Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

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Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

It seems my Romlang ideas go so far that it's worth starting a thread.

Ideas:
Phonological:
s => ʃ
Rounded front-vowels
Word-initial stress

Morphological:
Slavic-style aspect system with preverbs
Some noun cases are preserved
Last edited by Omzinesý on 03 Dec 2019 14:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Phonology

This is an East-Romance lang so the vowel inventory I start from has six vowels:
i u
e o
ɛ
ä

Code: Select all

The vowel inventory the lang end up to 
i: i y: y u: u <í, i, ű ü ú u>
e: e ø: ø o: o <é ë ő ö ó o>
ɛ <e>
ä: ä <á a> 
Rounded front vowels develop from several sources.
Labialized velar before a back-vowel: qui => qü [ky] 'who', quattour => qöttór ['køtto:r] 'four'
Diphthong or vowel cluster: puella => pöll [pøll] 'girl', causa => qős [kø:ʃ] 'cause', civitas => ciutá => cűtá [sy:ta:] 'town'


I'm still not fully sure if vowel length appears though compensatory lengthening (loss of syllable-final /s/) or old stressed open syllables.
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Post by Zythros Jubi »

What non-Slavic languages have a Slavic-style aspect system? BTW, I'm considering making a Eastern Romance lang in west Carpathians, e.g. Moravian-Slovakian Vlach, what suggestions do you have? (I don't want to make another Slezan/Slevan)
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Re:

Post by Zekoslav »

Zythros Jubi wrote: 04 Dec 2019 04:08 What non-Slavic languages have a Slavic-style aspect system? BTW, I'm considering making a Eastern Romance lang in west Carpathians, e.g. Moravian-Slovakian Vlach, what suggestions do you have? (I don't want to make another Slezan/Slevan)
Apparently, Ossetian has a full-fledged Slavic-style aspect system (probably parallel development and not contact influence), and Hungarian has the rudiments of it (probably contact influence). Apparently it has a number of preverbs which, when added to the verb, make it perfective. I can easily imagine a Romance language grammaticalizing a prefix or two (I think ex is the most likely choice) into perfective markers, although a full-fledged Slavic-style aspect system is a different matter... (but that shouldn't dissuade you from this idea, Omnizesý!)
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Re: Re:

Post by Omzinesý »

Zekoslav wrote: 04 Dec 2019 09:38
Zythros Jubi wrote: 04 Dec 2019 04:08 What non-Slavic languages have a Slavic-style aspect system? BTW, I'm considering making a Eastern Romance lang in west Carpathians, e.g. Moravian-Slovakian Vlach, what suggestions do you have? (I don't want to make another Slezan/Slevan)
Apparently, Ossetian has a full-fledged Slavic-style aspect system (probably parallel development and not contact influence), and Hungarian has the rudiments of it (probably contact influence). Apparently it has a number of preverbs which, when added to the verb, make it perfective. I can easily imagine a Romance language grammaticalizing a prefix or two (I think ex is the most likely choice) into perfective markers, although a full-fledged Slavic-style aspect system is a different matter... (but that shouldn't dissuade you from this idea, Omnizesý!)
"Slavic-style" is rather a impressive expression than a well-defined comparative concept.
- Preverbs express, among derivational meanings, both directional meanings, when attached to a motion verb, and perfective aspect.
- Those perfectives are semantically less grammaticalized than Romance perfectives. They are rather resultatives while the Romance ones express e.g. defined time spans.

Georgian for example has a very similar system. There though preverbs have also several derivational meanings that neutralize in the non-perfective aspects, which is funny. Slavic languages derive imperfectives by suffixes from perfective verbs that are formed with derivational preverbs.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Nouns

I'd like to reserve Latin Nominative, Accusative, and Dative. Genitive is not so important because Dative can well take its functions.

There are two ideas for preserving Accusative.

1)
Closed syllables are reduced while open syllables are not. The benefit of this development is that it combines Latin -us nouns and consonant stems.
NOM servus -> servs -> serv
ACC servum -> servu

NOM rex -> rez
ACC regem -> reze

2) Nominative -s or Accusative -m cause compensatory lengthening.
The good side of this development is that Feminines behave similarly to Masculines.

NOM servus -> servu:
ACC servum -> servu
or
NOM servus -> servu
ACC servum -> servu:

Dative is easier because it has another vowel in the beginning.
DAT servo


Edit: One possibility would of course be German-style case system where most case markers only appear in articles. It must though be considered if they really are cases then, instead of some kinds of clitics.

Code: Select all

	M		F		N	PL
NOM	le <- ille	la <- illa	lú <- illud	í <- illī
ACC	lu <- illum	?		lú <- illud	los <- ilōs
DAT	li <- illī	li<- illī	li<- illī	lis <- illīs

Last edited by Omzinesý on 10 Dec 2019 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Attempt for verbs

Consonantal conjugation

Code: Select all

amre 'to love'  
Present 
sg1 	amu
sg2 	amsi 
sg3 	am
pl1 	ammus
pl2 	amtis 
pl3 	amun 
Past 
sg1 	ambu
sg2 	ambi
sg3 	amba
pl1 	ambós <- ambaus <- ambamus
pl2 	ambés <- ambais <- ambatis
pl3 	amban 
Vocalic conjugation

Code: Select all

capri 'to understand' 
Present 
sg1	capíc <- capisco  
sg2	capisi <- capiscisi 
sg3	capíz <- capisce 
pl1	capimus
pl2	capitis
pl3	capin 
Past 
sg1	capiu 
sg2	capibi 
sg3	capib 
pl1	capimmus <- capibmus <- capibamus
pl2 	capittis <- capibtis <- capibatis 
pl3	capiban 
Last edited by Omzinesý on 10 Dec 2019 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by spanick »

I think the Slavic style aspect system is a good idea. I did something similar with Sortsbergish, a Germanic language which had a lot of contact with Slavic. It came to generalize the prefix ga- as the perfective marker. Much simpler than Slavic itself but influenced.

I look forward to seeing your work!
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Omzinesý wrote: 04 Dec 2019 16:49 Nouns

I'd like to reserve Latin Nominative, Accusative, and Dative. Genitive is not so important because Dative can well take its functions.

There are two ideas for preserving Accusative.

1)
Closed syllables are reduced while open syllables are not. The benefit of this development is that it combines Latin -us nouns and consonant stems.
NOM servus -> servs -> serv
ACC servum -> servu

NOM rex -> rez
ACC regem -> reze

2) Nominative -s or Accusative -m cause compensatory lengthening.
The good side of this development is that Feminines behave similarly to Masculines.

NOM servus -> servu:
ACC servum -> servu
or
NOM servus -> servu
ACC servum -> servu:

Dative is easier because it has another vowel in the beginning.
DAT servo


Edit: One possibility would of course be German-style case system where most case markers only appear in articles. It must though be considered if they really are cases then, instead of some kinds of clitics.

Code: Select all

	M		F		N	PL
NOM	le <- ille	la <- illa	lú <- illud	í <- illī
ACC	lu <- illum	?		lú <- illud	los <- ilōs
DAT	li <- illī	li<- illī	li<- illī	lis <- illīs


I think the most naturalistic way to preserve the Latin nominative, accusative, and dative is with analogy of the third declension.

3rd declension
NOM rex -> rez
ACC regem -> rege
DAT regī -> regi

2nd declension
NOM servus -> serv (by analogy of the 3rd declension)
ACC servum -> servu
DAT servo -> servo

1st declension
NOM casa -> cas (by analogy of the 3rd declension)
ACC casam -> casa
DAT casae -> case

But I preserving so much of Latin morphology is not very naturalistic. Maybe I'll go with something similar to Romanian and only preserve a direct case and a dative in the noun itself. The article will also have an accusative.
Last edited by Omzinesý on 10 Dec 2019 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Latest development of word-final vowels:

1) All words get a final vowel, which also happens in "Italian" and Romanian. The exact values of the epenthetic vowels differ, but they are mostly later elided anyway in 2) and 3).
∅ → V /_#
Lat amas → ámasi → ámsi 'you love'
Lat casis → cásese → cásse 'house DAT.PL.'

2) Word-final /u/ is elided.
u → ∅ /_#
Lat portus/portum → Eats-Romance portu → port 'harbor NOM/ACC'

3) Word-final /a/ is elided. That, however, happens before the vowel of a preceding open syllable has lengthened, which does not have time to happen before /u/ in 2).
a → ∅ /_#
Lat casa → cása → cás

4) Word-final mid-high vowels rise to corresponding high vowels. The mid-low /ɛ/ is not affected.
e → i /_#, o → u /_#
Lat casae → case → cási 'house NOM/ACC.PL, DAT.SG'
Lat portō → portu 'harbor DAT.SG'


The sound changes above create the following three declensions.

1st declension cás 'house'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	cás	cási
ACC	cás	cásse
DAT	cási	cásse
2nd declension port 'harbor'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	port	porti
ACC	port	portse
DAT	portu	portse
3rd declension lez 'law'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	lez	lezi
ACC	leze	lezse
DAT	lezi	lezse
All the tree declensions are very alike. Their nominatives are the same. many words have shifted their declension between East-Romance and this language. On the other hand the gender of the noun does not affect the declension very much. There are tokens of all genders in all declensions.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Zythros Jubi »

How to pronounce the consonants c and ts? Could you please introduce your orthography?
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Zythros Jubi wrote: 11 Dec 2019 08:15 How to pronounce the consonants c and ts? Could you please introduce your orthography?
<c> is pronounced like in French: s] before front vowels and [k] in other positions.
<ts> is just two consonants, in practice I don't think it differs much from [t͡ʃ]

Something like this:
p t c k <p t ty c/q>
b d ɟ g <b d dy g>
m n ɲ <m n ń>
(t͡s) t͡ʃ <(tc/tç) cs
s ʃ <c/ç s>
z (ʒ) <z (zs/j)>
l r <l r>
v j <v j>
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Ælfwine »

Omzinesý wrote: 10 Dec 2019 15:15 Latest development of word-final vowels:

1) All words get a final vowel, which also happens in "Italian" and Romanian. The exact values of the epenthetic vowels differ, but they are mostly later elided anyway in 2) and 3).
∅ → V /_#
Lat amas → ámasi → ámsi 'you love'
Lat casis → cásese → cásse 'house DAT.PL.'

2) Word-final /u/ is elided.
u → ∅ /_#
Lat portus/portum → Eats-Romance portu → port 'harbor NOM/ACC'

3) Word-final /a/ is elided. That, however, happens before the vowel of a preceding open syllable has lengthened, which does not have time to happen before /u/ in 2).
a → ∅ /_#
Lat casa → cása → cás

4) Word-final mid-high vowels rise to corresponding high vowels. The mid-low /ɛ/ is not affected.
e → i /_#, o → u /_#
Lat casae → case → cási 'house NOM/ACC.PL, DAT.SG'
Lat portō → portu 'harbor DAT.SG'


The sound changes above create the following three declensions.

1st declension cás 'house'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	cás	cási
ACC	cás	cásse
DAT	cási	cásse
2nd declension port 'harbor'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	port	porti
ACC	port	portse
DAT	portu	portse
3rd declension lez 'law'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	lez	lezi
ACC	leze	lezse
DAT	lezi	lezse
All the tree declensions are very alike. Their nominatives are the same. many words have shifted their declension between East-Romance and this language. On the other hand the gender of the noun does not affect the declension very much. There are tokens of all genders in all declensions.
Much of this is very similar to the draft I made of Pelsodian, my romlang in the same area.

What I have done is syncope the two high vowels /i/ and /u/ word finally, with the former leaving a trace of palatalization (a la Romanian). Next the mid vowels /e/ and /o/ likewise raise to /i/ and /u/ and historical /a/ becomes /e/ word finally (again like Friulian.) Unsurprisingly, this is the same exact sound change that occurred in Hungarian and the Common Slavonic language (with the yers), as well as neighboring Friulian.

Word initial stress was gained the same way I gained it in my slavic conlang spoken in the same area: essentially pretonic vowels are deleted and stress is shifted forward from that. I believe some dialects in central/north Italy also syncope words this way, although I don't believe any have changed stress patterns because of it (more research into this phenomena would help.)
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Ælfwine wrote: 20 Dec 2019 21:57
Omzinesý wrote: 10 Dec 2019 15:15 Latest development of word-final vowels:

1) All words get a final vowel, which also happens in "Italian" and Romanian. The exact values of the epenthetic vowels differ, but they are mostly later elided anyway in 2) and 3).
∅ → V /_#
Lat amas → ámasi → ámsi 'you love'
Lat casis → cásese → cásse 'house DAT.PL.'

2) Word-final /u/ is elided.
u → ∅ /_#
Lat portus/portum → Eats-Romance portu → port 'harbor NOM/ACC'

3) Word-final /a/ is elided. That, however, happens before the vowel of a preceding open syllable has lengthened, which does not have time to happen before /u/ in 2).
a → ∅ /_#
Lat casa → cása → cás

4) Word-final mid-high vowels rise to corresponding high vowels. The mid-low /ɛ/ is not affected.
e → i /_#, o → u /_#
Lat casae → case → cási 'house NOM/ACC.PL, DAT.SG'
Lat portō → portu 'harbor DAT.SG'


The sound changes above create the following three declensions.

1st declension cás 'house'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	cás	cási
ACC	cás	cásse
DAT	cási	cásse
2nd declension port 'harbor'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	port	porti
ACC	port	portse
DAT	portu	portse
3rd declension lez 'law'

Code: Select all

	SG	PL
NOM	lez	lezi
ACC	leze	lezse
DAT	lezi	lezse
All the tree declensions are very alike. Their nominatives are the same. many words have shifted their declension between East-Romance and this language. On the other hand the gender of the noun does not affect the declension very much. There are tokens of all genders in all declensions.
Much of this is very similar to the draft I made of Pelsodian, my romlang in the same area.

What I have done is syncope the two high vowels /i/ and /u/ word finally, with the former leaving a trace of palatalization (a la Romanian). Next the mid vowels /e/ and /o/ likewise raise to /i/ and /u/ and historical /a/ becomes /e/ word finally (again like Friulian.) Unsurprisingly, this is the same exact sound change that occurred in Hungarian and the Common Slavonic language (with the yers), as well as neighboring Friulian.

Word initial stress was gained the same way I gained it in my slavic conlang spoken in the same area: essentially pretonic vowels are deleted and stress is shifted forward from that. I believe some dialects in central/north Italy also syncope words this way, although I don't believe any have changed stress patterns because of it (more research into this phenomena would help.)
Interesting! Did you publish your langs?
I don't actually know much on sound changes on the area.
Romance languages (except French that loses all word-final vowels) seem to preserve word-final /a/ very well, in a form or another. I wanted to get rid of the sg3 theme vowel and feminine marker. I think it was the most "unRomance" sound change. Maybe it can be justified by Hungarian too.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Zythros Jubi »

Well, the Carpathian Basin/Pannonian Basin/Greater Hungary has become a hotspot for conlanging. Are there anyone from this region on cbb or zbb?
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Aspects

The system where preverbs code the perfective aspect seems to rise easier in participles.

In Slavic languages, a active (subject-oriented) participle developed to the past tense. Apparently, the preverbs appear in the same process. Bulgarian still preserves old Aorist and still has preverbs, but it's probable that even there preverbs first appeared with l-past. Hungarian too has its past form from a perfect participle. Hungarian does not differentiate reorientation/voice of participles, but as a finite verb form, it is active. In Georgian, the preverbs though appear with the old finite verb form.


Morphology

Of course, I could form a new past from from t-Participle but I think it would be too Hungarian.

In the verb paradigms I have made above, the past is formed with Romance Imperfect instead of some new past form with its source in infinite verb forms. I think that is not the most probable way but possible under contract influence from languages with preverbs.

The most frequent preverb is es- /ɛʃ/ <- ɛt͡ʃ <- eks <ex>

Imperfective:
manzu 'I am eating./ I eat.'
manzbu 'I was eating./I used to eat.'
volu manzre 'I will be eating.'

Perfective:
esmanzu 'I will eat.'
esmanzbu 'I ate.'


Semantics
Aspect in Slavic is more derivational and less inflectional than that of Romance. In Romance, bare temporal limits of an action facilitate use of Perfect while in Slavic Imperfective would be used.*

I think this lang (I should start thinking about its name) will be like Slavic in this respect. Perfective thus usually codes some results of the action. When the verb is static, Perfective codes inchoative, though.

dormre 'to sleep'
addormre 'to fall in sleep'


* It would of course be possible to make Bulgarian-style system where Romance-style perfective is expressed with Perfect without preverbs while resultative is expressed with preverbs.
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

One question is how to derive Imperfective of the verbs fromed with a prefix.

Usre 'to use'
Esusre 'to use all'

Abusre 'to abuse'
?? 'to abuse PERFVE'

One idea is that Perfective preverbs don't have stress

[ɛ'ʃuʃre] esusre
but
['abuʃre] abusre

Then Perfective of "abusre" could be [a'buʃre].
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Re: Development thread: A Romlang in Hungary

Post by Omzinesý »

Last night I stayed awake, thinking about changes in this lang.

SG1 form is formed by lengthening the last vowel of sg3.
diz 'says'
díz 'I say'

Past tense could be formed like in many Slavic languages, perifrastically in 1st and 2nd persons, but only the participle in 3rd persons.
áv dity [a:v dic] 'I (have) said'
dity '(has) said'

Articles are el and un in all genders.



I got inspired by what Aelfwine said above.

Changes in word-final vowels Vulgar-Latin -> This Unnames Lang
High vowels are elided, but /i/ leaves traces in many words.
Mid-high and mid-low vowels rise to high ones.
/a/ is elided, but later than the other vowels so that it has time to lengthen the vowel of the preceding syllable if it is open and stressed in Vulgar-Latin.

1st declension
cás 'house, home', PL.GEN-DAT is taken from 2nd declension

Code: Select all

	SINGULAR	PLURAL
NOM-ACC	cás [ka:ʃ] cási [ka:.ʃi]	
GEN-DAT	cási [ka:.ʃi] cásii [ka:.ʃi.i]	

2nd declension plural nominative, the traces of Latin /i/, is generalized for most words.
Plural genitive-dative is generalized from singular.

port 'harbor'

Code: Select all

	SINGULAR	PLURAL
NOM-ACC	port [pɔrt] 	portz [pɔrt͡s]
GEN-DAT	portu [pɔr.tu] 	portzu [pɔr.t͡su]
Many words combine forms of 1st and 2nd declension
iskól 'school'

Code: Select all

	SINGULAR		PLURAL
NOM-ACC	iskól	['iʃ.koːl]	iskóly ['iʃ.koːʎ]
GEN-DAT	iskóli ['iʃ.koː.li]	iskólyi ['iʃ.koːʎi]
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