Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

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Reyzadren
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Reyzadren »

Ser wrote: 03 Dec 2019 08:40Uh, and what natlang is it that you happen to speak? "Passive noun" and "possessive verb" don't sound like normal terms at all, especially because in your post you seemingly imply these terms stand for "passive derived from a noun" and "possessive derived from a verb" (as opposed to "passive verbal noun derived from a verb", etc.). I know nothing about Griuskant though, perhaps it'd make sense to me if I read about it.
Before I continue this post, I shall remind readers that I unfortunately conflate "structural terms" and "functional terms", the latter being more acceptable amongst linguists (but idc because it's much simpler for me to describe my conlang from its perspectives and principles).

When I say "passive noun" and/or "possessive verbs", these are structural terms as I would call them because they describe what one does with the morphemes/affixes, but these do not describe what they (linguistically) do. Certainly, there are "passive derived from a noun", "possessive derived from a verb" and "passive verbal noun derived from a verb" in my conlang as well, but these are not what I'm referring to with these 2 terms. Functionally, "passive nouns (str)" appear quite commonly in English and they are called something else, but there isn't a regular construction for it and there aren't strong links to other (cultural/mechanical) parts of the language, so there really isn't a reason to name it as such.

Again, there is nothing new/special/unique here, it's just random trivia that don't matter much in the grand scheme of terminologies.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Sequor »

Reyzadren wrote: 03 Dec 2019 22:24Before I continue this post, I shall remind readers that I unfortunately conflate "structural terms" and "functional terms", the latter being more acceptable amongst linguists (but idc because it's much simpler for me to describe my conlang from its perspectives and principles).

When I say "passive noun" and/or "possessive verbs", these are structural terms as I would call them because they describe what one does with the morphemes/affixes, but these do not describe what they (linguistically) do. Certainly, there are "passive derived from a noun", "possessive derived from a verb" and "passive verbal noun derived from a verb" in my conlang as well, but these are not what I'm referring to with these 2 terms. Functionally, "passive nouns (str)" appear quite commonly in English and they are called something else, but there isn't a regular construction for it and there aren't strong links to other (cultural/mechanical) parts of the language, so there really isn't a reason to name it as such.

Again, there is nothing new/special/unique here, it's just random trivia that don't matter much in the grand scheme of terminologies.
Alright, you can play the mystical guru if you want. :roll: I take it your use of the terminology Khemehekis and I asked you about is meaningless then.

(I have zero problems with you defining terms like "passive" and "noun" in an unusual way, but I do notice that you didn't answer my question about what your other native language is, and also that you haven't provided any examples of these constructions that you say are common in English and your other native language.)

(I mean, I used to indulge in this "give non-answers and play the guru" game myself, back when I was a teenager. Maybe you happen to be very young like that too? So far it seems reasonable to me to assume so.)
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Dormouse559 »

Khemehekis wrote: 02 Dec 2019 06:07I am thinking right now about Dormouse's Silvish. Even though it's a Romance language, Dormouse always comes up with so many fun tidbits about Silvish to put in the language and share with us (I never tire of reading the notes on it in the Snowball Game thread).
Aw, you're making me blush!

I'd agree on the vocabulary front. There's a lot of room to play with semantic space. But also, Kai, as someone who's spent several years developing a relatively vanilla romlang, I'd say to look for the features that tickle your sense of aesthetics. Even if they're not cross-linguistically that odd, just the fact that they fill you with joy or pride should be enough reason to share them. [:)]
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Iyionaku »

One small one about Yélian I just spotted in Lexember:

Normally, objects that appear in pairs, like hands, socks, eyes etc. have a dual number in Yélian.

vanit "hand" + vanit-em "hands [dual]" - vanitan "hands [plural]

However, the word condan "foot" does not have a designated dual form. Why? Because it's a very recent word (not more than 200 years old, derived from con "leg" + -dan "end") and the dual had already gone non-productive by then. Actually, there are two words for foot; the older one is æʻiy, and it's occasionally still used. This one has a dual form.

æʻiy (foot) - æʻiym (both feet) - æʻiyn (feet), but:
condan (foot) - condan (feet).

It's not much, but I still felt like sharing.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

A few facts about Proto-Common's reconstruction:

1. It has [*ʍ], but not [*w], because the lang's aspirated stops became Old Common's [ħ]
2. [*ʍ] became Old Common's [t͡ʃ~d͡ʒ], which were so weakly-labialized the notation was omitted
3. While [*j̊]'s approximant status is definite, [*J] was either fricative [ʝ] or approximant [j]
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by brblues »

Iyionaku wrote: 07 Dec 2019 11:17 One small one about Yélian I just spotted in Lexember:

Normally, objects that appear in pairs, like hands, socks, eyes etc. have a dual number in Yélian.

vanit "hand" + vanit-em "hands [dual]" - vanitan "hands [plural]

However, the word condan "foot" does not have a designated dual form. Why? Because it's a very recent word (not more than 200 years old, derived from con "leg" + -dan "end") and the dual had already gone non-productive by then. Actually, there are two words for foot; the older one is æʻiy, and it's occasionally still used. This one has a dual form.

æʻiy (foot) - æʻiym (both feet) - æʻiyn (feet), but:
condan (foot) - condan (feet).

It's not much, but I still felt like sharing.
It's little things like those, especially lexical ones, that give a conlang flavour, I like it!
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Khemehekis »

Dormouse559 wrote: 04 Dec 2019 08:30
Khemehekis wrote: 02 Dec 2019 06:07I am thinking right now about Dormouse's Silvish. Even though it's a Romance language, Dormouse always comes up with so many fun tidbits about Silvish to put in the language and share with us (I never tire of reading the notes on it in the Snowball Game thread).
Aw, you're making me blush!

I'd agree on the vocabulary front. There's a lot of room to play with semantic space. But also, Kai, as someone who's spent several years developing a relatively vanilla romlang, I'd say to look for the features that tickle your sense of aesthetics. Even if they're not cross-linguistically that odd, just the fact that they fill you with joy or pride should be enough reason to share them. [:)]
Well, it's an awesome approach to romlanging, and I was thinking you could put a lot of these tidbits on it into this thread.

BTW, it's been a while since anyone's added a sentence to the Snowball Game. You still got some Silvish sentences up your sleeve?

brblues: Agreed.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Khemehekis »

Ser wrote: 03 Dec 2019 22:57 Alright, you can play the mystical guru if you want. :roll: I take it your use of the terminology Khemehekis and I asked you about is meaningless then.

(I have zero problems with you defining terms like "passive" and "noun" in an unusual way, but I do notice that you didn't answer my question about what your other native language is, and also that you haven't provided any examples of these constructions that you say are common in English and your other native language.)

(I mean, I used to indulge in this "give non-answers and play the guru" game myself, back when I was a teenager. Maybe you happen to be very young like that too? So far it seems reasonable to me to assume so.)
I'd like to find out what Reyzadren's L1 is as well, but if the conversation in this thread is any indication, Reyzadren is deliberately being secretive about his ethnic background.

Perhaps by "passive nouns", he means words like "addressee"?
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Reyzadren »

Khemehekis wrote: 08 Dec 2019 04:21I'd like to find out what Reyzadren's L1 is as well, but if the conversation in this thread is any indication, Reyzadren is deliberately being secretive about his ethnic background.

Perhaps by "passive nouns", he means words like "addressee"?
You already know it: My L1 is English and another natlang that I speak because I'm bilingual (up to you to consider me having 2 L1s, 1 L1 or 0 L1). Also, my ethnicity is not a secret because I answered it in your thread: It's Other in canon places, and not Other in non-canon places.

Yes, "addressee" in English is indeed such a "passive noun (func)" but such term is ofc not used in English because it is an irregular natlang and it would be nonsensical to call it that there. My conlang uses its own rules consistently and I shall use its (translated) native terminology whenever possible as it highlights a certain paradigm and makes it easier for (irl and icly) learning.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Dormouse559 »

Khemehekis wrote: 08 Dec 2019 02:56Well, it's an awesome approach to romlanging, and I was thinking you could put a lot of these tidbits on it into this thread.
I shall give that some thought. [:)]

Khmehekis wrote:BTW, it's been a while since anyone's added a sentence to the Snowball Game. You still got some Silvish sentences up your sleeve?
Boop

Well, there weren't any up my sleeve, but I've whipped one up just now.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Dormouse559 »

As requested, here are some facts about Image Silvish:


1. Most of the cardinal direction words are not borrowed from English. They are nor "north", mijour "south", levan "east", coûhan "west". The only borrowing is nor; similar constructions exist in French, but they are much more limited. Intercardinal directions, like "northeast" (nordêsto), are borrowed though.

2. Palatalization caused historic /a/ and /e/ to rise to /(j)e/ and /i/, respectively. As a result, some suffixes have multiple forms depending on whether the root ends in a historically palatalized consonant. For example, -âlo/-êlo, from Latin -alis, appears in pedâlo [pəˈdɑː.lə] "pedal" and spechêlo [spəˈʃɛː.lə] "special". [ʃ] in the latter word was formerly palatalized, so it triggers the raised variant. This feature can trip French speakers up, because -âlo/-êlo looks like French -al/-el, but follows a different pattern.

3. When Silvish has two terms for an animal depending on its sex, the word for a male animal is masculine gender, and the word for a female animal is feminine gender. The one exception is the tiger; the word for a male tiger is tîgra, a feminine noun. A female tiger is called tigrèssa, also feminine gender.

4. Surnames can decline for the gender, number and case of the referent, when used on their own. Here's an example with the last name Bovu "Bouvier":

li Bovu M.SG = Mr. Bouvier
le Bovûrye F.SG = Ms. Bouvier (until late 20th century, "wife of Mr. Bouvier")
li bBovu M.PL = the Bouviers, the Bouvier family
le bBovûrye F.PL = the Bouvier women

5. I've talked many times about Silvish's noble and common genders, which are essentially superimposed on the typical Romance masculine and feminine. The noble gender applies to a subset of human nouns, and common gender is for all other nouns. A few interesting facts about them:
  • While a noun must refer to a human to be assigned noble gender, its form is also taken into account. Silvish borrowed a large number of agent nouns from French (i.e. sculteû < sculpteur, essplorateû < explorateur), but these looked like a set of pre-existing agent nouns for non-humans. So all these newly borrowed nouns were assigned common gender despite referring to humans.
  • Noble gender can be an indicator of intimacy. The word fîlye means "girl" in the common gender and "daughter" in the noble gender.
  • Common-gender nouns for humans often don't have separate masculine/feminine-gender forms, whereas noble-gender nouns almost always do. Take these common-gender nouns: infan "child" and eccrivâ "writer" are always masculine, while parsôn-a "person" and sintinèlla "sentinel" are always feminine.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Khemehekis »

Reyzadren wrote: 08 Dec 2019 08:04 You already know it: My L1 is English and another natlang that I speak because I'm bilingual (up to you to consider me having 2 L1s, 1 L1 or 0 L1). Also, my ethnicity is not a secret because I answered it in your thread: It's Other in canon places, and not Other in non-canon places.
Exactly what is that other natlang that you speak as an L1?
Yes, "addressee" in English is indeed such a "passive noun (func)" but such term is ofc not used in English because it is an irregular natlang and it would be nonsensical to call it that there. My conlang uses its own rules consistently and I shall use its (translated) native terminology whenever possible as it highlights a certain paradigm and makes it easier for (irl and icly) learning.
I see.

Kankonian has something weird like that; you can make prepositions passive and give them tense suffixes. To translate an end-of-sentence preposition with a passive voice, add the passive suffix and tense suffix onto the connective:

Ham amal ukal we polus ashizen.
this bed clear ADV jump on-PSV-PST
This bed has clearly been jumped on.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Khemehekis »

Dormouse559 wrote: 09 Dec 2019 07:45 As requested, here are some facts about Image Silvish:
Thanks!
3. When Silvish has two terms for an animal depending on its sex, the word for a male animal is masculine gender, and the word for a female animal is feminine gender. The one exception is the tiger; the word for a male tiger is tîgra, a feminine noun. A female tiger is called tigrèssa, also feminine gender.
Oh, cool!

Kankonian has an odd-word-out animal word like this: kamar, meaning elephant. It's the only multisyllabic word ending in -ar in which the accent goes on the last syllable.
4. Surnames can decline for the gender, number and case of the referent, when used on their own. Here's an example with the last name Bovu "Bouvier":

li Bovu M.SG = Mr. Bouvier
le Bovûrye F.SG = Ms. Bouvier (until late 20th century, "wife of Mr. Bouvier")
li bBovu M.PL = the Bouviers, the Bouvier family
le bBovûrye F.PL = the Bouvier women
Oh, I love that CamelCase on bBovu and bBovûrye. Is that unique among Romance languages?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Dormouse559 »

Khemehekis wrote: 17 Dec 2019 06:32Kankonian has an odd-word-out animal word like this: kamar, meaning elephant. It's the only multisyllabic word ending in -ar in which the accent goes on the last syllable.
Neat! Misfit words ftw!
Khemehekis wrote:Oh, I love that CamelCase on bBovu and bBovûrye. Is that unique among Romance languages?
Possibly. I think there might be some dialetti that show initial gemination in the orthography, but I specifically followed the example of Irish when deciding on Silvish's capitalization conventions for prefixed letters.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Reyzadren »

Khemehekis wrote: 17 Dec 2019 06:29Exactly what is that other natlang that you speak as an L1?

Kankonian has something weird like that; you can make prepositions passive and give them tense suffixes. To translate an end-of-sentence preposition with a passive voice, add the passive suffix and tense suffix onto the connective:

Ham amal ukal we polus ashizen.
this bed clear ADV jump on-PSV-PST
This bed has clearly been jumped on.
I don't talk about non-canon things. Here, I only brought it up as a counter response to both of you probably assuming that my L1 wasn't English.

Nice to know that you can do that in your conlang. Though, passive prepositions don't work like that in mine, as your sentence above would be functionally rendered as the circumstantial voice instead.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by spanick »

Weddisch is not the most interesting language in the world, but there are a few fun facts that I like.

1. Orthography
Weddisch has two main orthographies. The first is based primarily on Saterland Frisian and German and is used by the 20,000 Weddisch (Wätsch in that orthography/dialectal pronunciation) speakers that live in Northern Germany. The second orthography is more native with strong influence from West Frisian and Dutch and mostly used by the 45,000 or so Weddisch speakers in the Netherlands. The Weddisch Akademy/Wätsch Akademi, a group dedicated to the promotion of the Weddisch language, has officially adopted both orthographies, however it holds no real authority in either Germany or the Netherlands.

Even within those systems, there is plenty of variety of how to spell words (different dialects notwithstanding). For instance, the first person oblique pronoun has five possible spellings between the two systems: mi, mii, mij, mie, and my all pronounced /miː/. I prefer to used the latter system simply because it requires special characters less often than the former. I don't actively change my spelling but often time I do end up spelling words slightly differently depending on the situation. I think this is acceptable since these kinds of variations exist within the Weddisch speaking community itself!

2. Plurals
Weddisch has a number of ways to form plurals and often different regions or even villages will employ different methods for the same words. But the two methods which are kind of noteworthy are final obstruent voicing and plural combinations.

Final obstruent voicing occurs with words which end in voiceless fricatives and words which end in /t/ which was etymologically /θ/.
Ex: wyf /vɛɪf/ 'wife' > wyve /vɛɪv/ 'wives'
muut /muːt/ 'mouth' > mude /muːd/ 'mouths'

Note that the final -e is not pronounced although it is pronounced to form the plural of other words.
Ex: baat /baːt/ 'boat' > bate /baːtə/ 'boats'

In some dialects, this has been taken to an extreme and is used to mark the plural for almost all words ending in a voiceless obstruent.
Ex: buuk /buːk/ 'stomach/ > buge /buːg/ 'stomachs' (dialectal)

Plural combinations are also very common. These are formed when two common methods of pluralization are combined (cf. English 'children').
Ex: ku /kuː/ 'cow' > kuin /kœʏn/ 'cows' (made from a combination of umlaut and -(e)n.

Like the orthography, I don't actively try to vary my plural markers, but I also don't keep track of what goes with which noun, because I think it better reflects the diversity of the system actually used in the conculture.

3. Pronoun Adjacent Personal Endings
Weddisch has two sets of personal endings. One set, which is considered the default, is used in all situations except when directly adjacent to a subject pronoun. The other set is used only when the verb is directly adjacent to a subject pronoun. This is not unique to Weddisch. It simply inherited it from Late Northern Old English/Early Northern Middle English.

Regular Conjugation
S/P
1 --/-es
2 -(e)st /-es
3 -(e)s/-es

Pronoun-Adjacent
1 --/-e
2 -(e)st /-e
3 --/-e

The e in parentheses indicates an optional schwa.

Ex:
(1.1) Da auden mên êts det bead ann drinks det búer. “The old men eat the bread and drink the beer.”
---but---
(1.2) Hey ête det bread ann drinks det búer. “They eat the bread and drink the beer.”

(2.1) De knev slieps. “The boy sleeps.”
---but---
(2.2) Hie sliep. “He sleeps.”

Note how in example (1.1), both verbs take the plural ending –es but in (1.2) the verb immediately adjacent to the pronoun is marked is –e while the verb disconnected from the pronoun still takes the –es ending.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Khemehekis »

spanick wrote: 19 Dec 2019 17:40 3. Pronoun Adjacent Personal Endings
Weddisch has two sets of personal endings. One set, which is considered the default, is used in all situations except when directly adjacent to a subject pronoun. The other set is used only when the verb is directly adjacent to a subject pronoun. This is not unique to Weddisch. It simply inherited it from Late Northern Old English/Early Northern Middle English.

Regular Conjugation
S/P
1 --/-es
2 -(e)st /-es
3 -(e)s/-es

Pronoun-Adjacent
1 --/-e
2 -(e)st /-e
3 --/-e

The e in parentheses indicates an optional schwa.

Ex:
(1.1) Da auden mên êts det bead ann drinks det búer. “The old men eat the bread and drink the beer.”
---but---
(1.2) Hey ête det bread ann drinks det búer. “They eat the bread and drink the beer.”

(2.1) De knev slieps. “The boy sleeps.”
---but---
(2.2) Hie sliep. “He sleeps.”

Note how in example (1.1), both verbs take the plural ending –es but in (1.2) the verb immediately adjacent to the pronoun is marked is –e while the verb disconnected from the pronoun still takes the –es ending.
Whoa, this is crazy! So cool! Is there precedence for this in natlangs?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Aevas »

Khemehekis wrote: 08 Aug 2020 05:19Whoa, this is crazy! So cool! Is there precedence for this in natlangs?
spanick wrote: 19 Dec 2019 17:40This is not unique to Weddisch. It simply inherited it from Late Northern Old English/Early Northern Middle English.
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Khemehekis »

Aszev wrote: 08 Aug 2020 10:26
Khemehekis wrote: 08 Aug 2020 05:19Whoa, this is crazy! So cool! Is there precedence for this in natlangs?
spanick wrote: 19 Dec 2019 17:40This is not unique to Weddisch. It simply inherited it from Late Northern Old English/Early Northern Middle English.
So there's my answer! Don't know how I missed that part.

Does "Northern" mean it was spoken it what would be Geordie territory (Tyne & Wear) today?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: Miscellaneous fun facts about your conlang to share and know

Post by Salmoneus »

By "Northern Old English", presumably he means Northumbrian. This was spoken in the Kingdom of Northumbria - from Edinburgh in the north down to Hull in the south, to Liverpool and Chester in the west (though I'm not sure off hand whether Liverpool and Hull actually existed at this point). So yes, on Tyneside, but also a lot of other places, including Scotland. [although some areas of Northumbria, in Cumbria and Dumfries and Galloway, would still have spoken Cymric, and southeastern northumbria (Chester etc) were also at times in Mercia, so I'd imagine their dialect was intermediate between Mercian and Northumbrian].

Northern Middle English is the successor to Northumbrian, but Scots may by this point be counted separately, and Cheshire and southern Lancashire were definitely outside its territory by this point. [although since the Midlands dialects are basically a continuum between Northern and Southern, it's not really as clearcut as that...].
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