Exactly, 100% agreed! It's been really helpful in opening my faceholes to different possibilities when dealing with protolanguages, I have a few I've been revamping nearly every week because of different angles with reconstructing protoforms. I've actually found a new way to tackle changes in one protolang because of debuccalization and rhinoglottophilia being new-to-me concepts.One thing I do like about these games, though, is that it shows off, at least on a simplified scale, how you can get different reconstructions based on the same data using different ideas about how the languages are related and how they split.
Quick Diachronics Challenge
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Regardless, good call, Ashtâr![q] was the only thing I got right, apparently... That [æe] diphthong reminded me of vowel colouring in Arabic, and I knew that [q] became debuccalized very easily.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I am obviously up for another round.
It's interesting to be on the other side and see people coming up with all those exotic branching possibilities and curious sound changes that actually make a certain sense. Like the division based on whether they kept or not the medial nasal or the nasal harmony idea.
It's interesting to be on the other side and see people coming up with all those exotic branching possibilities and curious sound changes that actually make a certain sense. Like the division based on whether they kept or not the medial nasal or the nasal harmony idea.
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I know! It's art mimicking life in that real-world languages display patterns and quirks that are mostly superficial, and the human flaw of finding validation in patterns makes it all the more nonplussed when proven wrong or misguided.loglorn wrote:I am obviously up for another round.
It's interesting to be on the other side and see people coming up with all those exotic branching possibilities and curious sound changes that actually make a certain sense. Like the division based on whether they kept or not the medial nasal or the nasal harmony idea.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Because no one else wants to, I will.
I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am
1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false
Good Luck.
I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am
1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false
Good Luck.
"You can rant all you want about how amazing the video game industry would be if only you controlled it, but all you're accomplishing is confirming my image of you as a total crank." - Micamo 2011
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Your hints are evil. And also:Harkani wrote:Because no one else wants to, I will.
I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am
1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false
Good Luck.
sangi39 wrote:Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Blame me. I told him to make a challenge for the *other* thread (since he won the reconstruction there), but I think I pointed to this one.loglorn wrote:Your hints are evil. And also:Harkani wrote:Because no one else wants to, I will.
I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am
1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false
Good Luck.
sangi39 wrote:Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow
Edit: I pointed to the right thread. Still my fault, because I didn't realize we were using this thread for that stuff, and I thought the two threads were working in parallel, so I fit afraid that thread had died. Moral: Read the discussion.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
If Harkani's challenge hasn't been taken up in the other thread, or if Adarain wants to take over, I'm fine with that. I know I said I'd try to come up with something today, but my depression and anxiety are really, really getting to me right now.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
No objections here, I'm certainly gonna want to provide a challenge like this in the future but I'm not there yet. Go ahead.sangi39 wrote: Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow, if anyone's up for a new challenge?
Edit: Oh someone's already done so anyway, didn't see the new page :P
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
- Creyeditor
- MVP
- Posts: 5091
- Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I don't know if we are allowed to answer this, but my guess is:
Spoiler:
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 2 3 4 4
Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Also my fault, my objective was to have both threads working at the same time, too.qwed117 wrote:Blame me. I told him to make a challenge for the *other* thread (since he won the reconstruction there), but I think I pointed to this one.sangi39 wrote:Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrowEdit: I pointed to the right thread. Still my fault, because I didn't realize we were using this thread for that stuff, and I thought the two threads were working in parallel, so I fit afraid that thread had died. Moral: Read the discussion.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
- Inkcube-Revolver
- cuneiform
- Posts: 126
- Joined: 05 Nov 2015 23:20
- Location: Miami, FL
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Also @Harkani, that's a perdy map you got right der'.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I suspect *kʷe˥.'keʔʷ
I suspect there might be something in between e (of the first syllable) and the following k, but I'm not completely sure. The final glottals is a guess to explain forms like k:ew, k'eu and hio˥˩ in one phoneme, but it fails to adequately explain forms like pejei, which I'm putting as caused by stress.
I suspect there might be something in between e (of the first syllable) and the following k, but I'm not completely sure. The final glottals is a guess to explain forms like k:ew, k'eu and hio˥˩ in one phoneme, but it fails to adequately explain forms like pejei, which I'm putting as caused by stress.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
It could be creaky voice on the first syllable. IIRC, this can lead to low tone and/or glottalisation of the syllable if it isn't just dropped.qwed117 wrote:I suspect *kʷe˥.'keʔʷ
I suspect there might be something in between e (of the first syllable) and the following k, but I'm not completely sure. The final glottals is a guess to explain forms like k:ew, k'eu and hio˥˩ in one phoneme, but it fails to adequately explain forms like pejei, which I'm putting as caused by stress.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm going to posit something like gʰøʔ˥ with the optional suffix ge˩, but there are a few forms that I'm struggling to account for. /gʰ/ is how I'm accounting for various reflexes of the first syllables' onsets, from fricatives to voiced and unvoiced stops to semivowels.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Two last hints.
I derived these words from the proto-language. Use them to find the word in question.
k͡piː˥˩zə˩
k͡pʲeː˩zʲə˩
hjeu˧˩
çew˥˩
ʔʲø̰
c͡çœ̰
You guys are also fairly close, but for the wrong reasons. I'm impressed at your efforts. I'll give the answer sometimetomorrowthis week/month.
I derived these words from the proto-language. Use them to find the word in question.
k͡piː˥˩zə˩
k͡pʲeː˩zʲə˩
hjeu˧˩
çew˥˩
ʔʲø̰
c͡çœ̰
You guys are also fairly close, but for the wrong reasons. I'm impressed at your efforts. I'll give the answer sometime
Last edited by Harkani on 21 Feb 2017 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
"You can rant all you want about how amazing the video game industry would be if only you controlled it, but all you're accomplishing is confirming my image of you as a total crank." - Micamo 2011
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Please let us guess for a while first :/Harkani wrote:I'll give the answer sometime tomorrow.
I'm currently at a tentative *kʷʃø̰(gVj) but I'm still working on actually reconstructing stuff, so don't comment on that pls (even if it happens to be perfect). Certainly gonna need some more hours to get some good things.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
- Man in Space
- roman
- Posts: 1304
- Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
- Location: Ohio
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
My guess:
Spoiler:
Twin Aster megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I think I've realized my mistake. Assuming that Taraiph was in fair spirits, and joking with his hints was a mistake. The word is indeed bisyllabic, the words are all related and there was an optional suffix. There was no voicing modality other than voiced-voiceless.
So all consonants are voiceless, and vowels voiced.
This means that ke.ɨ̹ʔ is the base root in all languages. It explains forms like, pejei etc. (assuming syllabification of pe.je.i). The prefixing and postfixing of kʷɨ/kʷʲe is responsible for the other forms. While my model can successfully account for the diachronic development of the individual specie, it cannot account for phonetic developments on the same scale. (The actual order of sound changes has not been evaluated for parsimony and relation)
ke.ɨ̹ʔ>ke.ɨ̹>xe.o>he.o>hio (hi.o) (alternatively kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲe.e.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲeː.ɨ̹ʔ>keːo>xeːo>heːo>hio)
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲe.geʔ>gʷʲe.eʔ>gʷʲeʔ>gʷʲe˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷege.ɨ>wege.ɨ>wegei
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲekiʔ>kʲe.iʔ>ʃɨ.iʔ>ʃʌ˥.i˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷexe.ɨ̹ʔ>peɣeɨ̹ʔ>pejei
ke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨ̹ʔ>cʉʔ
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨ̹ke.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨxe.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨ˥xe.ɨ̹ʔ˩>tɕə˥.xe.ɨ̹h˩>tɕə˥.xih˩>tɕə˥ih˩>tɕəih˥˩
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨtɕe.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨtɕeʔ>tɕə˥.tɕe˩>tɕəʔ˥.tɕe˩>ɕəʔ˥.ɕe˩
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨxe.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨː.e.ɨ̹˩>ɟʷɨː˩>ɟʷəː˩>ɟʷa˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟœke.ɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœɣe.ɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœ.jɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœ˥.jɨ̹˩>ʃjœ˥.jə˩>ʃjœ˥.ja˩>ʃjœ˥.ja˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷeke.ɨ̹ʔ>pøke.ɨ̹ʔ>pøikei>pøiʔei
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>pʷʲe˥ke.ɨ̹˩>pkʷʲe˥.ɨ̹˩>pʃwe.ɨ̹˥˩>pʃwɛ˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ʍʲexe.ɨʔ>ʍixe.ɨʔ>ʍiɨʔ>ʍɨʔ>ʍɨ˩>ʍə˩>ʍɚ˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷʲegjeʔ>kʷʲe˥gje˩>kʷʲe˥gje˥˩>>gje˥˩
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>keːʔkʷɨ>xeːʔgʷɨ>xeːʔgʷə>xeːʔ.ga
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>k’e.e
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>k’eu
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>xe.uʔgʷɨ>xyʔgʷə>xy.ga
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>kːew
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷʲe>xə˩wʲe˥>wʲe˥>wei˥
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷʲe>xə˩ʍʲe˥>ʍʲe˥>çjɛ˥
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>keu
So all consonants are voiceless, and vowels voiced.
This means that ke.ɨ̹ʔ is the base root in all languages. It explains forms like, pejei etc. (assuming syllabification of pe.je.i). The prefixing and postfixing of kʷɨ/kʷʲe is responsible for the other forms. While my model can successfully account for the diachronic development of the individual specie, it cannot account for phonetic developments on the same scale. (The actual order of sound changes has not been evaluated for parsimony and relation)
ke.ɨ̹ʔ>ke.ɨ̹>xe.o>he.o>hio (hi.o) (alternatively kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲe.e.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲeː.ɨ̹ʔ>keːo>xeːo>heːo>hio)
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲe.geʔ>gʷʲe.eʔ>gʷʲeʔ>gʷʲe˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷege.ɨ>wege.ɨ>wegei
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲekiʔ>kʲe.iʔ>ʃɨ.iʔ>ʃʌ˥.i˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷexe.ɨ̹ʔ>peɣeɨ̹ʔ>pejei
ke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨ̹ʔ>cʉʔ
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨ̹ke.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨxe.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨ˥xe.ɨ̹ʔ˩>tɕə˥.xe.ɨ̹h˩>tɕə˥.xih˩>tɕə˥ih˩>tɕəih˥˩
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨtɕe.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨtɕeʔ>tɕə˥.tɕe˩>tɕəʔ˥.tɕe˩>ɕəʔ˥.ɕe˩
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨxe.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨː.e.ɨ̹˩>ɟʷɨː˩>ɟʷəː˩>ɟʷa˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟœke.ɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœɣe.ɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœ.jɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœ˥.jɨ̹˩>ʃjœ˥.jə˩>ʃjœ˥.ja˩>ʃjœ˥.ja˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷeke.ɨ̹ʔ>pøke.ɨ̹ʔ>pøikei>pøiʔei
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>pʷʲe˥ke.ɨ̹˩>pkʷʲe˥.ɨ̹˩>pʃwe.ɨ̹˥˩>pʃwɛ˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ʍʲexe.ɨʔ>ʍixe.ɨʔ>ʍiɨʔ>ʍɨʔ>ʍɨ˩>ʍə˩>ʍɚ˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷʲegjeʔ>kʷʲe˥gje˩>kʷʲe˥gje˥˩>>gje˥˩
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>keːʔkʷɨ>xeːʔgʷɨ>xeːʔgʷə>xeːʔ.ga
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>k’e.e
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>k’eu
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>xe.uʔgʷɨ>xyʔgʷə>xy.ga
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>kːew
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷʲe>xə˩wʲe˥>wʲe˥>wei˥
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷʲe>xə˩ʍʲe˥>ʍʲe˥>çjɛ˥
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>keu
Spoiler: