Uniqueness

[HoskhMatriarch]

Is it possible to make a unique naturalistic language? I'm not sure it is. It seems no matter what I do my language is just similar to one thing or another. I trimmed down everything I don't care about out of my language and got the comment that it looks like someone added pharyngeals to Alemannic :/ I've gotten some people here to say they liked the phonology though, so I'm not sure that's neccessarily a bad thing. Also, pretty much every conlang I've seen that's naturalistic has a phonology that's really similar to something else though. I'll just look at a language and I'll think "that looks like XYZ natlang". That's why I'm kind of thinking anything remotely naturalistic has basically already been done and you can't make anything unique.

[Keenir]

Is it possible to make a unique naturalistic language?

dare we ask what sparked this?

becauseits possible - IMHO - to make a naturalistic language that has a flavor all its own. will it be a special snowflake with nothing about it like any natlang or conlang? no - because the human brain is designed to spot similarities deliberate and accidental and nonexistant.

I'm not sure it is. It seems no matter what I do my language is just similar to one thing or another.

humans tend to make things that humans can understand - and from there, the brain finds similarity.

I trimmed down everything I don't care about out of my language and got the comment that it looks like someone added pharyngeals to Alemannic

was it said by someone who knows Alemannic well or in passing?

That's why I'm kind of thinking anything remotely naturalistic has basically already been done and you can't make anything unique.

let me guess - "then why try?" see above for details, but STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP about similarities,

[HoskhMatriarch]

I was in a chatroom and someone looked at my language and said it looked like Alemannic with pharyngeals. I think that person just knows Alemannic in passing. Alemannic was definitely an inspiration for my language, but I wouldn't say it's really that similar. It doesn't really sound like Alemannic or really anything to me, although it's vaguely reminiscient of a lot of things. That person also said the language name sounds like someone vomiting when I commented that I wanted my language to be beautiful, but it doesn't sound like vomiting when I say it, it sounds like waves crashing by picnics on the beach in summer when I say it (but I've probably had enough practice with the sounds and clusters I can say them fairly easily instead of struggling and hacking them up violently. It's like the thing with [laːx] on the thread where we were talking about German sounding harsh to people. I'm fairly certain my language sounding ugly to people is because of what it sounds similar to and the associations they have with those languages. I mean, it really sounds like some mix of German, Arabic, and Swedish for the most part, and German and Arabic have a lot of negative associations).

[Ælfwine]

I feel the same way sometimes, my first questions here were how to make a conlang unique, and I am still unsure on which direction to take sometimes (for example, I debating what route of palatalization to go with, whether I should have an aspiration contrast or not, what my vowel shifts should be, and whether I should use traditional old norse orthography or not, and finally whether the u-umlaut from r and odd retroflex trill are really a good ideas in the first place.) Sometimes it's especially hard with a-posteriori conlangs to pursue uniqueness because it seems that it is much easier to relex a language than it is to speculate how such proto-languages may develop without turning to it's descendants for guidance.

[Ahzoh]

Uniquity is only found in the way you combine features, not in the uniquity of the features themselves.

[Keenir]

Uniquity is only found in the way you combine features, not in the uniquity of the features themselves.

yep!

[cntrational]

Stop worrying about things like this already, please. Of course people are going to describe your conlangs in terms of other languages -- we don't have any other way to describe language aesthetics!

The abstract principles of conlanging and art don't matter. Just make a language! Stick your face in a bucket of ice water if you start worrying!

[HoskhMatriarch]

Stop worrying about things like this already, please. Of course people are going to describe your conlangs in terms of other languages -- we don't have any other way to describe language aesthetics!

The abstract principles of conlanging and art don't matter. Just make a language! Stick your face in a bucket of ice water if you start worrying!

Yeah, but "your language looks like Alemannic with pharyngeals" is a bit more than just describing it in terms of other languages. But OK, I'll go ahead and just make my language, even if people are like "your language is ugly and sounds like vomiting". I don't particularly care how ugly people think my language is. I'm going to go write poems in it and they'll be beautiful. I think my language just triggers too many violent associations since it has sounds found in German and Arabic and most people just have (at least subconscious) violent associations with those and that makes them repulsed to those sounds.

[Thrice Xandvii]

Yeah, but "your language looks like Alemannic with pharyngeals" is a bit more than just describing it in terms of other languages.

wut

Isn't that exactly that?

[Keenir]

Stop worrying about things like this already, please. Of course people are going to describe your conlangs in terms of other languages -- we don't have any other way to describe language aesthetics!

The abstract principles of conlanging and art don't matter. Just make a language! Stick your face in a bucket of ice water if you start worrying!

Yeah, but "your language looks like Alemannic with pharyngeals" is a bit more than just describing it in terms of other languages.

oh? please, decifer the comment for us, then. because it sure looks like describing in terms of other languages.

and please don't drip the ice water on your computer; trust me, that doesn't end well.

But OK, I'll go ahead and just make my language, even if people are like "your language is ugly and sounds like vomiting".

its hard to tell when you're using hyperbole, and when you're quoting people...i'm half tempted to ask for a citation or a link to the comment in question.

I don't particularly care how ugly people think my language is.

GOOD!

I'm going to go write poems in it and they'll be beautiful.

excellent. please, write the poems.

I think my language just triggers too many violent associations since it has sounds found in German and Arabic

to be fair, a lot of the descriptions you yourself give of your conlang, are that "its like German, with..." and such.

violent?...are people telling you "when I read your conlang, I think of Nazis" ?

[HoskhMatriarch]

Well, many people have negative subconscious associations with certain sounds found in certain languages even if they're not consciously thinking of Nazis or anything like that. People think German sounds harsh because they have violent associations with it, and the same with Arabic, and even Russian. Russian has really no "harsh" sounds and in fact has a lot of light, bright palatalized sounds as well as a just very sing-songy prosody, and somehow people think it sounds super harsh and intimidating, and I've even read someone who says they think Russian is spoken in Hell. That person thought French would be spoken in Heaven. French sounds different from all the other "beautiful" languages the same way Russian sounds different from all the other "harsh" languages (and each of these languages sounds quite different from each other), people just like it because they have positive associations with with French. And if you made a conlang that sounded even vaguely like Russian, or even vaguely like French, the associations would carry over. People are just culturally conditioned to think certain things of certain elements in languages. And the fact that I've made a language whose phonology has all these different elements that are reminiscient of these other languages is just going to trigger the same associations, although I have different associations with the elements I'm using than the average person.

[Salmoneus]

Someone should probably point out that 'language' isn't the same as 'phonology'. Phonology is indeed the least interesting and most repetitive part of language. As there are only so many sounds, everything is similar to other things.

[Lao Kou]

People are just culturally conditioned to think certain things of certain elements in languages. And the fact that I've made a language whose phonology has all these different elements that are reminiscient of these other languages is just going to trigger the same associations, although I have different associations with the elements I'm using than the average person.

How edifying it must be to have different associations from the unwashed, culturally conditioned masses.

[Keenir]

People think German sounds harsh because they have violent associations with it, and the same with Arabic, and even Russian.

"they"??

Russian has really no "harsh" sounds and in fact has a lot of light, bright palatalized sounds as well as a just very sing-songy prosody, and somehow people think it sounds super harsh and intimidating, and I've even read someone who says they think Russian is spoken in Hell.

well, Russian was the international language of diplomacy for centuries, if I recall.

And the fact that I've made a language whose phonology has all these different elements that are reminiscient of these other languages is just going to trigger the same associations,

if you're aware of that, then you have two options:
* avoid those elements in phonology.
* avoid those elements (stop asking those people)

[clawgrip]

Another "I can't do something because people said something" thread. Then everyone says "yes you can" and so you say "okay I guess I will do it then."

Then this will be followed by a new thread that says "I can't do something because people said something." and people will say "yes you can" and you will say "okay I guess I will do it then" repeat ad nauseam.

Why not update your Choskch thread with some concrete grammatical examples?

Am I being overly harsh?

[Thrice Xandvii]

Am I being overly harsh?

Only if this weren't Thread #74 in this vein.

[DesEsseintes]

snip snip

Am I being overly harsh?

No, you're being quite patient and lenient, as far as I'm concerned.

I daresay that at this stage, it might be beneficial to all not to heed these threads any more.

Am I being overly harsh?

[clawgrip]

I think there is actually a very simple underlying paradox that never gets resolved, and so no progress is ever made.

These two issues keep coming up:
Any feature reminiscent of a Germanic language is unacceptable because it is too derivative/not unique.
Any feature not reminiscent of a Germanic language is unacceptable because it is too unrealistic/has too many syllables/isn't Germanic enough

[jute]

Uniquity is only found in the way you combine features, not in the uniquity of the features themselves.

So I can always expect another language to have all the features that I use?

I think there is actually a very simple underlying paradox that never gets resolved, and so no progress is ever made.

These two issues keep coming up:
Any feature reminiscent of a Germanic language is unacceptable because it is too derivative/not unique.
Any feature not reminiscent of a Germanic language is unacceptable because it is too unrealistic/has too many syllables/isn't Germanic enough

Clearly it's about finding a balance :P Maybe Gothic-inspired things could be a solution?

(Seriously though, I largely agree with that analysis)

[cromulant]

It is entirely possible to make a unique conlang; in fact, I am not sure it's possible to make a non-unique one. I daresay what exists of your language so far is already unique.

What is not possible is creating a conlang that won't remind anyone of anything.

You also misunderstand uniqueness. Take people. All people are unique, therefore no one is unique. People are endlessly different, yet people remind us of other people all the time. No one is 'more unique than everyone else,' which I get the feeling is the kind of uniqueness you're going for.

Fiction is another good analog. The stories have all been told already. There's only 20 or so basic plots. Yet the variety is endless. Still, it's not possible to write a story that's a fundamental discontinuity from all that came before. A story with no tropes. Can't be done.

So it is with languages as well.