Syntax

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Brain
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Syntax

Post by Brain »

Hello,

I'm just trying to construct my first language and I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. I'm trying to create the syntax and here's what I have so far:

sentence
  • clause punctuation
clause
  • simple-clause [conjunction simple-clause]
simple-clause
  • verb-phrase argument*
relative-clause
  • comma clause [comma]
verb-phrase
  • verb adverb*
argument
  • preposition* noun-phrase adjective*
  • relative-clause
noun-phrase
  • noun [relative-clause]
:pol: native | :eng: :fra: fluent | :esp: :deu: :lat: :con: basic
Brain
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Re: Syntax

Post by Brain »

Sorry, I should have posted this in the Conlang section. :oops: Can you move it please?
:pol: native | :eng: :fra: fluent | :esp: :deu: :lat: :con: basic
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Maximillian
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Re: Syntax

Post by Maximillian »

What is this supposed to mean?
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Testyal
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Re: Syntax

Post by Testyal »

He's trying to construct the syntax for his language but it's not that clear. Try and use a tree diagram, or research syntax more, find out the syntax of polish or english.
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Re: Syntax

Post by Maximillian »

testyal1 wrote:Try and use a tree diagram, or research syntax more, find out the syntax of polish or english.
Is this recommendation for me or for Brain?
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Re: Syntax

Post by Testyal »

For brain
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Brain
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Re: Syntax

Post by Brain »

I'm not sure what you find unclear. It's just a BNF grammar. I use the following conventions:
  • italics : terminal symbol
  • [...] : optional elements
  • * : zero or more times
  • alternatives on separate lines
:pol: native | :eng: :fra: fluent | :esp: :deu: :lat: :con: basic
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Re: Syntax

Post by Maximillian »

Comma is not syntax.
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Re: Syntax

Post by Trailsend »

Maximillian wrote:Comma is not syntax.
Is it not? If a pragmatic pause is obligatory before relative clauses, it feels like that should be a valid, if perhaps unorthodox, documentation.

@ Brain: I may be misunderstanding your notation, but shouldn't "adverb" be in italics?
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Re: Syntax

Post by Brain »

Thanks. Yes, I want to make the pause explicit. If you like I can change "comma" to "pause".

I also found it rather strange to have the relative clause inserted between the noun and adjective, so I moved some things around. I also added quantifiers, which are similar to the English determiners "every", "any", "all", etc.

Here's the updated syntax:

sentence
  • clause pause
clause
  • simple-clause [conjunction simple-clause]
simple-clause
  • verb-phrase argument*
relative-clause
  • pause clause [pause]
verb-phrase
  • verb adverb*
argument
  • noun-phrase [relative-clause]
  • relative-clause
noun -phrase
  • preposition* quantifier-phrase* noun adjective-phrase*
adjective-phrase
  • adjective adverb
quantifier-phrase
  • quantifier adverb
:pol: native | :eng: :fra: fluent | :esp: :deu: :lat: :con: basic
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Re: Syntax

Post by Trailsend »

Your addition of preposition to the noun-phrase seems a little odd--what function do prepositions serve in this language? Assuming they are analogous to English, in noun-phrases where they appear, is the noun-phrase's noun the object of the preposition? This seems bizarre, since it apparently indicates that prepositional phrases can function as full noun phrases:

S -->
C -->
VP A -->
sold NP NP-->
sold PREP N N-->
sold above table it

It seems like this noun phrase, "above table," shouldn't be able to function as an argument of sold.

Perhaps prepositions would be better assigned to a separate formula:

noun -phrase
  • quantifier-phrase* noun adjective-phrase*
adjective-phrase
  • adjective adverb
  • preposition noun-phrase
adverb-phrase
  • adverb-phrase* adverb
  • preposition noun-phrase
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Brain
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Re: Syntax

Post by Brain »

Trailsend wrote: sold above table it
It seems like this noun phrase, "above table," shouldn't be able to function as an argument of sold.
Why not? I don't see any problem with this actually.
Trailsend wrote: Perhaps prepositions would be better assigned to a separate formula:

noun -phrase
  • quantifier-phrase* noun adjective-phrase*
adjective-phrase
  • adjective adverb
  • preposition noun-phrase
adverb-phrase
  • adverb-phrase* adverb
  • preposition noun-phrase
But then you can use a noun phrase as an adjective or adverb. I'm not sure that makes sense.
:pol: native | :eng: :fra: fluent | :esp: :deu: :lat: :con: basic
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Re: Syntax

Post by Systemzwang »

looks like your language only permits adjectives to be used in noun phrases, and never independent of them?

So you never have any verbs that take adjectives for complements?
Brain
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Re: Syntax

Post by Brain »

Well, I'm not a big fan of the copula adjective construction, so yes that was intended. As for other verbs I want to have a standard way of creating adverbs from adjectives.
:pol: native | :eng: :fra: fluent | :esp: :deu: :lat: :con: basic
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Re: Syntax

Post by Trailsend »

Brain wrote:
Trailsend wrote: sold above table it
It seems like this noun phrase, "above table," shouldn't be able to function as an argument of sold.
Why not? I don't see any problem with this actually.
This is why I asked you what role your prepositions serve :P

An "above table" cannot sell anything, unless your language allows for a sort of implied relative pronoun, such that sold above table it translates to "The person who is above the table sold it," and sold he above table translates to "He sold the stuff that was above the table."
Brain wrote: But then you can use a noun phrase as an adjective or adverb. I'm not sure that makes sense.
Not a noun phrase, a prepositional phrase containing a noun phrase. That's certainly sensible.

Prepositional phrase as adverb:

S -->
C -->
SC -->
VP ARG -->
V AdvP NP -->
runs PREP NP he -->
runs like wind he

"He runs like the wind."

Prepositional phrase as adjective:

S -->
C -->
SC -->
VP ARG ARG -->
V NP NP -->
sold N N AdjP -->
sold he vase PREP NP -->
sold he vase on N -->
sold he vase on table

"He sold the vase on the table."


NOTE: I'm making these translations based on limited information. I'm guessing from your syntax description that the language is VSO, but that may not be the case. Your language may not handle "like" as an adverb, and if not, I'd be interested to see how it does. These are merely meant as demonstrations of how prepositional phrases function in other languages, and how that might correspond to yours.
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Re: Syntax

Post by Systemzwang »

Brain wrote:Well, I'm not a big fan of the copula adjective construction, so yes that was intended. As for other verbs I want to have a standard way of creating adverbs from adjectives.
but there's hundreds of possible non-copula adjective constructions where adjectives pop up outside of NPs in languages. If you read, you'll notice I never mentioned copulas.
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