dû (m), dǒ (f)
3 trî (m), trě (f)
4 quâter
5 zinc
6 sě
7 sêt
8 ôt
9 nǒv
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10 děṡ
11 óndeṡ
12 dàdeṡ
13 tràdeṡ
14 quatôrdeṡ
15 quéndeṡ
16 sàdeṡ
17 darsêt
18 deṡdôt
19 deṡnǒv
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20 vint
30 treinta
40 quaranta
50 zinquanta
60 (e-)ssanta
70 stanta
80 utanta
90 nuvanta
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100 zeint
200 duṡeint
300 tarṡeint
400 quaterzeint
500 zinczeint
600 sezeint
700 setzeint
800 otzeint
900 novzeint
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1000 mél
2000 duméla
3000 triméla
4000 quaterméla
5000 zincméla
6000 seméla
7000 setméla
8000 otméla
9000 novméla
...
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prém
secànd
těrz
quêrt
quint
sěst
sêtim
utêv
nôn
děcim
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ongěṡm
dadgěṡm
tradgěṡm
...
vintěṡm
treintěṡm
...