Quick Diachronics Challenge

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shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 In response to Shimobaatar's most recent post:

[…]

Shimobaatar correctly guessed words 2, 3, and 4. If anybody thinks they can get all four, then good luck. In a week or so, if nobody has guessed all four words correctly, I'll declare Shimobaatar the winner and reveal the true proto-forms and sound changes.
So, just for fun, I decided to give it another go based on the feedback I got here. I'm not sure whether or not to post it, though, since the final round is so close to being over, and since sangi39, jimydog000, ɶʙ ɞʛ, and/or anyone else may still want to submit their own guesses. Should I just go ahead and post it now, wait a day or two, or wait until the answers have been revealed?
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I'm, annoyingly, not able to throw myself at a final attempt (forgot it was my turn for home-working shifts, lol), so I don't think I'll be able to get another guess in this week. I know I'm not the closest, but I'm happy to settle with what I have [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
ɶʙ ɞʛ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

You can post it now, unless someone else objects.
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

sangi39 wrote: 28 Sep 2020 20:11 I'm, annoyingly, not able to throw myself at a final attempt (forgot it was my turn for home-working shifts, lol), so I don't think I'll be able to get another guess in this week.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Good luck with your work!

I've put my revised guesses for the 4 proto-forms under the first spoiler, while my complete thoughts, so to speak, are under the second spoiler below. 
Spoiler:
[ˈᴺɢet.t͡sɪ] - [pɔˈtɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈqah.han̥] (Proto-World)

Spoiler:
A) [ˈga.ʃə] - [pəˈθɑn] - [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] - [ka.ˈxə̃]
B) [ˈɣaː.tʃ] - [pəˈtən] - [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] - [kaː.ˈxə̃]

[ˈgaː.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtɐn] - [ŋaːˈmoː.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job!
Thank you!

C) [ˈɟe.tʃe] - [ˈtæn] - [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] - [kəː.ˈɣã]
D) [ˈgje.tʃe] - [ˈtʰen] - [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] - [kaː.ˈʔã]

[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈɸtæn] - [ŋjeˈmwo.ɬæ] - [kaə̯ˈxã] (Proto-C/D)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 2: The initial consonant is still off
Word 3: Missing a segment
I'm not terribly confident about my solutions here, but oh well!
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 4: The long vowel is still off, I'm just gonna give it to you: [aə̯]. It was likely too difficult for anyone to reconstruct
Oh, interesting! But yeah, based on the information available, that would have been difficult to guess.
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28
shimobaatar wrote: 10 Sep 2020 00:34 I'm pretty stumped on Word 3, but based on some of the word's cognates and some of my higher-level reconstructions, I might try [m] for now.
So the [m] caused the nasalization in C and D, but that [w] didn't come out of nowhere.
I was assuming [m] had lenited to [w]. Hmm…

[ˈgaː.t͡ʃə] - [pəˈtɐn] - [ŋaːˈmoː.ɬə] - [kaːˈxə̃] (Proto-A/B)
[ˈgje.t͡ʃe] - [ˈɸtæn] - [ŋjeˈmwo.ɬæ] - [kaə̯ˈxã] (Proto-C/D)

[ˈgeː.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptɐn] - [ŋeːˈmoː.ɬɛ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 1: I need to be more clear with my comments, the final vowel was correct before [e], it was the geminates I was referring to.
[…]
Word 3: Missing two segments, when the geminates were lost, they left something behind
Oh, no worries! I think I understand now. 

E) [ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] - [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] - [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] - [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
F) [ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] - [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] - [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] - [kax.ˈxãː]

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈpɾ̥ɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʃ.ʃi] - [kaxˈxaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 2: The [ɾ] is partially correct, it has an extra feature that contributed to its change to aspiration in E (this feature is not aspiration).
Perhaps [ɾ̥], then?

G) [ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕʼ] - [ˈtʼɐnd] - [ˈmʉʎ] - [ˈqχɑn]
H) [əŋ.ˈgətɕi] - [ˈpθən.də] - [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]

[əŋˈgɨt.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job!
Thank you!

[əw̃ˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈpɾ̥ɐj̃.dɨ] - [ʔew̃ˈmoʃ.ʃi] - [kaxˈxaj̃] (Proto-E/F)
[əŋˈgɨt.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmʉʎ.ʎi] - [kɑχˈχɑn] (Proto-G/H)

[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 3: Closest guess on the geminate fricatives yet. I'll give it away, it was [ɬʲ]. I think the palatalization may have been too difficult to reconstruct.
Ah, I see! I suppose I thought that, with the following [i] there, it was unnecessary to reconstruct [ɬʲ] as opposed to just [ɬ].

[ˈgeː.t͡ʃe] - [ˈptɐn] - [ŋeːˈmoː.ɬɛ] - [kaːˈxã] (Proto-A/B/C/D)
[əŋˈget.t͡ɕi] - [ˈptɐn.dɨ] - [ʔemˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi] - [kaxˈxan] (Proto-E/F/G/H)

[ˈᵑget.t͡se] - [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 1: The geminate is still incorrect, it's a retention from Proto-World, and the palatalization happened independently in both ABCD and EFGH.
Hmm… perhaps [t͡s]?


I) [ˈʀedz] - [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] - [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] - [ˈaː]
J) [ˈʕets] - [u.ˈdɑɹ] - [y.ˈmoj] - [ˈah]

[ˈʀet͡s] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job!
Thank you!

K) [ˈʝe.ɟʝi] - [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] - [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] - [ˈha.ɦa]
L) [ˈʁe.ze] - [po.ˈrɑɹ] - [ʔe.ˈmo.je] - [ˈʔaː]

[ˈʁe.d͡zi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job!
Thank you!

[ˈʀet͡s] - [ɔˈdɑɹ] - [øˈmol] - [ˈah] (Proto-I/J)
[ˈʁe.d͡zi] - [puˈɾɑɹ] - [ʔiˈmo.li] - [ˈʔa.ɦa] (Proto-K/L)

[ˈʁe.t͡sɪ] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 1: The final syllable is still incorrect. For help with the vowel, I'd think of Latin to Romance when looking at its reflexes.
Oh, hmm… 

M) [ˈqa.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] - [ˈaː.ha]
N) [ˈʔas.sə] - [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] - [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈŋaːː.ha]

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job again!
Thanks again!

O) [ˈχaː.ze] - [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] - [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈhaː.ɦah]
P) [ˈqχaː.sə] - [pfə.ˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔhəm.ˈmɑː.lə] - [ˈʔhaː.həː]

[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job again!
Thanks again!

[ˈqas.sə] - [ɸøˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔə̃ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] - [ˈʔaː.ha] (Proto-M/N)
[ˈqʰaː.se] - [pʰɑˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔʰamˈmɑː.ɮa] - [ˈʔʰaː.hah] (Proto-O/P)

[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Great job!
Thank you!

[ˈʁe.t͡sɪ] - [pɔˈdɑ.ɹə] - [ʔeˈmo.lɛ] - [ˈʔa.ha] (Proto-I/J/K/L)
[ˈqas.se] - [pɒˈdɑ.ʐə] - [ʔamˈmɒɮ.ɮa] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-M/N/O/P)

[ˈʁet.t͡sɪ] - [pɔˈdɐ.ɹə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-Eastern)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 1: The geminate is still incorrect and the final vowel is, the correct values are identical in Proto-World, Proto-Eastern, and IJKL (excluding the gemination in the latter).
Good to know. 
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 2: You're basically right, the last consonant should be alveolar (the Mandarin example I know has a few realizations).
Ah, thanks for the clarification!


[ˈᵑget.t͡se] - [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] - [kaxˈxan̥] (Proto-Western)
[ˈʁet.t͡sɪ] - [pɔˈdɐ.ɹə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈʔah.hah] (Proto-Eastern)

[ˈᴺɢet.t͡sɪ] - [pɔˈtɐ.ⁿdə] - [ʔemˈmol.lɛ] - [ˈqah.han̥] (Proto-World)
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Word 1: The geminate and the final consonant are still incorrect
I'm assuming this was meant to say "final vowel".
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 The reflexes [ə] and Ø are merely a result of the lack of stress on the vowel. Focus more on the other two reflexes (again, consider Latin).
Ah, that makes sense! I hope I've "considered Latin" correctly.
Ratsawn wrote: 27 Sep 2020 21:28 Overall, amazing work! You got three of the four words!
Thank you very much! This has been a lot of fun, and all of your feedback has been greatly appreciated.  [:D] 
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

Congratulations to Shimobaatar! You have correctly guessed all four words, and (and at this I am especially surprised) EVERY SINGLE ONE of the intermediary forms. Great work, this was so fun for me and I hope it was fun for y'all. I can't wait to participate in the next challenge, Shimobaatar.
The words were:
1: [ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ] 2: [pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə] 3: [ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ] 4: [ˈqah.han̥]

Forms and sound changes belowː
Spoiler:
The proto-lang had six vowels, which were tense [a e i o u ə] in closed syllables and lax [ɐ ɛ ɪ ɔ ʊ ə] in open syllables. Nasals and approximates devoiced in word final position. That's all the phonology I officially worked out.

Proto-Westː
[ˈᵑget.tse] [ˈptɐ.ⁿdə] [ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬɛ] [kax.ˈxan̥]
1: Fixed stress on penultimate shifts to ultimate if closed (ˈqah.han̥ → qah.ˈhan̥)
2: [+uvular} → [+velar} (ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ → ˈᵑget.tsɪ, qah.ˈhan̥ → kah.ˈhan̥)
3: ɪ ʊ → e o (ˈᵑget.tsɪ → ˈᵑget.tse)
4: V → Ø / In open, unstressed syllables ! _# (pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə → ˈptɐ.ⁿdə)
5: hh ll → xx ɬɬ (kah.ˈhan̥ → kax.ˈxan̥, ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ → ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬɛ)

Proto-ABCD
[ˈgeː.tʃe] [ˈptɐn] [ŋeː.ˈmoː.ɬɛ] [kaː.ˈxã]
1: [+stop}[+prenasalized] → [+stop}[-prenasalised] / #_ (ˈᵑget.tse → ˈget.tse)
2: [+stop][+prenasalised] → [+nasal] (ˈptɐ.ⁿdə → ˈptɐ.nə)
3: ts → tʃ / _{i e} (ˈget.tse → ˈget.tʃe)
4: Vn̥ → Ṽ (kax.ˈxan̥ → kax.ˈxã)
5: ʔ → ŋ / #_ (ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬɛ → ŋem.ˈmoɬ.ɬɛ)
6: VC[+geminate] → V[+long]C[-geminate] (ˈget.tʃe → ˈgeː.tʃe, ŋem.ˈmoɬ.ɬɛ → ŋeː.ˈmoː.ɬɛ, kax.ˈxã → kaː.ˈxã)
7: ə → Ø / _# (ˈptɐ.nə → ˈptɐn)

Proto-AB
[ˈgaː.tʃə] [pəˈtɐn] [ŋaː.ˈmoː.ɬə] [kaː.ˈxə̃]
1: ɛ ɔ → e o (ŋeː.ˈmoː.ɬɛ → ŋeː.ˈmoː.ɬe)
2: eː → aː (ˈgeː.tʃe → ˈgaː.tʃe, ŋeː.ˈmoː.ɬe → ŋaː.ˈmoː.ɬe)
3: Ø → ə / C[+stop]_C[+stop] (ˈptɐn → pəˈtɐn)
4: V → ə / _# (ˈgaː.tʃe → ˈgaː.tʃə, ŋaː.ˈmoː.ɬe → ŋaː.ˈmoː.ɬə, kaː.ˈxã → kaː.ˈxə̃)

A
[ˈga.ʃə] [pəˈθɑn] [ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə] [ka.ˈxə̃]
[+stop] → [+fricative] / V_V (ˈgaː.tʃə → ˈgaː.ʃə, pəˈtɐn → pəˈθɐn)
ɐ → ɑ (pəˈθɐn → pəˈθɑn)
V[+long] → V[-long] (ˈgaː.ʃə → ˈga.ʃə, ŋaː.ˈmoː.ɬə → ŋa.ˈmo.ɬə, kaː.ˈxə̃ → ka.ˈxə̃)

B
[ˈɣaː.tʃ] [pəˈtən] [ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ] [kaː.ˈxə̃]
ə → Ø / _# ! ə̃ (ˈgaː.tʃə → ˈgaː.tʃ, ŋaː.ˈmoː.ɬə → ŋaː.ˈmoːɬ)
ɐ → ə (pəˈtɐn → pəˈtən)
[+stop][+voice] → [+fricative][+voice] / #_ (ˈgaː.tʃ → ˈɣaː.tʃ)

Proto-CD
[ˈgje.tʃe] [ˈɸtæn] [ŋje.ˈmwo.ɬæ] [kaə̯.ˈxã]
eː oː aː → je wo aə̯ (ˈgeː.tʃe → ˈgje.tʃe, ŋeː.ˈmoː.ɬɛ → ŋje.ˈmwo.ɬɛ, kaː.ˈxã → kaə̯.ˈxã)
ɛ ɐ → æ (ˈptɐn → ˈptæn, ŋje.ˈmwo.ɬɛ → ŋje.ˈmwo.ɬæ)
[+stop] → [+fricative] / _[+stop] (ˈptæn → ˈɸtæn)

C
[ˈɟe.tʃe] [ˈtæn] [ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ] [kəː.ˈɣã]
gj ŋj → ɟ ɲ (ˈgje.tʃe → ˈɟe.tʃe, ŋje.ˈmwo.ɬæ → ɲe.ˈmwo.ɬæ)
Vm → Ṽ / _{C, #} (ɲe.ˈmwo.ɬæ → ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɬæ)
aə̯ → əː (kaə̯.ˈxã → kəː.ˈxã)
[+fricative][-voice] → [+fricative][+voice] / V_V (ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɬæ → ɲẽ.ˈwo.ɮæ)
ɸ → Ø (ˈɸtæn → ˈtæn)

D
[ˈgje.tʃe] [ˈtʰen] [je.ˈw̃o.ɬa] [kaː.ˈʔã]
x → h → Ø (kaə̯.ˈxã → kaə̯.ˈã)
mw → w̃ (ŋje.ˈmwo.ɬæ → ŋje.ˈw̃o.ɬæ)
ɸ → h (ˈɸtæn → ˈhtæn)
hC[+stop][-aspirated] → C[+stop][+aspirated] (ˈhtæn → ˈtʰæn)
ŋj → j (ŋje.ˈw̃o.ɬæ → je.ˈw̃o.ɬæ)
æ → e / _N (ˈtʰæn → ˈtʰen)
æ → a (je.ˈw̃o.ɬæ → je.ˈw̃o.ɬa)
ae̯ → aː (kaə̯.ˈã → kaː.ˈã)
Ø → ʔ / V_V (kaː.ˈã → kaː.ˈʔã)

Proto-EFGH
[əŋ.ˈget.tɕi] [ˈptɐn.dɨ] [ʔem.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi] [kax.ˈxan]
ts ɬ → tɕ ɬʲ / _{ɛ, e, i} (ˈᵑget.tse → ˈᵑget.tɕe, ʔem.ˈmoɬ.ɬɛ → ʔem.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲɛ)
n̥ → n (kax.ˈxan̥ → kax.ˈxan)
C[+prenasalized} → NC (ˈᵑget.tɕe → ŋ.ˈget.tɕe, ˈptɐ.ⁿdə → ˈptɐn.də)
Ø → ə / #_NC (ŋ.ˈget.tɕe → əŋ.ˈget.tɕe)
e ɛ ə → i i ɨ (əŋ.ˈget.tɕe → əŋ.ˈget.tɕi, ˈptɐn.də → ˈptɐn.dɨ, ʔem.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲɛ → ʔem.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi)

Proto-EF
[əw̃.ˈget.tɕi] [ˈpɾ̥ɐj̃.dɨ] [ʔew̃.ˈmoʃ.ʃi] [kax.ˈxaj̃]
t → ɾ̥ / {C_, _C} (ˈptɐn.dɨ → ˈpɾ̥ɐn.dɨ)
[+nasal] → [+glide][+nasalized] / _{C, #} (əŋ.ˈget.tɕi → əw̃.ˈget.tɕi, ˈpɾ̥ɐn.dɨ → ˈpɾ̥ɐj̃.dɨ, ʔem.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi → ʔew̃.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi, kax.ˈxan → kax.ˈxaj̃)
ɬʲ → ʃ (ʔew̃.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi → ʔew̃.ˈmoʃ.ʃi)

E
[ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi] [ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ] [ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi] [kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃]
[+geminate][-voice] → [+geminate][+voice] (əw̃.ˈget.tɕi → əw̃.ˈged.dʑi, ʔew̃.ˈmoʃ.ʃi → ʔew̃.ˈmoʒ.ʒi, kax.ˈxaj̃ → kaɣ.ˈɣaj̃)
ɾ̥ → h → ʰ (ˈpɾ̥ɐj̃.dɨ → ˈpʰɐj̃.dɨ)
V → Ṽ / _C[+glide][+nasalized] (əw̃.ˈged.dʑi → ə̃w̃.ˈged.dʑi, ˈpʰɐj̃.dɨ → ˈpʰɐ̃j̃.dɨ, ʔew̃.ˈmoʒ.ʒi → ʔẽw̃.ˈmoʒ.ʒi, kaɣ.ˈɣaj̃ → kaɣ.ˈɣãj̃)
V[+mid][+oral] → V[+high][+oral] / _C{C, #} (ə̃w̃.ˈged.dʑi → ə̃w̃.ˈgid.dʑi, ʔẽw̃.ˈmoʒ.ʒi → ʔẽw̃.ˈmuʒ.ʒi)

F
[ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi] [ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ] [ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi] [kax.ˈxãː]
VC[+glide][+nasalized] → Ṽ[+long] (əw̃.ˈget.tɕi → ə̃ː.ˈget.tɕi, ˈpɾ̥ɐj̃.dɨ → ˈpɾ̥ɐ̃ː.dɨ, ʔew̃.ˈmoʃ.ʃi → ʔẽː.ˈmoʃ.ʃi, kax.ˈxaj̃ → kax.ˈxãː)
[+palatal] → j / _{C, #} (ə̃ː.ˈget.tɕi → ə̃ː.ˈgej.tɕi, ʔẽː.ˈmoʃ.ʃi → ʔẽː.ˈmoj.ʃi)
ɾ̥ → ɾ (ˈpɾ̥ɐ̃ː.dɨ → ˈpɾɐ̃ː.dɨ)
[+stop][+voice] → [+liquid] / V_V (ə̃ː.ˈgej.tɕi → ə̃ː.ˈɰej.tɕi, ˈpɾɐ̃ː.dɨ → ˈpɾɐ̃ː.ɾɨ)

Proto-GH
[əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi] [ˈptɐn.dɨ] [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]
ɬʲ → ʎ (ʔem.ˈmoɬʲ.ɬʲi → ʔem.ˈmoʎ.ʎi)
V[+mid] → V[+high][+central] / _[+palatal] (əŋ.ˈget.tɕi → əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi, ʔem.ˈmoʎ.ʎi → ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi)
x → χ (kax.ˈxan → kaχ.ˈχan)
a → ɑ / {χ_, _χ} (kaχ.ˈχan → kɑχ.ˈχɑn)

G
[ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’] [ˈt’ɐnd] [ˈmʉʎ] [ˈqχɑn]
V[-stress] → Ø (əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi → ŋ̩.ˈgɨttɕ, ˈptɐn.dɨ → ˈptɐnd, ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi → ˈʔmmʉʎʎ, kɑχ.ˈχɑn → ˈkχχɑn)
C[+POA1]C[POA2] → C[POA2]C[POA2] (ˈptɐnd → ˈttɐnd, ˈkχχɑn → ˈqχχɑn)
ʔ → Ø / _C (ˈʔmmʉʎʎ → ˈmmʉʎʎ)
[+geminate][+stop/affricate] → [+ejective][-geminate][+stop/affricate] (ŋ̩.ˈgɨttɕ → ŋ̩.ˈgɨtɕ’,ˈttɐnd → ˈt’ɐnd)
[+geminate] → [-geminate] / ! V_V (ˈmmʉʎʎ → ˈmʉʎ, ˈqχχɑn → ˈqχɑn)

H
[əŋ.ˈgətɕi] [ˈpθən.də] [ʔem.ˈmʉʎ.ʎi] [kɑχ.ˈχɑn]
[+stop] → [+fricative] / _C[+stop] (ˈptɐn.dɨ → ˈpθɐn.dɨ)
ɨ ɐ → ə (əŋ.ˈgɨt.tɕi → əŋ.ˈgətɕi, ˈpθɐn.dɨ → ˈpθən.də)

Proto-East
[ˈʁet.tsɪ] [pɔ.ˈdɐ.ɹə] [ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ] [ˈʔah.hah]
[+stop][+prenasalized] → [+stop][-prenasalized] (ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ → ɢet.tsɪ, pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə → pɔ.ˈtɐ.də)
q ɢ → ʔ ʁ (ɢet.tsɪ → ˈʁet.tsɪ, ˈqah.han̥ → ʔah.han̥)
n̥ → h (ʔah.han̥ → ˈʔah.hah)
C[+stop][-voice] C[+stop][+voice] → C[+stop][+voice] C[+approximate] (pɔ.ˈtɐ.də → pɔ.ˈdɐ.ɹə)

Proto-IJKL
[ˈʁe.tsɪ] [pɔ.ˈdɑ.ɹə] [ʔe.ˈmo.lɛ] [ˈʔa.ha]
h → Ø / _{C, #} (ˈʔah.hah → ˈʔa.ha)
ɐ → ɑ (pɔ.ˈdɐ.ɹə → pɔ.ˈdɑ.ɹə)
[+geminate] → [-geminate] (ˈʁet.tsɪ → ˈʁe.tsɪ, ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ → ʔe.ˈmo.lɛ)

Proto-IJ
[ˈʀets] [ɔ.ˈdɑɹ] [ø.ˈmol] [ˈah]
V → Ø / _# (ˈʁe.tsɪ → ˈʁets, pɔ.ˈdɑ.ɹə → pɔ.ˈdɑɹ, ʔe.ˈmo.lɛ → ʔe.ˈmol, ˈʔa.ha → ˈʔah)
V[-rounded] → V[+rounded] / {C[+labial]_, _C[+labial]} (ʔe.ˈmol → ʔø.ˈmol)
ʁ → ʀ (ˈʁets → ˈʀets)
[+stop][-voice] → Ø / #_ (pɔ.ˈdɑɹ → ɔ.ˈdɑɹ, ʔø.ˈmol → ø.ˈmol, ˈʔah → ˈah)

I
[ˈʀedz] [ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ] [ø.ˈmʌlˤ] [ˈaː]
Vh → V[+long] / _# (ˈah → ˈaː)
C[-voice] → C[+voice] / V_# (ˈʀets → ˈʀedz)
[+liquid] → [+liquid][+pharyngealized] / _# (ɔ.ˈdɑɹ → ɔ.ˈdɑɹˤ, ø.ˈmol → ø.ˈmolˤ)
V → ʌ / _C[+pharyngealized] (ɔ.ˈdɑɹˤ → ɔ.ˈdʌɹˤ, ø.ˈmolˤ → ø.ˈmʌlˤ)

J
[ˈʕets] [u.ˈdɑɹ] [y.ˈmoj] [ˈah]
ʀ → ʕ (ˈʀets → ˈʕets)
ɔ ø → u y / [-stress] (ɔ.ˈdɑɹ → u.ˈdɑɹ, ø.ˈmol → y.ˈmol)
l → j / _# (y.ˈmol → y.ˈmoj)

Proto-KL
[ˈʁe.dzi] [pu.ˈɾɑɹ] [ʔi.ˈmo.li] [ˈʔa.ɦa]
ɪ ɔ ə e ɛ → i u Ø i i / [-stress] (ˈʁe.tsɪ → ˈʁe.tsi, pɔ.ˈdɑ.ɹə → pu.ˈdɑɹ, ʔe.ˈmo.lɛ → ʔi.ˈmo.li)
[+obstruent][-voice] → [+obstruent][+voice] / V_V (ˈʁe.tsi → ˈʁe.dzi, ˈʔa.ha → ˈʔa.ɦa)
d → ɾ / V_V (pu.ˈdɑɹ → pu.ˈɾɑɹ)

K
[ˈʝe.ɟʝi] [ɸu.ˈɾɑ] [çi.ˈmo.ʎi] [ˈha.ɦa]
C → C[+palatal] / _V[+high/mid][+front] (ˈʁe.dzi → ˈʝe.ɟʝi, ʔi.ˈmo.li → ci.ˈmo.ʎi)
C → Ø / _{C, #} (pu.ˈɾɑɹ → pu.ˈɾɑ)
[+stop] → [+fricative] / #_ (pu.ˈɾɑ → ɸu.ˈɾɑ, ci.ˈmo.ʎi → çi.ˈmo.ʎi, ˈʔa.ɦa → ˈha.ɦa)

L
[ˈʁe.ze] [po.ˈrɑɹ] [ʔe.ˈmo.je] [ˈʔaː]
C[+affricate] ɾ → C[+fricative] r / V_V (ˈʁe.dzi → ˈʁe.zi, pu.ˈɾɑɹ → pu.ˈrɑɹ)
l → j (ʔi.ˈmo.li → ʔi.ˈmo.ji)
ɦ → Ø (ˈʔa.ɦa → ˈʔaː)
i u → e o / [-stress] (ˈʁe.zi → ˈʁe.ze, pu.ˈrɑɹ → po.ˈrɑɹ, ʔi.ˈmo.ji → ʔe.ˈmo.je)

Proto-MNOP
[ˈqas.se] [pɒ.ˈdɑ.ʐə] [ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa] [ˈʔah.hah]
ʁ → q / #_ (ˈʁet.tsɪ → ˈqet.tsɪ)
e ɪ ɔ ɐ o ɛ → a e ɒ ɑ a (ˈqet.tsɪ → ˈqat.tse, pɔ.ˈdɐ.ɹə → pɒ.ˈdɑ.ɹə, ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ → ʔam.ˈmɒl.la)
ts → s (ˈqat.tse → ˈqas.se)
ɹ l → ʐ ɮ (pɒ.ˈdɑ.ɹə → pɒ.ˈdɑ.ʐə, ʔam.ˈmɒl.la → ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa)

Proto-MN
[ˈqas.sə] [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] [ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] [ˈʔaː.ha]
p → ɸ (pɒ.ˈdɑ.ʐə → ɸɒ.ˈdɑ.ʐə)
Vh → V[+long] / _{C, #} (ˈʔah.hah → ˈʔaː.haː)
VN → Ṽ / _{C, #} (ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa → ʔã.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə)
V[+rounded] V[-rounded] → ø ə / [-stress] (ˈqas.se → ˈqas.sə, ɸɒ.ˈdɑ.ʐə → ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə, ʔã.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə → ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə)
V[+long][-stress] → V[-long][-stress] (ˈʔaː.haː → ˈʔaː.ha)

M
[ˈqa.sə] [ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə] [ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə] [ˈaː.ha]
ʔ → Ø (ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə → ə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə, ˈʔaː.ha → ˈaː.ha)
Nasalization harmony spreads from stressed syllables (ə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə → ə.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə)
[+geminate] → [-geminate] (ˈqas.sə → ˈqa.sə, ə.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə → ə.ˈmɒ.ɮə)

N
[ˈʔas.sə] [ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə] [ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə] [ˈŋaːː.ha]
ʔ → ŋ (ʔə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə → ŋə̃.ˈmɒɮ.ɮə, ˈʔaː.ha → ˈŋaː.ha)
q → ʔ (ˈqas.sə → ˈʔas.sə)
V[-long] V[+long] → V[+long] V[+overlong] / [+stress][+open syllable] (ɸø.ˈdɑ.ʐə → ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə, ˈŋaː.ha → ˈŋaːː.ha)
ʐ → ʒ (ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʐə → ɸø.ˈdɑː.ʒə)

Proto-OP
[ˈqʰaː.se] [pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə] [ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa] [ˈʔʰaː.hah]
ɒ → ɑ (pɒ.ˈdɑ.ʐə → pɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə, ʔam.ˈmɒɮ.ɮa → ʔam.ˈmɑɮ.ɮa)
VC[+obstruent][+geminate] → V[+long]C[+obstruent][-geminate] (ˈqas.se → ˈqaː.se, ʔam.ˈmɑɮ.ɮa → ʔam.ˈmɑː.ɮa, ˈʔah.hah → ˈʔaː.hah)
[+stop] → [+stop][+aspirated] / #_ (ˈqaː.se → ˈqʰaː.se, pɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə → pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə, ʔam.ˈmɑː.ɮa → ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa, ˈʔaː.hah → ˈʔʰaː.hah)

O
[ˈχaː.ze] [ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə] [ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa] [ˈhaː.ɦah]
[+stop][+aspirated] → [+fricative] (ˈqʰaː.se → ˈχaː.se, pʰɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə → ɸɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə, ʔʰam.ˈmɑː.ɮa → ham.ˈmɑː.ɮa, ˈʔʰaː.hah → ˈhaː.hah)
C[+stop] C[+fricative][-voice] → C[+fricative] C[+fricative][+voice] / V_V (ˈχaː.se → ˈχaː.ze, ɸɑ.ˈdɑ.ʐə → ɸɑ.ˈðɑ.ʐə, ˈhaː.hah → ˈhaː.ɦah)
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

Ratsawn wrote: 30 Sep 2020 20:36 Congratulations to Shimobaatar! You have correctly guessed all four words, and (and at this I am especially surprised) EVERY SINGLE ONE of the intermediary forms. Great work, this was so fun for me and I hope it was fun for y'all. I can't wait to participate in the next challenge, Shimobaatar.
The words were:
1: [ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ] 2: [pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə] 3: [ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ] 4: [ˈqah.han̥]
Oh wow, thank you! Your responses after each round were very helpful. This was indeed a lot of fun! Thanks as well for laying out all of the sound changes involved. [:)]

I'm expecting to be pretty busy these next few days, but hopefully I'll be able to come up with something soon!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

shimobaatar wrote: 01 Oct 2020 20:20 I'm expecting to be pretty busy these next few days, but hopefully I'll be able to come up with something soon!
A quick update: I'm still busier than I'd ideally like to be, but the next challenge is currently in progress. [:)]
shimobaatar
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

The languages involved in this round's challenge have been listed from west to east below. Otherwise, however, I've decided to deviate from my usual format. For this round, here are 5 words/sets of cognates in 18 related languages.

Now that I've finished preparing everything, I'm starting to worry that I may have made things too difficult/complicated. I don't want to delay the game any longer by starting over, though, and it's honestly hard to predict how easy or hard others will find something I made. I'm ready and willing to give hints if needed, however, and to be a forgiving judge, so to speak.

With all that said:

A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]

B [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff] - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ] - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav] - [ˈzeɣəm]

C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]

D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]

E [ˈʔun] - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs] - [tʊˈɫað] - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa] - [ˈzɛɫ]

F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]

G [ˈhuːŋ] - [retˈt͡sisse] - [sexˈxɔːreŋ] - [jekˈkyːtɔ] - [jeˈgiːleŋ]

H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]

I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]

J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]

K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]

L [ˈsoʊ̯n] - [r̩ˈɲinz] - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin] - [ʒeŋˈgiːto] - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]

M [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo] - [twiˈɲɛɻu] - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯] - [jiˈwemʲu]

N [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo] - [ˈtyːnaːʒo] - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː] - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]

O [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo] - [ˈtubbʌːje] - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf] - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]

P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]

Q [ˈrɔɪ̯z] - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra] - [taxˈxɔɐ̯] - [zɛˈgʏtta] - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]

R [ˈzwɛʃ] - [ɣəjˈjez] - [ˈtxwɛx] - [ʒəˈguddə] - [ˈɣɣem̥x]

Edit: Minor corrections made to 8 of the words.
Edit: A minor correction made to a 9th word.
Last edited by shimobaatar on 15 Oct 2020 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
Ratsawn
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

I'll put in my guesses for the forms in a couple days, likely. I just wanted to put forth my proposed groupings first.
Spoiler:
So it appears that there's a split between A-H and I-R, judging by the similar initials in word 1 from I-R and similar structures in both groups which differ from each other.

For second level groupings, G and H appear to be outliers, so I've classified them as their own separate group. Though I do have my doubts that these could just be areal effects. In addition, I-L have some marked differences from M-R, such as the /s/ initial in word 1 vs /z/ or /r/, and the presence of nasal consonants or nasalized vowels that disappear completely in M-R.

Third level, at first glance the languages are split into similar pairs: AB, CD, etc. I'm going to run with that for now unless Shimobaatar gets back to me or the act of reconstruction suggests otherwise.
Comments on these would be appreciated, but if necessary, I'd be happy to take them along with the comments on my reconstructed forms.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

In response to Ratsawn:
Spoiler:
Ratsawn wrote: 12 Oct 2020 03:29 So it appears that there's a split between A-H and I-R, judging by the similar initials in word 1 from I-R and similar structures in both groups which differ from each other.
[cross]
Ratsawn wrote: 12 Oct 2020 03:29 For second level groupings, G and H appear to be outliers, so I've classified them as their own separate group. Though I do have my doubts that these could just be areal effects. In addition, I-L have some marked differences from M-R, such as the /s/ initial in word 1 vs /z/ or /r/, and the presence of nasal consonants or nasalized vowels that disappear completely in M-R.
GH and M-R are both valid groupings at some level, but I-L is not.

I'd recommend always keeping the possibility of areal influence in mind.
Ratsawn wrote: 12 Oct 2020 03:29 Third level, at first glance the languages are split into similar pairs: AB, CD, etc. I'm going to run with that for now unless Shimobaatar gets back to me or the act of reconstruction suggests otherwise.
[tick] Yes, at the level immediately above the present situation, so to speak, the family can be split into 9 groups of 2.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

I'm working on a response, but some of the words are tripping me up, lol, and need to work around a few evening shifts.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]

B [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff] - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ] - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav] - [ˈzeɣəm]

AB [goDin] – [əɖnanDiməspo] – [twaxaɖnəR] – [mek:uDiTagu] – [iDexəm]

C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]

D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]

CD [ħuem] – [rnd͡zimpʰɒ] – [tɒħlænd͡zi] – [empeut͡sɒu] – [id͡zelemi]

*CD /l/ seems to correspond to AB /x/, suggesting a shift of l > ʟ > x, c.f. Fáralo to Namɨdu
*Similarly, AB /g/ and CD /ħ/

Proto-ABCD: [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]

E [ˈʔun] - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs] - [tʊˈɫað] - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa] - [ˈzɛɫ]

F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]

EF [ho:n] – [erad͡zi:fs] – [tulaude] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [ed͡zaile]

G [ˈhuːŋ] - [retˈt͡sisse] - [sexˈxɔːreŋ] - [jekˈkyːtɔ] - [jeˈgiːleŋ]

H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]

GH [ho:n] – [ret͡sisse] – [sexa:ren] – [heku:ta] – [jegi:len]

Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]

I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]

J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]

IJ [sun] – [rendes] – [toljon] – [hoŋketa] – [hiljam]

K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]

L [ˈsoʊ̯n] - [r̩ˈɲinz] - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin] - [ʒeŋˈgiːto] - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]

KL [sune] – [raninda] – [tuʃarin] – [deŋgoito] – [keilin]

Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]
* stops /t d k g/ > /θ ð x ɣ/ > /θ θ x x/ > /h/ word initially to IJ
*kʰ > q > ħ in K

M [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo] - [twiˈɲɛɻu] - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯] - [jiˈwemʲu]

N [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo] - [ˈtyːnaːʒo] - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː] - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]

MN [zu:ʃo] – [rnenaiza] – [ty:naʒo] – [ʒiguʃʃau] – [ejwe:mo]

O [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo] - [ˈtubbʌːje] - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf] - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]

P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]

OP [za:ʒa] – [jailɯzo] – [tuboje] – [ʒa:gutt͡ʃaf] – [jeuma]
*a: ai au oi merge into /ʌ:/ in O

Q [ˈrɔɪ̯z] - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra] - [taxˈxɔɐ̯] - [zɛˈgʏtta] - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]

R [ˈzwɛʃ] - [ɣəjˈjez] - [ˈtxwɛx] - [ʒəˈguddə] - [ˈɣɣem̥x]

QR – [zɔiz] – [ɣɔjeza] – [taxɔh] – [zegutta] – [gaɣehm]
h > ɐ̯ in Q, > x with voiceless modification in R

Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] – [toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] – [ɣeɣema]
*ŋ is most likely here, as *ŋ > n, ŋ > g (with gʷ from rounded vowels becoming *b in OP, or ɣ > x in QR, while preexisting * ɣ > g beforehand)


Proto-ABCD: [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]

Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]

Proto-AH – [ɣoðim] – [erẽtĩpsa] – [toɣlãdir] – [ẽkeuditau] – [eɟelemi]

Nasal vowels – in ABCD they separate into VN or NV, in EFGH they just denasalize

Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]

Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] –[toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] - [ɣeɣema]

Proto-IR – [soisã] – [rãnidas] – [tõliorun] – [zeŋkeutiau] – [geliama]

Proto-World – [sxosem] – [rantimsas] – [toŋliandur] – [jeŋkeutitau] – [geliame]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

There are a few things that I'd like to clarify for everyone's sake:

First, I count long vowels as single segments. I typically transcribe geminates as [CC], but for the purposes of this game I'll try to count them as single segments. For example, if someone reconstructs [r] where I have [rr], I'll consider that one partially correct segment, not one fully correct segment and one missing segment.

However, I'm going to be counting diphthongs as two segments. For the purposes of this game, if I see just [au], for instance, I'm going to assume it's intended to be a diphthong unless I'm told otherwise. Similarly, if I see a non-high vowel immediately preceded and followed by two high vowels, I'm going to assume the two high vowels are intended to be non-syllabic.

Finally, I would advise against ignoring stress placement. It won't factor into counting segments, of course, but I won't consider a word correct if the placement of stress is either reconstructed incorrectly or not indicated at all.

sangi39 wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:05 I'm working on a response, but some of the words are tripping me up, lol, and need to work around a few evening shifts.
No worries, take your time! I'm planning to wait until several people have made reconstruction attempts before giving anyone in-depth feedback.

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 […]
I've looked over your post and fully responded to it, but as I mentioned above, I'm going to wait until a few people have submitted their guesses before posting in-depth feedback for anyone.

However, in the mean time, I have a few basic comments/questions:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 AB [goDin] – [əɖnanDiməspo] – [twaxaɖnəR] – [mek:uDiTagu] – [iDexəm]
What do these capital letters mean? Are they meant to stand in for unknown/uncertain segments, or are you using X-SAMPA or something similar?
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 h > ɐ̯ in Q, > x with voiceless modification in R
What do you mean by "voiceless modification"? Just "devoicing"?
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] – [toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] – [ɣeɣema]
*ŋ is most likely here, as *ŋ > n, ŋ > g (with gʷ from rounded vowels becoming *b in OP, or ɣ > x in QR, while preexisting * ɣ > g beforehand)
Since you mention OP here, I'm assuming this is intended to be the protolanguage for M-R (MNOPQR), not just MN and QR.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

shimobaatar wrote: 13 Oct 2020 03:19 There are a few things that I'd like to clarify for everyone's sake:

First, I count long vowels as single segments. I typically transcribe geminates as [CC], but for the purposes of this game I'll try to count them as single segments. For example, if someone reconstructs [r] where I have [rr], I'll consider that one partially correct segment, not one fully correct segment and one missing segment.

However, I'm going to be counting diphthongs as two segments. For the purposes of this game, if I see just [au], for instance, I'm going to assume it's intended to be a diphthong unless I'm told otherwise. Similarly, if I see a non-high vowel immediately preceded and followed by two high vowels, I'm going to assume the two high vowels are intended to be non-syllabic.

Finally, I would advise against ignoring stress placement. It won't factor into counting segments, of course, but I won't consider a word correct if the placement of stress is either reconstructed incorrectly or not indicated at all.

sangi39 wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:05 I'm working on a response, but some of the words are tripping me up, lol, and need to work around a few evening shifts.
No worries, take your time! I'm planning to wait until several people have made reconstruction attempts before giving anyone in-depth feedback.

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 […]
I've looked over your post and fully responded to it, but as I mentioned above, I'm going to wait until a few people have submitted their guesses before posting in-depth feedback for anyone.

However, in the mean time, I have a few basic comments/questions:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 AB [goDin] – [əɖnanDiməspo] – [twaxaɖnəR] – [mek:uDiTagu] – [iDexəm]
What do these capital letters mean? Are they meant to stand in for unknown/uncertain segments, or are you using X-SAMPA or something similar?
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 h > ɐ̯ in Q, > x with voiceless modification in R
What do you mean by "voiceless modification"? Just "devoicing"?
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] – [toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] – [ɣeɣema]
*ŋ is most likely here, as *ŋ > n, ŋ > g (with gʷ from rounded vowels becoming *b in OP, or ɣ > x in QR, while preexisting * ɣ > g beforehand)
Since you mention OP here, I'm assuming this is intended to be the protolanguage for M-R (MNOPQR), not just MN and QR.
1. Capital letters: T is *t or *ts, D is *d or *dz, and R was originally *r, perhaps shifting to retroflex *ɽ in Proto-AB.

2. Devoicing of adjacent consonants.

3. Yes, OP is included.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

So, preliminary guess, the vast majority of it was thrown together while half asleep, lol, but I'll try to explain what I've done as I read back through it, just to add some clarity:

Spoiler:

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A  [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu]   - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]
B  [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff]   - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ]    - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav]  - [ˈzeɣəm]
AB [ˈɣozɛɲ] - [ɳɖɔnˈziməspo] - [tʷaʔˈɣɔɳɖəɻ]  - [beŋˈkuzitɕaɣu]  - [iˈðeʔɣəm]
There seems to have been some sort of regressive nasalisation, the first step appearing in A (nasalisation of a vowel preceding a nasal consonant), and then a further step in B (nasalisation of any preceding voiced plosives).

I suspect the [g]~[v] correspondence goes back to an older [ɣ], and I have my suspicions that this might also explain the initial [ b]~[m] correspondence in Word C, but I'm honestly not sure.

I just realised that I might have reconstructed the wrong eary form for [ð]~[z], which could go back to earlier [ð], giving:

[ˈɣoðɛɲ] - [ɳɖɔnˈðiməspo] - [tʷaʔˈɣɔɳɖəɻ] - [beŋˈkuðitɕaɣu] - [iˈðeʔɣəm]

Giving what happens later on down the page, I'm not sure [ʔɣ] constitutes a cluster or a single phoneme, and I've mostly just used it as a handwave to explain the alveolar ejective and the velar affricate in A. I'm fairly certain that it is something distinct, though.


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C  [ˈħem]   - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ]  - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ]  - [jiˈd͡ʒlemɨ]
D  [ˈħyə̯m]  - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa]   - [taħˈɫand͡z]   - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so]     - [ʔɪˈʒɛɫm]
CD [ˈħøm]   - [rɨnˈdzimpʰo]  - [toħˈlandzɨ]   - [jemˈpʼyːtsɔ]   - [ɪˈdʒelemɨ]
This one seemed a little easier to work through, although I'm a little unsure about the [dz]~[dʒ]~[ʒ] alternations. They feel like they might have a different origin, but ended up merging phonetically in certain environments in C.

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E  [ˈʔun]   - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs]     - [tʊˈɫað]      - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa]     - [ˈzɛɫ]
F  [ˈwoːŋ]  - [jerˈd͡ziffe]  - [tuˈloːde]    - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa]  - [jeˈd͡zeːle]
EF [ˈɣoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈd͡zi:fse]   - [tuˈloːde]    - [ɣepˈkuːtsa]    - [eˈd͡zeːle]
This is where my thing about [ʔɣ] above starts to fall over. There seems to be some evidence of a cluster somewhere back in time, possibly [ħl], [ħʟ], [ɣl], or something along those lines.


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G  [ˈhuːŋ]  - [retˈt͡sisse]  - [sexˈxɔːreŋ]   - [jekˈkyːtɔ]     - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
H  [ˈhom]   - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs]      - [ˈsxarn]       - [ɪˈcuðɐ]        - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]
GH [ˈhoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈtsɪsse]     - [sexˈxɔːreŋ]   - [ɪkˈky:ta]      - [jeˈgiːleŋ]

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I  [ˈsum]   - [ˈrɛnʒes]      - [ˈsoʎən]       - [ˈwɪŋketa]      - [ˈsiʎəm]
J  [ˈsõɪ̯̃]   - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo]     - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃]       - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda]      - [ˈŋiə̯ɮɔ̃ɐ̯̃]
IJ [ˈsuim]  - [ˈrjɛndeso]    - [ˈtolæn]       - [ˈɣemkæta]      - [ˈhilæm]
So I think this is the first of the eastern branches, given the initial in Word 1. There's a few things that apparently I couldn't quite wrap my head around (some of the initials and the differing vowel qualities), but something's better than nothing.


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K  [ˈsũvɛ]  - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ]      - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃]       - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɔ]      - [ħɪˈʕĩː]
L  [ˈsoʊ̯n]  - [r̩ˈɲinz]       - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin]    - [ʒeŋˈgiːto]     - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]
KL [ˈso:m]  - [r̩ˈɲindɐ]      - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin]    - [ʒeŋˈgiːto]     - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]

This is around about where I started thinking Word 3's initial might not be a matter of co-articulation, or being an affricate, but something like a laminal plosive, which, IIRC, a prone to affrication or frication, which could explain the sporadic nature of the correspondences between branches.

And again there's that [l]~[guttural] correspondence.


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M  [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo]     - [twiˈɲɛɻu]     - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯]     - [jiˈwemʲu]
N  [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo]    - [ˈtyːnaːʒo]    - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː]    - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]
MN [ˈzoːʒu] - [ɳæːˈneːzo]    - [ˈtyːɲæːru]    - [ˈʒiːgutʃoː]    - [ˈjeɣeimu]
I'm not 100% sure what was going through my head at this point [:P]


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O  [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo]  - [ˈtubbʌːje]    - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf]  - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]
P  [ˈzaʒa]  - [jɛˈlɯzo]      - [tuˈwɔje]      - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa]     - [ˈjema]
OP [ˈzʌʒa]  - [ˈjɐːlɯːzo]    - [tuˈwɔje]      - [ʒʌˈguttʃaf]    - [ˈjaːma]

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Q  [ˈrɔɪ̯z]  - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra]     - [taxˈxɔɐ̯]      - [zɛˈgʏtta]      - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]
R  [ˈzwɛʃ]  - [ɣəjˈjez]      - [ˈtxwɛx]       - [ʒəˈguddə]      - [ˈɣɣem̥x]
QR [ˈzɔɪʒ]  - [ɣɛɪˈjeza]     - [taˈxɔɪx]      - [ʒeˈgutta]      - [ɣaˈɣem̥]



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AB [ˈɣozɛɲ] - [ɳɖɔnˈðiməspo] - [tʷaʔˈɣɔɳɖəɻ]  - [beŋˈkuzitɕaɣu]  - [iˈzeʔɣəm]
CD [ˈħøm]   - [rɨnˈdzimpʰo]  - [toħˈlandʒɨ]   - [jemˈpʼyːtsɔ]    - [ɪˈdʒelemɨ]
AD [ˈɣozɛN] - [r̩nˈdziməspo]  - [toħˈʟandʒəɻ]  - [ɣemˈkuzitɕaɣ]   - [iˈdʒeʔʟəm]
I'm not sure -[məsp]- is actually original, or if it's something simpler that just became more complex in AD, because I can't really see any counterpart to it in the other branches, and there might be similar issues with -[zi]-


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EF [ˈɣoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈd͡zi:fse]   - [tuˈloːde]     - [ɣepˈkuːtsa]     - [eˈd͡zeːle]
GH [ˈhoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈtsɪsse]     - [sexˈxɔːreŋ]   - [ɪkˈky:ta]       - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
EH [ˈɣoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈtsi:fse]    - [toxˈʟɔːdeŋ]   - [ɣemˈkuːtsa]     - [jeˈgeːleŋ]
The -[f]- in Word 2 is the only thing I could tie to -[məsp]- in AD, and I'm honestly not sure what's going on there.


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IJ [ˈsuim]  - [ˈrjɛndeso]    - [ˈtolæn]       - [ˈɣemkæta]      - [ˈhilæm]
KL [ˈsoʊ̯n]  - [r̩ˈɲinz]       - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin]    - [ʒeŋˈgiːto]     - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]
IL [ˈsoːn]  - [riˈndezo]     - [ˈtæːlen]      - [ɣemˈkæto]      - [ˈhe:lem]
Word 2 caused me some problems. I'm assuming IJ is more conservative.


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MN [ˈzoːʒu] - [ɳæːˈneːzo]    - [ˈtyːɲæːru]    - [ˈʒiːgutʃoː]    - [ˈjeɣeimu]
OP [ˈzʌʒa]  - [ˈjɐːlɯːzo]    - [tuˈwɔje]      - [ʒʌˈguttʃaf]    - [ˈjaːma]
QR [ˈzɔɪʒ]  - [ɣɛɪˈjeza]     - [taˈxɔɪx]      - [ʒeˈgutta]      - [ɣaˈɣem̥]
MR [ˈzɔɪʒ]  - [ɣeˈndezo]     - [tu:ˈxɔɪx]     - [ʒeːˈguttav]    - [jaˈɣem̥]
I'm assuming these three branches constitute some closely related branch (more closely related to each other than to anything else), but I'm not sure if they all split off at once, or if there's some other split within the group, e.g. MN-OP splitting from QR.

MR [tu:ˈxɔɪx] feels like it could be better reconstructed with some sort of lateral in place of the first [x], but given the lack or similar correspondence in Word 5, I'm note sure.




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AD [ˈɣozɛN] - [r̩nˈdziməspo]  - [toħˈʟandʒəɻ]  - [ɣemˈkuzitɕaɣu]  - [iˈdʒeʔʟəm]
EH [ˈɣoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈtsi:fse]    - [toxˈʟɔːdeŋ]   - [ɣemˈkuːtsa]     - [jeˈgeːleŋ]
AH [ˈɣozɛŋ] - [r̩nˈtsiməspo]  - [toħˈʟandəɻ]   - [ɣemˈkuzitɕaɣ]   - [jiˈgeħʟəŋ]
As with AD, I'm not sure if -[məsp]- actually goes back this far, and the same for -[zi]-

I'm also really unsure about that final [ɻ] so I'm assuming I've gone wrong somewhere down the line.


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IL [ˈsoːn]  - [riˈndezo]     - [ˈtæːlen]      - [ɣemˈgæto]      - [ˈhe:lem]
MR [ˈzɔɪʒ]  - [ɣeˈndezo]     - [tu:ˈxɔɪx]     - [ʒeːˈguttav]    - [jaˈɣem̥] 
IR [ˈsozn]  - [reˈndezo]     - [tu:ˈʟeɻ]      - [ɣeːˈguttav]    - [jaˈʟem̥]
Again, very unsure about that [ɻ], I think I've just thrown it there so there's something written down, but I'm fairly certain it's wrong.




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AH [ˈɣozɛŋ] - [r̩nˈtsiməspo]  - [toħˈʟandəɻ]   - [ɣemˈkuzitɕaɣu] - [jiˈgeħʟəŋ]
IR [ˈsozn]  - [reˈndezo]     - [tu:ˈleɻ]      - [ɣeːˈguttav]    - [jaˈʟem̥]
AR [ˈʃozen] - [reˈntezo]     - [tuħˈʟendeɻ]   - [ɣemˈkuttaɣ]   - [eˈgeħʟəm]
I am utterly sure this is wrong. [ˈʃozen] feels like it should be something more akin to [ˈʃoden], and without knowing what's going on with -[məsp]- or -[zi]-, I feel like I'm missing some key part of the puzzle for Word 2 and Word 4.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 14 Oct 2020 19:31 1. Capital letters: T is *t or *ts, D is *d or *dz, and R was originally *r, perhaps shifting to retroflex *ɽ in Proto-AB.
Thanks for the clarifications! I'll update my feedback to reflect this.

sangi39 wrote: 14 Oct 2020 23:38 So, preliminary guess, the vast majority of it was thrown together while half asleep, lol, but I'll try to explain what I've done as I read back through it, just to add some clarity:
I'm going to wait for Ratsawn's attempt before responding in detail to anyone. In the mean time, feel free to make any changes you'd like, but if you do, let me know so that I can update my response to you.

I've started going over your work here already, sangi39, and there's something I want to point out right away. A few days after I first posted the challenge for this round, but before anyone had responded, I edited my original post to make corrections to 8 of the words. I guess you must have gotten an early start on this, though, because it looks like you've been working off of the pre-correction "data". For your reference, here are the words I changed, in bold:
Spoiler:
C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]

D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]

F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]

H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]

I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]

J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]

K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]

P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Ratsawn »

Man, this challenge makes reconstructing PIE laryngeals look like a walk in the park.

First off, I'd like to apologize for the delay. My process is slow and my schoolwork has picked up considerably this week. To accelerate the gameplay, I've done a lot of guesswork and forsook my standard system, so I have minimal comments and questions this round.
Spoiler:
So, after Shimobaatar's comments, my new proposed groupings are:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R
AB CD EF GH IJ KL MN OP QR
ABCDEF GHIJKL MNOPQR
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQR

And the forms:
Proto-AB
1: *ˈgwoðen
2: *ɳɳãˈðiməspo
3: *ptaˈk͡xãɳɳəɻ
4: *mempˈkuðit͡sagwu
5: *iˈðek͡xəm

Proto-CD
1: *ˈħyə̯m
2: *ɹɨnˈd͡zimpʰo
3: *taħˈland͡zɨ
4: *ʔemˈp’əʏ̯t͡so
5: *ʔɪd͡ʒe[l, ɫ]mɨ

Proto-EF
1: *ˈʔun
2: *ɹaˈd͡zifse
3: *tulaːde
4: *ʔepˈkuːt͡sa
5: *ʔed͡ze[ɫ, l]e

Proto-ABCDEF
1: *ˈqwoðen
2: *ɹanˈdinspo
3: *ptakˈlandəɻ
4: *ʔempˈkuːðit͡sagwu
5: *ʔɪˈdeklem

Proto-GH
1: *ˈhun
2: *retˈt͡sisse
3: *sexˈxɔːren
4: *jɪkˈkyːtɐ
5: *jeˈgeːlen

Proto-IJ
1: *ˈsum
2: *ˈrjɛnd͡zĩso
3: *ˈtoʎən
4: *ˈŋɪŋkpeta
5: *ˈŋilam

Proto-KL
1: *ˈsunvɛ
2: *rəˈnind͡zɐ
3: *ˈtʊʃin
4: *deŋˈgœʏ̯tɐ
5: *ˈkʰɪlin

Proto-GHIJKL
1: *ˈsunv
2: *renˈt͡sinso
3: *ʔɪŋˈkpyːtɐ
4: *jeˈgɪlen
5: *ˈtorjen

Proto-MN
1: *ˈzuːʒo
2: *naːˈneːzo
3: *tyːˈnaːʒo
4: *ʒjaˈguʃʃaʊ̯
5: *jeˈʒʒeːmʲo

Proto-OP
1: *ˈzaːʒa
2: *jaːˈlɯːzo
3: *tuˈbbaːje
4: *ʒaːˈgutt͡ʃaf
5: *ˈjeːme

Proto-QR
1: *ˈzɔɪ̯ʒ
2: *ɣɔˈjeza
3: *taxˈxɔɪ̯x
4: *ʒɛˈgʏtta
5: *gaˈɣeːmx

Proto-MNOPQR
1: *ˈzɔɪ̯ʒo
2: *ŋaːˈleːzo
3: *tuˈgwaʒa
4: *ŋeʒˈʒeːme
5: *ʒɛˈguttaʊ̯

Proto-World
1: *ˈqwoson
2: *ranˈdenspo
3: *ptaŋˈklentaɻ
4: *ʔempˈkeðit͡sagwu
5: *jeˈtoktem

Alright so most of these are complete trash, but the lowest level of groupings (AB, CD, etc.) are the ones I'm most confident on. To lighten your load, Shimobaatar, for this round I'm most interested in grouping help and sound correspondences where it is not clear which segments correspond to which. I apologize for the guesswork, I'm not usually this inaccurate, but then again I'm not usually submitting my guesses to be judged.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 »

Oookay, so I took the more recent word list (I didn't have much time between work and falling asleep, lol, to notice there had been an update), but I've got a sort of "second preliminary guess" which I feel is a bit more "sound" than the last one:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

A  [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩəspo] - [tʼaˈkxɔ̃ːɖəː]  - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu]   - [iˈðekxə̃ː]
B  [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff]   - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ]    - [mexˈxuzitɕav]   - [ˈzeɣəm]
AB [ˈɣoðiɲ] - [ɳɖanˈðimpso]  - [tʷaˈGaɳɖəR]  - [beŋˈkuðitɕaɣu]  - [iˈðeGəm]
[R] and [G] are stand-ins for uncertain phonemes.

I'm fairly certain that [G] is a cluster involving something velar or further back, or possible a consonant with secondary articulation (velarisation, for example).

[R] honestly throws me. It seems to show evidence of nasality, but it isn't retained like word-final nasals out to be in B.

Code: Select all

C  [ˈħem]   - [rɨnˈdzimpʰo]  - [toħˈlandʒɨ]   - [jemˈpʼiːtsɔ]   - [ˈdʒlemɨ]
D  [ˈħyəm]  - [ɹn̩ˈdzɪɱfa]    - [taħˈɫandz]    - [ʔɛmˈpəʏso]     - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]
CD [ˈħøːm]  - [renˈdzimpʰo]  - [toħˈɫandze]   - [jɛmˈpʼyːtsɔ]   - [iˈdzeɫeme]

Code: Select all

E  [ˈʔun]   - [ɹaˈzaɪfs]     - [tʊˈɫað]      - [ʔɛfˈkaʊsa]     - [ˈzɛɫ]
F  [ˈwoːŋ]  - [jerˈdziffe]   - [tuˈloːde]    - [jeˈkpuːtsa]    - [jeˈdzeːle]
EF [ˈɣoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈdzi:fse]    - [tuˈɫaːde]    - [ɣepˈkuːtsa]    - [eˈdzeːɫe]

Code: Select all

G  [ˈhuːŋ]  - [retˈtsisse]   - [sexˈxɔːreŋ]   - [jekˈkyːtɔ]     - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
H  [ˈhom]   - [r̩ˈdzɪs]       - [ˈsxarn]       - [ɪˈcuːðɐ]       - [ˈʝeʊm]
GH [ˈhoːm]  - [r̩ːˈtsɪsse]    - [sexˈxaːren]   - [jɪkˈky:ta]     - [eˈgilem]

Code: Select all

I  [ˈsum]   - [ˈrɛnʒes]      - [ˈsoʎən]       - [ˈwɪŋketæ]      - [ˈsiʎəm]
J  [ˈsõɪ]   - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo]     - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ]       - [ˈŋõʊpæda]      - [ˈŋiəɮã]
IJ [ˈsoim]  - [ˈrɛndiso]     - [ˈtolaɰən]     - [ˈɣemkæta]      - [ˈhilam]

Code: Select all

K  [ˈsũvɛ]  - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ]      - [tʊˈʃẽɪ]       - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏdɐ]      - [ħɪˈʕĩː]
L  [ˈsoʊn]  - [r̩ˈɲinz]       - [ˈtʃæːrin]     - [ʒeŋˈgiːto]     - [ˈkʰeɪlin]
KL [ˈsuem]  - [rˈnindɐ]     - [ˈtawrin]      - [ɟeŋˈgyːto]     - [ˈqʰɪɫin]

Code: Select all

M  [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪʒo]     - [twiˈɲɛɻu]     - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ]     - [jiˈwemʲu]
N  [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo]    - [ˈtyːnaːʒo]    - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː]    - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]
MN [ˈzoːʒu] - [ɳaːˈniːdo]    - [ˈtyːɲaːɻu]    - [ˈʒeːgutʃoː]    - [ˈjeɣeimu]

Code: Select all

O  [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈdʒʌːlɯːzo]   - [ˈtubbʌːje]    - [ˈʒʌːguddʒaf]   - [ˈdʒoːme]
P  [ˈzaʒa]  - [jɛˈlɯzo]      - [tuˈwɔje]      - [ʒaˈgutʃa]      - [ˈjeːma]
OP [ˈzoːʒe] - [ˈjaːlɯːzo]    - [tuˈwɔje]      - [ʒeˈguttʃaf]    - [ˈjaːma]

Code: Select all

Q  [ˈrɔɪz]  - [ɦɔˈjeɪra]     - [taxˈxɔɐ]      - [zɛˈgʏtta]      - [gaˈɣeɐm]
R  [ˈzwɛʃ]  - [ɣəjˈjez]      - [ˈtxwɛx]       - [ʒəˈguddə]      - [ˈɣɣem̥x]
QR [ˈzɔɪʒ]  - [ɣɛɪˈjeɪza]    - [taˈxɔɪx]      - [ʒeˈgutta]      - [ɣaˈɣemx]



Code: Select all

AB [ˈɣoðiɲ] - [ɳɖanˈðimpso]  - [tʷaˈGaɳɖəR]  - [beŋˈkuðitɕaɣu] - [iˈðeGəm]
CD [ˈħøːm]  - [renˈdzimpʰo]  - [toħˈɫandze]  - [jɛmˈpʼyːtsɔ]   - [iˈdzeɫeme]
AD [ˈɣoðim] - [reˈndimpso]   - [toħˈɫandeR]  - [ɣemˈkuditsaɣu] - [iˈɟe(ħ)ɫəm]

Code: Select all

EF [ˈɣoːŋ]  - [r̩ˈdzi:fse]    - [tuˈɫaːde]    - [ɣepˈkuːtsa]    - [eˈdzeːɫe]
GH [ˈhoːm]  - [r̩ːˈtsɪsse]    - [sexˈxaːren]  - [jɪkˈky:ta]     - [eˈgilem]
EH [ˈɣoːm]  - [r̩nˈtsi:pse]   - [toxˈɫaːdeŋ]  - [ɣemˈkuːtsa]    - [eˈgeːɫem]
                              ~[toxˈɫaːreŋ]

Code: Select all

IJ [ˈsoim]  - [ˈrɛndiso]     - [ˈtolaɰən]     - [ˈɣemkæta]      - [ˈhilam]
KL [ˈsuem]  - [rˈnindɐ]      - [ˈtawrin]      - [ɟeŋˈgyːto]     - [ˈqʰɪɫin]
IL [ˈsoem]  - [reˈndezo]     - [ˈtoɫaren]     - [ɣemˈgæto]      - [ˈɢɪ:ɫem]

Code: Select all

OP [ˈzoːʒe] - [ˈjaːlɯːzo]    - [tuˈwɔje]      - [ʒeˈguttʃaf]    - [ˈjaːma]
QR [ˈzɔɪʒ]  - [ɣɛɪˈjeɪza]    - [taˈxɔɪx]      - [ʒeˈgutta]      - [ɣaˈɣemx]
OR [ˈzɔɪʒe] - [ɣeːˈliːzo]    - [toˈɫɔjex]     - [ʒeːˈguttav]    - [jaˈɣemx]

Code: Select all

MN [ˈzoːʒu] - [ɳaːˈniːdo]    - [ˈtyːɲaːɻu]    - [ˈʒeːgutʃoː]    - [ˈjeɣeimu]
OR [ˈzɔɪʒe] - [ɣeːˈliːzo]    - [toˈɫɔjex]     - [ʒeːˈguttav]    - [jaˈɣemx]
MR [ˈzoːʒe] - [ʀeːˈniːzo]    - [ˈtoːɫaːrex]   - [ˈʒeːguttav]    - [ˈjeɣeimx]



Code: Select all

AD [ˈɣoðim] - [reˈndimpso]   - [toħˈɫandeR]   - [ɣemˈkuditsaɣu] - [iˈɟe(ħ)ɫəm]
EH [ˈɣoːm]  - [r̩nˈtsi:pse]   - [toxˈɫaːdeŋ]   - [ɣemˈkuːtsa]    - [eˈgeːɫem]
AH [ˈɣoðɛm] - [reˈntsimpso]  - [toħˈʟandəɻ]   - [ɣemˈkutitsaɣu] - [eˈgeħʟəm]

Code: Select all

IL [ˈsoem]  - [reˈndezo]     - [ˈtoɫaren]     - [ɣemˈgæto]      - [ˈɢɪ:ɫem]
MR [ˈzoːʒe] - [ʀeːˈniːzo]    - [ˈtoːɫaːrex]   - [ˈʒeːguttav]    - [ˈjeɣeimx]
IR [ˈzozen] - [reˈndiːzo]    - [ˈtoɫaːren]    - [ɣeːˈguttav]    - [jeˈɢɪ:ɫem̥]



Code: Select all

AH [ˈɣoðɛm] - [reˈntsimpso]  - [toħˈʟandəɻ]   - [ɣemˈkutitsaɣu] - [eˈgeħʟəm]
IR [ˈzozen] - [reˈndiːzo]    - [ˈtoɫaːren]    - [ɣeːˈguttav]    - [jeˈɢɪ:ɫem̥]
  ~[ˈzoren]
AR [ˈʒoden] - [reˈntimpso]   - [toħˈlanden]   - [ɣemˈkutitaɣu]  - [eˈgeħlem̥]
There are still bits I'm very unsure of, and I haven't gone into much detail about what patterns I think I'm seeing, but we'll see how it goes (sorry if this ruins your attempts at feedback on my first guess)
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

A couple of announcements:

First, after noticing multiple people's reconstructions deviating from the forms I had in mind in similar ways, I decided to try to work backwards myself. I found a few instances where I had, more or less, the same sound change taking place in two closely related languages, or where the ancestral form I originally had in mind wasn't the most intuitive way to reconstruct something. In these cases, I will be accepting a number of variations as "essentially correct".

Second, I apologize, but while doing what I described above, I believe I found another error. I'll be updating the original post momentarily to reflect this, but this is what's being changed (the length of the pretonic vowel of Word 2 in A, *[əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩə̯̃spo] > [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo]):

A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]

This is a minor change, so it may not have a huge effect on your reconstructions, but I'll be taking the fact that I posted the incorrect form of the word into account before posting my feedback on your first round of guesses. If you do want to adjust something in light of this before I post my feedback, however, please let me know.

Finally, I expect to be able to post my responses to the three of you before this weekend.

Ratsawn wrote: 15 Oct 2020 07:09 First off, I'd like to apologize for the delay. My process is slow and my schoolwork has picked up considerably this week. To accelerate the gameplay, I've done a lot of guesswork and forsook my standard system, so I have minimal comments and questions this round.
Oh, no worries at all!

Everyone: please feel free to take as much time as you need to be able to submit something you're reasonably satisfied with. Also, I don't mind being given a lot of "material", so to speak, to look over. The more you give me, the more I have to respond to.

sangi39 wrote: 15 Oct 2020 22:26 Oookay, so I took the more recent word list (I didn't have much time between work and falling asleep, lol, to notice there had been an update), but I've got a sort of "second preliminary guess" which I feel is a bit more "sound" than the last one:

[…]

There are still bits I'm very unsure of, and I haven't gone into much detail about what patterns I think I'm seeing, but we'll see how it goes (sorry if this ruins your attempts at feedback on my first guess)
It's no problem! I'll go over what you have here as soon as I can.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar »

In response to ɶʙ ɞʛ:
Spoiler:
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 AB [goDin] – [əɖnanDiməspo] – [twaxaɖnəR] – [mek:uDiTagu] – [iDexəm]
Word 1 - The vowels are correct. 
Word 2 - The vowels are correct. Three consonants are correct as well.
Word 3 - The vowels are correct. The initial cluster is also correct, and there is a [ɖ] in the word. 
Word 4 - The vowels are correct, as is the initial [m-]. [kː] is partially correct. 
Word 5 - The vowels are correct.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 14 Oct 2020 19:31 1. Capital letters: T is *t or *ts, D is *d or *dz, and R was originally *r, perhaps shifting to retroflex *ɽ in Proto-AB.
I might accept [t͡s] and [d͡z] as essentially correct. Both [r] and [ɽ] are close, but not spot-on. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 CD [ħuem] – [rnd͡zimpʰɒ] – [tɒħlænd͡zi] – [empeut͡sɒu] – [id͡zelemi]
Word 1 - The consonants are correct.
Word 2 - The consonants are essentially correct, as is [-i-]. There's something missing, however.
Word 3 - Four of the consonants are correct. 
Word 4 - Two of the consonants are correct, and the other is slightly off. [e-] is also correct.
Word 5 - Two of the consonants are correct. One instance of [i] and one instance of [e] are correct as well.

For Word 3, I'll say that there's no need to reconstruct [-æ-]. Both C and D have [-a-] there. 
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 *CD /l/ seems to correspond to AB /x/, suggesting a shift of l > ʟ > x, c.f. Fáralo to Namɨdu
*Similarly, AB /g/ and CD /ħ/
[tick] [cross] You're right about the correspondence between A [k͡x], B [ɣ], C [l], and D [ɫ], but not about the way it happened, so to speak. I can't say I'm familiar with the languages you mentioned. 

[tick] In Word 1, there is indeed a correspondence between A [g], B [v], and C & D [ħ]. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-ABCD:  [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]
ABCD is not a valid grouping. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 EF [ho:n] – [erad͡zi:fs] – [tulaude] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [ed͡zaile]
Word 1 - Two of the three segments are correct. The third may be close enough. 
Word 2 - Three consonants are correct, and the other is essentially correct as well. Additionally, two of the vowels are correct.
Word 3 - The consonants and the first vowel are correct. Another segment is partially correct. 
Word 4 - Only one segment is partially off. 
Word 5 - The consonants are correct.

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 GH [ho:n] – [ret͡sisse] – [sexa:ren] – [heku:ta] – [jegi:len]
Word 1 - Two of the three segments are correct. 
Word 2 - [-i-] is correct. One consonant is off. 
Word 3 - [aː] is correct, as are the consonants, for the most part. [x] is partially correct.
Word 4 - [-uːta] is correct, and [k] is partially correct as well.
Word 5 - [g] and [l] are correct. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]
EFGH is not a valid grouping. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 IJ [sun] – [rendes] – [toljon] – [hoŋketa] – [hiljam]
Word 1 - [s-] is correct. 
Word 2 - Three of the consonants are correct.
Word 3 - One instance of [-o-] and the final [-n] are correct. [l] is partially correct.
Word 4 - Three of the consonants are correct. Two of the vowels are partially correct.
Word 5 - The final consonant and the vowels are correct. The initial consonant could also be counted as correct. [l] is partially correct. 

You're missing at least one syllable from 4 out of the 5 words. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 KL [sune] – [raninda] – [tuʃarin] – [deŋgoito] – [keilin]
Word 1 - The initial consonant and final vowel are correct.
Word 2 - Two of the vowels and [r-] are correct. One instance of [-n-] is correct, and the other is partially correct.
Word 3 - One consonant is partially correct, and the others are all correct. Similarly, one vowel is partially correct, while the others are both correct. 
Word 4 - Three consonants are correct, as is [-e-]. The final vowel could be counted as partially correct. 
Word 5 - [-eɪ̯lin] is essentially correct. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]
* stops /t d k g/ > /θ ð x ɣ/ > /θ θ x x/ > /h/ word initially to IJ
*kʰ > q > ħ in K
IJKL is not a valid grouping. 

[cross] Neither of those two sound changes took place.

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 MN [zu:ʃo] – [rnenaiza] – [ty:naʒo] – [ʒiguʃʃau] – [ejwe:mo]
Word 1 - [z-] is correct. Another segment is partially correct. 
Word 2 - [-z-], one instance of [-n-], and [aɪ̯] are all correct. 
Word 3 - [t-] is correct.
Word 4 - [ʒ-gu-aʊ̯] is correct, and the remaining segments aren't too far off.
Word 5 - [-m-] is correct. [-e-] and [-j-] are also present in this word, but their placements are off. 

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 OP [za:ʒa] – [jailɯzo] – [tuboje] – [ʒa:gutt͡ʃaf] – [jeuma]
Word 1 - The consonants are correct.
Word 2 - The consonants and [-o] are correct. [-ɯ-] is partially correct.
Word 3 - Two of the consonants and two of the vowels are correct.
Word 4 - [ʒ-gu-af] is correct, and the remaining segments aren't too far off.
Word 5 - The final vowel is off.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 *a: ai au oi merge into /ʌ:/ in O
[cross]

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 QR – [zɔiz] – [ɣɔjeza] – [taxɔh] – [zegutta] – [gaɣehm]
Word 1 - One segment is off, but close. 
Word 2 - One vowel is correct and another is partially correct. Two of the consonants are correct and the third is close.
Word 3 - One consonant is correct, and one vowel is partially correct.
Word 4 - One consonant and two vowels are correct. The remaining segments are fairly close.
Word 5 - Two consonants and one vowel are correct.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 h > ɐ̯ in Q, > x with voiceless modification in R
[cross] Not exactly.

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] – [toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] – [ɣeɣema]
Word 1 - One segment is correct, and another is partially correct. 
Word 2 - Two segments are correct.
Word 3 - One segment is correct, and another is partially correct.
Word 4 - One segment is correct, and two more are partially correct.
Word 5 - Four segments are correct.
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 *ŋ is most likely here, as *ŋ > n, ŋ > g (with gʷ from rounded vowels becoming *b in OP, or ɣ > x in QR, while preexisting * ɣ > g beforehand)
[cross]

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-AH – [ɣoðim] – [erẽtĩpsa] – [toɣlãdir] – [ẽkeuditau] – [eɟelemi]
A-H is not a valid grouping. 
ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Nasal vowels – in ABCD they separate into VN or NV, in EFGH they just denasalize
[cross]

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-IR – [soisã] – [rãnidas] – [tõliorun] – [zeŋkeutiau] – [geliama]
I-R is not a valid grouping.

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 19:51 Proto-World – [sxosem] – [rantimsas] – [toŋliandur] – [jeŋkeutitau] – [geliame]
Word 1 - Three correct segments
Word 2 - Six correct segments
Word 3 - Five correct segments
Word 4 - Six correct segments
Word 5 - Four correct segments
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