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Re: Silvish

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What’s the Silvish term for someone who’s a thousand years old?
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Re: Silvish

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eldin raigmore wrote: 09 Aug 2020 01:34 What’s the Silvish term for someone who’s a thousand years old?
Milaneû. These words can also be used for non-humans, so you have terms like la reuza milaneuza "the Thousand-Year Rose".
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Re: Silvish - Traditional given names

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An idea for Silvish first names I've been mulling over for the past few days:

Beginning in the Middle Ages, Silvia developed an idiosyncratic system of given names; at its most widespread, it worked as follows: The first son and the first daughter in a family received compound given names based on names of family members and their date of birth. The first element of this given name was drawn from the given name of a same-gender relative, such as a grandparent or a godparent (maternal grandparents were a popular choice). If the relative had a compound name, only the first element was used. The second element was the name of a saint celebrated on the child's birthday. If the saint was of the same gender as the child, the name was directly assigned; if not, a variant of the appropriate gender was used. In areas with a preference for maternal grandparents, each matrilineage came to be characterized by a group of up to four given-name elements that traveled multiple generations. Younger children were given single-element names, chosen by the parents, either from a relative's name or from the calendar of saints.

Some examples of the Silvish compound name include Çharlaûbin (lit. Charles-Albin) and Marisabina (Mary-Sabina). Upon meeting a man named Çharlaûbin, you could know that he was the first son in his family, and that a relative of his—likely his maternal grandfather—was named Çharlou or had a name with that as the first element. You could additionally know that he was born on March 1, the day associated with Saint Albinus of Angers. Similarly, when meeting a woman named Marisabina, you could determine that she was the eldest daughter in her family, and that one of her relatives was named Mari or had a name with that as the first element. Further, the second element would show she was born on August 29, the feast day of Saint Sabina.

Traditional naming was disrupted when revolutionary France annexed Silvia from the late 18th century to the early 19th, and the system entered a long period of decline. The first element of the given name was inherited less often, while sources other than the calendar of saints began to contribute to the name pool. By the end of the world wars, given names were mostly chosen by parents, and any child could receive a compound or single-element name, regardless of birth order. However, there does persist a general tendency to give firstborns compound names, which are selected based on parental taste. Nowadays, the upper classes and the old aristocracy are most likely to use traditional naming. Additionally, some prince-archbishops have adopted compound regnal names reflecting this tradition, but in these cases, they drew the inherited element from the name of a previous archbishop.
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Re: Silvish

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Delightful and authentic!
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 66,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Silvish

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Khemehekis wrote: 10 Oct 2020 03:49 Delightful and authentic!
Thank you!

I'm still trying to figure out the exact implications for the supply of names, particularly the inherited elements. I may have gotten the "four" number wrong, for example. Now that I've thought it over longer, it looks as if only the feminine name elements stay in one matrilineage, whereas the masculine elements kind of hop from one to the next. In that case, I revise the penultimate sentence of the first paragraph like so: "In areas with a preference for maternal grandparents, each matrilineage came to be characterized by an alternating pair of feminine given-name elements that traveled multiple generations; masculine inherited elements tended to circulate among different matrilineages."
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Re: Silvish - Traditional given names

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Dormouse559 wrote: 10 Oct 2020 02:41 An idea for Silvish first names I've been mulling over for the past few days:

Beginning in the Middle Ages, Silvia developed an idiosyncratic system of given names; at its most widespread, it worked as follows: The first son and the first daughter in a family received compound given names based on names of family members and their date of birth. The first element of this given name was drawn from the given name of a same-gender relative, such as a grandparent or a godparent (maternal grandparents were a popular choice). If the relative had a compound name, only the first element was used. The second element was the name of a saint celebrated on the child's birthday. If the saint was of the same gender as the child, the name was directly assigned; if not, a variant of the appropriate gender was used.
Is that usual? Particularly as the second element of the name, wouldn't it keep the same gender, rather than mangle the name of the saint? Speaking from a biased position here, as someone with an uncle whose middle name is 'Mary' and an aunt whose middle name is 'Ignatius'...

I don't know enough about non-English naming traditions to really know - but certainly the most common female saint's name, "Mary", was kept feminine across the Romance area, even when used as the second element of a man's name. Similarly, I know the French still use masculine "Georges" as the second element in women's names. While "Mary" might be important enough to be an exception, there's no particular reason why "George" would be, so I assume that this gender-conflict was much more common in the past, and it's just that certain names have survived longer.
In areas with a preference for maternal grandparents, each matrilineage came to be characterized by a group of up to four given-name elements that traveled multiple generations. Younger children were given single-element names, chosen by the parents, either from a relative's name or from the calendar of saints.
I think it would be unusual to split the naming of firstborn and secondborn in this way, particularly in such an extreme fashion. In particular, remember that the firstborn would generally not survive to adulthood anyway - because most babies wouldn't. All the motivations for naming the firstborn in that way - providing a legacy to the grandparents, recognising a powerful godparent, comemorating a tragic early death, and providing the child with the spiritual protection of their saint's name - would almost equally apply to the secondborn, thirdborn, etc, since there was no way to know which would be the survivor.

In particular, while I can go along with the idea of the firstborn's first name being more rigidly specified by norms - this isn't uncommon - the split between double names and single names seems implausible to me. Both children would have personal names reflecting the choice of the parent, usually honouring a relative... but you'd give one baby a mystically powerful protection spell (the invocation of the saint's name) and then choose not to do the same for your secondborn? Why? Do they not need the protection? And if the first name displays your piety, have you stopped being pious when your second son is born?
Some examples of the Silvish compound name include Çharlaûbin (lit. Charles-Albin) and Marisabina (Mary-Sabina). Upon meeting a man named Çharlaûbin, you could know that he was the first son in his family, and that a relative of his—likely his maternal grandfather—was named Çharlou or had a name with that as the first element. You could additionally know that he was born on March 1, the day associated with Saint Albinus of Angers. Similarly, when meeting a woman named Marisabina, you could determine that she was the eldest daughter in her family, and that one of her relatives was named Mari or had a name with that as the first element. Further, the second element would show she was born on August 29, the feast day of Saint Sabina.
While this obviously makes sense, I'm hesitant about the spelling. This looks as though it creates almost unique names, like 'Marisabina': rare in the culture, and not found across the rest of Europe. This is kind of a problem, because the idea of names as being things you could create - rather than being drawn from a limited, pan-continental stock. In particular, names were not considered personal to the individual, but were simple words in the language, and had to be translated when writing or speaking in a different language. If Charlaubin moved to Italy, how would he introduce himself to people? Not as Charlaubin, since that's not an Italian word!

Unless Silvia is locked in a black hole with no contact with the outside world, I think it would be much more likely for them to believe their names were Charlou-Aubin and Mari-Sabina - even if they pronounced them in a contracted form, phonologically. It would also be possible for certain first names to be written in a contracted form where it differs considerably from the name in isolation - eg Italian "Giovanni" + "Maria" is spelled "Gian Maria". So maybe "Charl Aubin" or "Charl-Aubin"?

This is also evidenced by your inheritance rules. The child doesn't inherit the name of a grandparent, but only the first element. This strongly suggests that they recognise the first element as a name in its own right, rather than just part of the name. Particularly because if the inferior siblings are indeed only permitted half a name, then you'd have the halfnames already floating around as names in their own right
Traditional naming was disrupted when revolutionary France annexed Silvia from the late 18th century to the early 19th, and the system entered a long period of decline. The first element of the given name was inherited less often, while sources other than the calendar of saints began to contribute to the name pool. By the end of the world wars, given names were mostly chosen by parents, and any child could receive a compound or single-element name, regardless of birth order. However, there does persist a general tendency to give firstborns compound names, which are selected based on parental taste. Nowadays, the upper classes and the old aristocracy are most likely to use traditional naming. Additionally, some prince-archbishops have adopted compound regnal names reflecting this tradition, but in these cases, they drew the inherited element from the name of a previous archbishop.
I assume from all this that it's an entirely Catholic country - no Waldensians! But if it's a Catholic country, wouldn't there be lots of middle names too?
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Re: Silvish - Traditional given names

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Dormouse559 wrote: 10 Oct 2020 02:41 An idea for Silvish first names I've been mulling over for the past few days:

Beginning in the Middle Ages, Silvia developed an idiosyncratic system of given names; at its most widespread, it worked as follows: The first son and the first daughter in a family received compound given names based on names of family members and their date of birth. The first element of this given name was drawn from the given name of a same-gender relative, such as a grandparent or a godparent (maternal grandparents were a popular choice). If the relative had a compound name, only the first element was used. The second element was the name of a saint celebrated on the child's birthday. If the saint was of the same gender as the child, the name was directly assigned; if not, a variant of the appropriate gender was used. In areas with a preference for maternal grandparents, each matrilineage came to be characterized by a group of up to four given-name elements that traveled multiple generations. Younger children were given single-element names, chosen by the parents, either from a relative's name or from the calendar of saints.
Interesting idea, but I have a question. How does this work? Are names drawn from the liturgical calendar or from the martyrology? The liturgical calendar has all sorts of days which might not be appropriate names such as (1) feriae, (2) octave days, (3) non-saint feast days (e.g. The Invention of the Holy Cross). On top of that, the liturgical calendar varies between diocese (especially in the Middle Ages) and over time. If the names come from the martyrology, what name are kids given born on Christmas?
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Re: Silvish - Traditional given names

Post by Salmoneus »

spanick wrote: 10 Oct 2020 15:06
Dormouse559 wrote: 10 Oct 2020 02:41 An idea for Silvish first names I've been mulling over for the past few days:

Beginning in the Middle Ages, Silvia developed an idiosyncratic system of given names; at its most widespread, it worked as follows: The first son and the first daughter in a family received compound given names based on names of family members and their date of birth. The first element of this given name was drawn from the given name of a same-gender relative, such as a grandparent or a godparent (maternal grandparents were a popular choice). If the relative had a compound name, only the first element was used. The second element was the name of a saint celebrated on the child's birthday. If the saint was of the same gender as the child, the name was directly assigned; if not, a variant of the appropriate gender was used. In areas with a preference for maternal grandparents, each matrilineage came to be characterized by a group of up to four given-name elements that traveled multiple generations. Younger children were given single-element names, chosen by the parents, either from a relative's name or from the calendar of saints.
Interesting idea, but I have a question. How does this work? Are names drawn from the liturgical calendar or from the martyrology? The liturgical calendar has all sorts of days which might not be appropriate names such as (1) feriae, (2) octave days, (3) non-saint feast days (e.g. The Invention of the Holy Cross). On top of that, the liturgical calendar varies between diocese (especially in the Middle Ages) and over time. If the names come from the martyrology, what name are kids given born on Christmas?
That is a good question!

I would say, the non-saint feast days may not be a problem - they can be used as names just as well as saints' names can. This is most commonly seen with the epithets of Mary - Dolores, Rosario, Pilar - which have become widespread names despite being just, well, nouns. But it's also seen with other feast days too: there's a journalist in the UK (sister of a politician), whose name is Annunziata. Admittedly, a name like "Corpus Christi" or "Holy Name" would seem even odder than 'Annunciation' or 'Resurrection (Anastasia). But that's just a cultural thing, not an absolute. I know someone who was taught at school by, among other, a woman named Sacred Heart... (that's her first name; actually, she may have been Sacred Heart of Jesus, and just went by Sacred Heart colloquially?).

However, the broader point does apply: the calendar only names saints for about half the days.

On the other hand, the Martyrology has two problems. First, while the calendar sometimes names multiple saints, the martyrology can name A LOT of saints for each day. Picking a day at random, if Mary was born on the 1st of October, she could be called:
Mary-Remigius
Mary-Aretas (or any of his 505 companions, though they're not listed individually in the version I'm looking at)
Mary-Priscus
Mary-Crescens
Mary-Evagrius
Mary-Verissimus
Mary-Maxima
Mary-Julia
Mary-Piaton
Mary-Domninus
Mary-Bavo, or
Mary-Severus

...which kind of dilutes the 'not chosen, just picked from the caledar' idea! [meanwhile, picking from the calendar itself, there's nobody (nowadays there's the Little Flower of Jesus, but she wasn't given that day until the 1960s (she died 1897)].

The other problem is that while the liturgical calendar would have been something every parish priest would have, and something every single farmer would know the general outline of, I'm not sure to what extent the martyrology would have been available. I see references to it being recited every day at prime... but I'm not sure who recites it. I know monks do, or did. And of course, all Christians are Biblically required if possible to pray the specified eight prayers each day, including prime... but I can't imagine every farmer had a complete martyrology of saints to call on. Nor was every Christian required to pray the whole of each prayer (this would take about 2 hours a day). But would the parish priest have a martyrology? He'd have a breviary, presumably, but I don't think the breviary contains the martyrology. That being said, it does contain a 'proprium sanctorum', which contains the offices of the saints' days... but I get the impression that this is based on the liturgical calendar, not the martyrology. Perhaps someone more knowledgable than me could opine?


[I would assume that people born on the 25th December would be called the local version of "Noel". Although the martyrology also used to comemorate Anastasia on that day.]

EDIT: yes, the proprium sanctorum in the breviary just gives the days of the liturgical calendar.
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Re: Silvish - Traditional given names

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Salmoneus wrote: 10 Oct 2020 13:36
Dormouse559 wrote: 10 Oct 2020 02:41The second element was the name of a saint celebrated on the child's birthday. If the saint was of the same gender as the child, the name was directly assigned; if not, a variant of the appropriate gender was used.
Is that usual? Particularly as the second element of the name, wouldn't it keep the same gender, rather than mangle the name of the saint? Speaking from a biased position here, as someone with an uncle whose middle name is 'Mary' and an aunt whose middle name is 'Ignatius'...
I couldn't say if this is usual. I've actually had quite a bit of difficulty finding details of how saints' names were used in the past, other than that they were used. In any case, I did say the system was idiosyncratic — airtight logic, that. In my first description, I left out that some names are not altered, Mari being the main one, and Jhozé (Joseph) being another. It could be there are more; I haven't worked that out. I think French and English may not be the best model, though, because of their weak gender derivations. Silvish still has thematic vowels, and it has in fact generalized them to words that don't follow the pattern (e.g. borrowings of Latin masculine first-declension nouns like athleta), so it wouldn't be out of character to also do this with names.

Salmoneus wrote:I think it would be unusual to split the naming of firstborn and secondborn in this way, particularly in such an extreme fashion. In particular, remember that the firstborn would generally not survive to adulthood anyway - because most babies wouldn't. All the motivations for naming the firstborn in that way - providing a legacy to the grandparents, recognising a powerful godparent, comemorating a tragic early death, and providing the child with the spiritual protection of their saint's name - would almost equally apply to the secondborn, thirdborn, etc, since there was no way to know which would be the survivor.
Hmm, point. I'll have to think about that one.

Salmoneus wrote:In particular, while I can go along with the idea of the firstborn's first name being more rigidly specified by norms - this isn't uncommon - the split between double names and single names seems implausible to me. Both children would have personal names reflecting the choice of the parent, usually honouring a relative... but you'd give one baby a mystically powerful protection spell (the invocation of the saint's name) and then choose not to do the same for your secondborn? Why? Do they not need the protection? And if the first name displays your piety, have you stopped being pious when your second son is born?
In practice, most people would be named after a saint one way or another. Either a single-element name is a direct reference to a saint, or it's a direct reference to a relative, who themself is probably named for a saint.

Salmoneus wrote:
Some examples of the Silvish compound name include Çharlaûbin (lit. Charles-Albin) and Marisabina (Mary-Sabina).
While this obviously makes sense, I'm hesitant about the spelling. This looks as though it creates almost unique names, like 'Marisabina': rare in the culture, and not found across the rest of Europe. This is kind of a problem, because the idea of names as being things you could create - rather than being drawn from a limited, pan-continental stock. In particular, names were not considered personal to the individual, but were simple words in the language, and had to be translated when writing or speaking in a different language. If Charlaubin moved to Italy, how would he introduce himself to people? Not as Charlaubin, since that's not an Italian word!

Unless Silvia is locked in a black hole with no contact with the outside world, I think it would be much more likely for them to believe their names were Charlou-Aubin and Mari-Sabina - even if they pronounced them in a contracted form, phonologically. It would also be possible for certain first names to be written in a contracted form where it differs considerably from the name in isolation - eg Italian "Giovanni" + "Maria" is spelled "Gian Maria". So maybe "Charl Aubin" or "Charl-Aubin"?
Hold up there! While my brain has been described as an incomprehensibly dense void, Silvia luckily falls short of that. I've given the modern Silvish spelling, which has its own conventions regarding compounds. Compounds that behave as single phonological units are written without spaces (and hyphens are not used at all in compounds). Compound given names fit the criteria to be single phonological units because the first element is unstressed and elides its final vowels in a predictable fashion. Before the standard orthography was introduced, any number of spellings may have existed. Speakers do recognize the parts of compound names and use that knowledge in naming, but they pronounce compound names as units. And for the purposes of addressing a person, the name is treated as a unit; Çharlaûbin wouldn't answer to just Çharlou or just Aûbin.

Since I didn't mention it previously, I should also note that traditional Silvish naming is a fossilized system of disambiguation. The saint's name was initially added to help tell namesakes apart, and over time it became phonetically and culturally mandatory. So, while compound names are normally treated as indivisible units, they have an occasional bit of separability stemming from that origin.

As for adapting names into other languages: In Italian, Çharlaûbin would introduce himself as Carlo Albino or possibly Carlalbino, rendering the elements according to the target-language conventions. The latter form would be a coinage as far as I can tell, but Carl- has sometimes been used in other Italian names, like Carlalberto and Carlantonio. And just for fun, the spelling of compound names in French is more rigid, so he would doubtless call himself Charles-Aubin in that language; there isn't any liaison in that circumstance, so it actually lines up quite well (French [ʃaʁlobɛ̃] vs. Silvish [hɑʁlɑˈbɛ̃ŋ]).

I'm curious what you mean about "halfnames". A compound name and a single-element name are both a single unit. For example, I know a Mary Jo (that's her full first name, not Mary with middle name Jo), but I don't feel that she somehow has more name than me, even though my name is not a compound.
Salmoneus wrote:I assume from all this that it's an entirely Catholic country - no Waldensians! But if it's a Catholic country, wouldn't there be lots of middle names too?
Very Catholic! The only modern country other than the Vatican with a Church official as sole head of state! There are middle names or, from an emic perspective, extra given names. Unlike the second element of a compound given name, they are fully independent words, and they aren't used on an everyday basis.

spanick wrote: 10 Oct 2020 15:06 Interesting idea, but I have a question. How does this work? Are names drawn from the liturgical calendar or from the martyrology? The liturgical calendar has all sorts of days which might not be appropriate names such as (1) feriae, (2) octave days, (3) non-saint feast days (e.g. The Invention of the Holy Cross). On top of that, the liturgical calendar varies between diocese (especially in the Middle Ages) and over time. If the names come from the martyrology, what name are kids given born on Christmas?
So there's this tradition in some regions, including France, of a calendar of saints, which highlights a few saints for each day of the year based on their feast days. It can be used for naming children or, conversely, for assigning someone's "name day", the feast day of the saint they're named after (obviously most salient if they're named for a saint not celebrated on their birthday). I am still researching this concept, but which saints go on which day varies to some extent, and the listing is not exhaustive, nor is it intended to be. I also don't know what document a calendar of saints would be based on. Early on, however, I assume that the parish priest would have been responsible for determining which saints were connected to a child's birthday. As printing and literacy became more widespread, almanacs would have included the "names of the day", so people could determine these things for themselves.

As Sal said, the word for Christmas is one choice for December 25: Çhelenda. More common choices are Emanyélou (Emmanuel) and Jézou (Jesus).

I haven't drawn up a Silvish calendar of saints, but it would probably have similar priorities to French ones, with variations where preference is given to local favorites. For example, as far as I can tell, my French sources connect May 8 to Desideratus, but Silvia would likely prefer Silvius (see Peter of Tarentaise) for that day, since the latter is the country's patron.

Salmoneus wrote: 10 Oct 2020 20:49...which kind of dilutes the 'not chosen, just picked from the caledar' idea! [meanwhile, picking from the calendar itself, there's nobody (nowadays there's the Little Flower of Jesus, but she wasn't given that day until the 1960s (she died 1897)].
I didn't mean to imply that there was no parental choice at all involved. If more than one saint was celebrated on a given day and included on a calendar of saints, the parents would select one. For those still following the traditional system these days, Teréza (Thérèse) has indeed become the likely choice for October 1. For a male child, I suspect they'd prefer Remi (Remigius).
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