Omzinian Scrap thread

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Omzinesý
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

My next project will be something morphologically complex.
My latest projects have been morphonologically relatively simple, which allows me concentrate on syntax and still keep the lang consistent. Too complex projects tend to explode and I get messed with them. In Kahichali I just couldn't handle the incorporations.
But the next project will have cross referencing on verbs, many conjugations, a complex TAME system etc. One alternative is to revive Mhilva http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Mhilva
Things would be easier, if I had a proto-lang from which to derive the descendant's complex paradigms, but I never do.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore »

Omzinesý wrote: 30 Jan 2019 08:33 My next project will be something morphologically complex.
My latest projects have been morphonologically relatively simple, which allows me concentrate on syntax and still keep the lang consistent. Too complex projects tend to explode and I get messed with them. In Kahichali I just couldn't handle the incorporations.
But the next project will have cross referencing on verbs, many conjugations, a complex TAME system etc. One alternative is to revive Mhilva http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Mhilva
Things would be easier, if I had a proto-lang from which to derive the descendant's complex paradigms, but I never do.
1. Assuming the TAM in TAME stands for Tense, Aspect, and Modality/Mode/Mood; what does the E stand for?
2. Could it stand for Evidentiality?
3. Do you plan to mention Voice and/or Polarity?

————

(Other minor features of verbs include mirativity, validationality, and pluractionality. I’m sure you already know that.)
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

eldin raigmore wrote: 31 Jan 2019 05:56
Omzinesý wrote: 30 Jan 2019 08:33 My next project will be something morphologically complex.
My latest projects have been morphonologically relatively simple, which allows me concentrate on syntax and still keep the lang consistent. Too complex projects tend to explode and I get messed with them. In Kahichali I just couldn't handle the incorporations.
But the next project will have cross referencing on verbs, many conjugations, a complex TAME system etc. One alternative is to revive Mhilva http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Mhilva
Things would be easier, if I had a proto-lang from which to derive the descendant's complex paradigms, but I never do.
1. Assuming the TAM in TAME stands for Tense, Aspect, and Modality/Mode/Mood; what does the E stand for?
2. Could it stand for Evidentiality?
3. Do you plan to mention Voice and/or Polarity?



————

(Other minor features of verbs include mirativity, validationality, and pluractionality. I’m sure you already know that.)
1)2) Yes, yes TAME is a category Tense-Aspect-Mood-Evidentiality. It's "generally used", not my invention. They often coappear in one category. Though petsonally I have started to think of the mood has any single meaning and should still be devided in smaller categories.

3) Voice, in the prototypical situation, is different from TAME. I don't know if it will appear.

How does validationality differ from evidentiality?
Pluractionality is a new handy term, thanks. I have used the category without knowing the name.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by eldin raigmore »

I tri d to answer and lost it. I’ll try again.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

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Omzinesý wrote: 31 Jan 2019 11:54 1)2) Yes, yes TAME is a category Tense-Aspect-Mood-Evidentiality. It's "generally used", not my invention. They often coappear in one category. Though personally I have started to think of the mood has any single meaning and should still be devided in smaller categories.
3) Voice, in the prototypical situation, is different from TAME. I don't know if it will appear.
How does validationality differ from evidentiality?
Pluractionality is a new handy term, thanks. I have used the category without knowing the name.
I have heard of and seen TAM. I had never previously seen nor heard of TAME.

Among verbal features, the “big five” are, so I have read, in alphabetical order (if English is our metalanguage):
* Aspect
* Modality/Mode/Mood
* Polarity
* Tense
* Voice

(Often these are “the big six”, because various grammarians, in describing various languages, find it necessary to distinguish one of Modality or Mode or Mood from the other two.)

I once read a definition of “verbal auxiliary word” which required a word to help specify one of those “big five (or six)” features, possibly along with others, in order to be called a verbal auxiliary word.

The minor verbal features of which I am aware and can call to mind readily at the moment are:
* evidentiality
* mirativity
* validationality
* pluractionality

See https://books.google.com/books?id=LC3Df ... cs&f=false and following pp., for a discussion of evidentiality, mirativity, and validationality, and the difficulty of teasing them apart from TAM, and in particular of telling evidentiality from validationality.

Also see https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/q ... -accidents for a more sensible order than “alphabetical order by English term”.

Evidentiality and mirativity and validationality are all related to alethic and/or epistemic mode or mood; but they aren’t the same as such modes or moods, and also aren’t the same as each other.

Epistemic mood is about how sure the speaker is of what they are saying.

Evidentiality is about how or why they can be that sure; what kind of evidence they have.

Validationality is a kind of “very certain”, especially if it contrasts with how sure the speaker was moments ago, or how sure the addressee or some third person is. It opposes dubitativity, but isn’t precisely its opposite. in my opinion it is quite frequently entangled semantically or pragmatically with the “necessarily” alethic mode or mood.

Mirativity is about how surprising the speaker finds the true thing they just said. If the speaker hasn’t yet wrapped their head around that information, they’ll mark it as mirative. Possibly they’re still hanging on to doubt about their statement, in spite of now having convincing evidence of its truth.

Apparently you already found out about pluractionality!
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

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eldin raigmore wrote: 01 Feb 2019 15:43 Evidentiality and mirativity and validationality are all related to alethic and/or epistemic mode or mood; but they aren’t the same as such modes or moods, and also aren’t the same as each other.

Epistemic mood is about how sure the speaker is of what they are saying.

Evidentiality is about how or why they can be that sure; what kind of evidence they have.

Validationality is a kind of “very certain”, especially if it contrasts with how sure the speaker was moments ago, or how sure the addressee or some third person is. It opposes dubitativity, but isn’t precisely its opposite. in my opinion it is quite frequently entangled semantically or pragmatically with the “necessarily” alethic mode or mood.
Isn't being "very certain" just epistemic modality?
You are not mentioning egophoricity. Or is validationality just another name for it?
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

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Omzinesý wrote: 04 Feb 2019 16:59 Isn't being "very certain" just epistemic modality?
In the same sense that negative polarity is “just” irrealis mood, maybe.
It’s clearly related.
IIUC validationality contains a built-in contrast with either the speaker’s previous degree of certainty, or with some non-first-person’s degree of certainty.
Like retrospective or “perfect” “tenses”; “present perfect” is about an anterior or past or completed event (or whatever), that has present or ongoing relevance. There’s a built-in contrast or comparison.
People whose L1 has no retrospective, tend to use an L2’s retrospective as “recent past”; especially if their L1 has degrees-of-remoteness but the L2 doesn’t.
People whose L1 doesn’t have middle voice tend to have trouble using it correctly in L2 that does have it.
I bet the same is true of validationality.
If you’re having difficulty, it seems that, from what Payne says, you’re in good company.
It appears validationality contrasts with evidentiality moreso than with epistemic mood. Or that it’s confused with evidentiality moreso than with mood. I am not an expert, and my L1 has neither evidentiality nor validationality nor mirativity.
Omzinesý wrote: 04 Feb 2019 16:59 You are not mentioning egophoricity. Or is validationality just another name for it?
I didn’t mention egophoricity because I didn’t think of it; it’s not on the list from Tom E. Payne’s Describing Morphosyntax I was using.
I doubt egophoricity is the same as validationality in every language that has either of them. For some languages maybe they are the same. But perhaps some languages have both.
I think it’s a good think to consider, especially if there’s morphology about it.

————————————————————

Did you get a chance to read any of the docs I indicated to you? In particular, did you read pp 252-253 of Payne’s D.M.?
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Random idea I may use in some lang:

There are't very many onset clusters but t, c, and k can be followed by a lateral that assimilates with the POA of the stop: tl, cʎ, kʟ.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

A random idea for some future lang

Vowels have three suprasegmentals 1) short vowel with a neutral tone 2) long vowel with a rising tone 3) long vowel with a lowering tone.

Written
a
á
à

Cyrillic
а
аь
аъ
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Omzinesý wrote: 02 Aug 2019 12:19 Random idea I may use in some lang:

There are't very many onset clusters but t, c, and k can be followed by a lateral that assimilates with the POA of the stop: tl, cʎ, kʟ.
You could also maybe do /p̼l̼/, corresponding to simple onset /p/.
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Aug 2019 21:26 A random idea for some future lang

Vowels have three suprasegmentals 1) short vowel with a neutral tone 2) long vowel with a rising tone 3) long vowel with a lowering tone.

Written
a
á
à

Cyrillic
а
аь
аъ
The use of the Slavic hard and soft signs for tone is interesting. Would there be a historical origin for that, or would they just be arbitrary tone letters borrowed from Cyrillic?
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Omzinesý »

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 07 Aug 2019 06:35
Omzinesý wrote: 02 Aug 2019 12:19 Random idea I may use in some lang:

There are't very many onset clusters but t, c, and k can be followed by a lateral that assimilates with the POA of the stop: tl, cʎ, kʟ.
You could also maybe do /p̼l̼/, corresponding to simple onset /p/.
I think linguo-labials are a bit too rare.
And the system doesn't have to be that harmonic.

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 07 Aug 2019 06:35
Omzinesý wrote: 06 Aug 2019 21:26 A random idea for some future lang

Vowels have three suprasegmentals 1) short vowel with a neutral tone 2) long vowel with a rising tone 3) long vowel with a lowering tone.

Written
a
á
à

Cyrillic
а
аь
аъ
The use of the Slavic hard and soft signs for tone is interesting. Would there be a historical origin for that, or would they just be arbitrary tone letters borrowed from Cyrillic?
That's just an idea to be used in some language.
The idea behind the orthography is rather to use the soft and hard signs to mark length and because the long vowels happen to have tone the i-sign is used for rising tone and u-sign for lowering tone. /u/ is phonetically low while/i/ is high.

I think some Caucasian languages use <ъ> for the glottal stop so it could be the source of a high/rising tone, but my idea was to use it for the lowering one. So probably that is just an orthographic choice because Cyrillic alphabet doesn't like accents.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread: a triconsonantal idea

Post by Omzinesý »

Phonology

p t k ʔ*
f s x h
m n
l
r**
j w

*/ʔ/ is a real phoneme so that it contrasts with zero also in onsets.
** the real phonetic appearance of /r/ is still unclear.

i u
e o
ä

In ustressed syllables
i => ɪ, u => ʊ (not in absolute word end)
e => ə o => ʊ/u

Stress falls on the ultimate syllable if it has a coda and on the penultimate if the ultimate syllable does not have a coda.

Phonotactics
Consonant clusters of increasing sonority are allowed in onset and the with decreasing sonority in coda.
[stop][fricative][liquid/approximant]V[liquid/approximant][fricative][stop]

Morphology
Noun-class/classifier prefixes (They don't appear in some generic contexts, so they maybe could be classifiers as well.)
The prefix has different "head form" and "genitive form".

Root compounds are possible forming C1C1C1C2C2C2 with vowel patterns appearing between the 6-consonant root, but they cannot be as productive as ad-hoc compounds in North-European languages.

Verbs agree with noun classes of the subject and object.

Information structure has some morphological coding, but I'm not sure what and where.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread: inspired by Swahili & Welsh

Post by Omzinesý »

A new idea

The language will combine Swahili-style noun classes with Welsh initial consonant mutations and auxiliary + action nominal systems.

Consonamt phonemes
pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ <p t c k>
b d ɟ g <b d j g>
m̥ʰ n̥ʰ ɲ̥ʰ ŋ̥ʰ <mh nh njh ngh>
m n ɲ ŋ <m n nj ng>
s ɕ h <s x h>
l j w <l j w>

Mutations:
plain - lenited - nasal

pʰ → h - mʰ
tʰ → s - nʰ
cʰ → ɕ - ɲʰ
kʰ → h - ŋʰ

ptʰ → stʰ - mnʰ
pcʰ → ɕcʰ - mɲʰ
pkʰ → ? - mŋʰ
tpʰ → spʰ - nmʰ
tcʰ → scʰ - nɲʰ
tkʰ → skʰ - nŋʰ
cpʰ → ɕpʰ - ɲmʰ
kpʰ → ?? - ŋmʰ
ptʰ → tʰ - mnʰ
tpʰ → stʰ - nmʰ

b → w - m
d → l - n
ɟ → j - ɲ
g → w - ŋ

bd → sd - mŋ
bɟ → ɕɟ - mɲ
bg → w - mŋ
db → sb - nm
dɟ → sɟ - nɲ
dg → sg - nŋ
ɟb → xb - ɲm
ɟd → xd -ɲn
gb → w - ŋm
gd → sd - ŋn

s
ɕ
l

m
n
ɲ
ŋ
Last edited by Omzinesý on 01 Nov 2019 19:38, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread: inspired by Swahili & Welsh

Post by Omzinesý »

Nouns

10ish noun classes
Two degrees of definiteness
Two numbers

Pattern:
mutation - root - article

The morphological process called mutation expresses genitive or is governed by particles preceding the noun, e.g. plural particle "mo".
The morpheme called article expresses the categories of definiteness (definite/indefinite), noun class, and sometimes number (collective plural/singular).

leb-a 'the woman'
lem-ne 'a woman'

se heb-a 'the women'
se hem-ne 'some women'


bta-ku 'the knife'
bta-sa 'a knife'

se mna-ku 'the knives'
se mna-sa 'some knives'
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Romlang Idea

Post by Omzinesý »

This is an idea of a Romlang. Usually they are very boring so to take those ideas further I should find up much more, but this a notepad.

s => ʃ
k [+front] => s
g [+ front] => ʒ => z
j => ʒ => z

I'm still considering what will happen with /s/ in coda positions. Maybe it is /ʃ/ which sounds very German, or maybe it deletes with compensatory lengthening.

So there is a three-sibilant system [s, z, ʃ] which is written <c/ç, z, s> respectively.
<s> for /ʃ/ gives a Hungarian taste.
Because of assimilation and final devoicing, /s/ and /z/ merge in the coda position, so <ç> does not have to appear there and <z> is always used.

Stress always falls on the first syllable, which can be of Germanic influence. So verbs can lose the theme vowel of the infinitives "cantre" for 'to sing'.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Apparently a particular dialect of Occitan underwent something similar:
In one part (and only one part) of Limousin,[which?] a transphonologization has occurred:
The old phonemes /ts/, /dz/ have now become /s/, /z/, less frequently /θ/, /ð/.
The old phonemes /s/, /z/ have now become /ʃ/, /ʒ/, less frequently /h/, /ɦ/.
I.e. a chain shift of /ts dz/ > /s z/ > /ʃ ʒ/.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - a Romlang idea

Post by Omzinesý »

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 26 Nov 2019 02:26 Apparently a particular dialect of Occitan underwent something similar:
In one part (and only one part) of Limousin,[which?] a transphonologization has occurred:
The old phonemes /ts/, /dz/ have now become /s/, /z/, less frequently /θ/, /ð/.
The old phonemes /s/, /z/ have now become /ʃ/, /ʒ/, less frequently /h/, /ɦ/.
I.e. a chain shift of /ts dz/ > /s z/ > /ʃ ʒ/.
I see, nice!
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - a Romlang idea

Post by Omzinesý »

The lang develops a Slavic-style aspect system that is based on preverbs. The language can thus get rid of the perfects.
I just have to study a bit how Latin preverbs work.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - Romlang idea

Post by Omzinesý »

Some changes from Vulgar-Latin
1. Stress goes to the first syllable
2. reduction of open middle syllables
3. reduction of word-final vowels if the process doesn't create complex syllables

Verbs

facere => façre 'to do'
[fa'sɛrɛ] => ['fasɛrɛ] => ['fasrɛ]

sg1 fac [fak]
sg2 faces ['fasɛʃ]
sg3 faç [fas]
pl1 façmo
pl2 façte
pl3 faç ~ facen

sg1 and sg3 are identical in most verbs.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap thread - A Romlang Idea

Post by Ælfwine »

Omzinesý wrote: 25 Nov 2019 13:45 This is an idea of a Romlang. Usually they are very boring so to take those ideas further I should find up much more, but this a notepad.

s => ʃ
k [+front] => s
g [+ front] => ʒ => z
j => ʒ => z

I'm still considering what will happen with /s/ in coda positions. Maybe it is /ʃ/ which sounds very German, or maybe it deletes with compensatory lengthening.

So there is a three-sibilant system [s, z, ʃ] which is written <c/ç, z, s> respectively.
<s> for /ʃ/ gives a Hungarian taste.
Because of assimilation and final devoicing, /s/ and /z/ merge in the coda position, so <ç> does not have to appear there and <z> is always used.

Stress always falls on the first syllable, which can be of Germanic influence. So verbs can lose the theme vowel of the infinitives "cantre" for 'to sing'.
I might actually steal these sound changes for my romlang, as it would fit the location (western Hungary) if you don't mind of course. I would keep /ʃ/ word finally.

And like Hungarian I'd write these phonemes <sz z s> respectively.
Omzinesý wrote: 30 Nov 2019 08:36 The lang develops a Slavic-style aspect system that is based on preverbs. The language can thus get rid of the perfects.
I just have to study a bit how Latin preverbs work.
God damn it, you are just full of good ideas aren't you?
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