Yay or Nay?

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elemtilas
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas »

Dormouse559 wrote: 07 Jul 2019 19:46
elemtilas wrote: 07 Jul 2019 18:14So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick »

elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 01:08
Dormouse559 wrote: 07 Jul 2019 19:46
elemtilas wrote: 07 Jul 2019 18:14So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
I’d go with Denê since I think it’s the most likely to get an English speaker to give you the best approximate pronunciation. With the circumflex over the e, I don’t think you’ll get a lot of people saying /din/.

With Daine, I personally have a tendency to pronounce things as much as like the IPA as possible in the context of conlangs.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore »

I would say, don’t worry about it, since the chances are low that you’ll have to listen to someone else read it out loud.

When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 »

elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 01:08
Dormouse559 wrote: 07 Jul 2019 19:46
elemtilas wrote: 07 Jul 2019 18:14So, yea or nay: aesthetics in mind foremost, leave the the name as is (Daine), assuming that most readers will say /den/, or adopt the more linguistically correct name (Denê), assuming that many readers will say /dene/ or at worst /din/?
What is the proper pronunciation?
/'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
Hmm, personally, I've always pronounced "Daine" as /dai.ne/. "Denê" certainly seems to be the more transparent form, as far as pronunciation is concerned. But why not use both, as appropriate? English already handles things like Latin plurals.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas »

eldin raigmore wrote: 08 Jul 2019 03:14 I would say, don’t worry about it, since the chances are low that you’ll have to listen to someone else read it out loud.

When it’s made into a screenplay, TV script, movie script, radio play, legit theatre production, or Broadway musical; then go ahead and worry about it.
Of course, I know you're right about I'll not likely ever have to hear it read aloud. But, it's an old issue for me all the same (and those few who have long known about them do in fact use the spelling pronunciation /den/).

And no worries about any of this ever being made into a screenplay or anything of the sort.

However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Last edited by elemtilas on 08 Jul 2019 04:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas »

Dormouse559 wrote: 08 Jul 2019 03:26
elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 01:08 /'tɑnɑ/ and /dɛ'neː/ respectively.
Hmm, personally, I've always pronounced "Daine" as /dai.ne/. "Denê" certainly seems to be the more transparent form, as far as pronunciation is concerned. But why not use both, as appropriate? English already handles things like Latin plurals.
Oh, well! Not too far off, then!

Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?

spanick wrote:I’d go with Denê since I think it’s the most likely to get an English speaker to give you the best approximate pronunciation. With the circumflex over the e, I don’t think you’ll get a lot of people saying /din/.

With Daine, I personally have a tendency to pronounce things as much as like the IPA as possible in the context of conlangs.
Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. [O.o] Even though I know it's supposed to be there!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 »

elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:27Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?
I suppose I got the impression that "Daine" was a singular. It is pronounced like how I'd expect "Tana" to be. But reading over your post again, I see that isn't what you said.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas »

Dormouse559 wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:53
elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:27Use both as appropriate . . . could you give an example?
I suppose I got the impression that "Daine" was a singular. It is pronounced like how I'd expect "Tana" to be. But reading over your post again, I see that isn't what you said.
Oh, I see!

There have been instances where I've used Tana to describe an individual. And (incongruously) Daine for the race / species name.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by spanick »

elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:27
Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. [O.o] Even though I know it's supposed to be there!
Lol well that muddies the waters a bit. If you don’t pronounce the final e and are comfortable with other not doing so either, then Daine works, because I think a lot of English speakers will pronounce it /deɪn/, which is kinda close...-ish.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas »

spanick wrote: 08 Jul 2019 05:58
elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:27
Denê, pace Dormouse, I think would at the very least get most English speakers to pronounce the -e. I have to admit that I don't actually pronounce the -e. [O.o] Even though I know it's supposed to be there!
Lol well that muddies the waters a bit. If you don’t pronounce the final e and are comfortable with other not doing so either, then Daine works, because I think a lot of English speakers will pronounce it /deɪn/, which is kinda close...-ish.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore »

elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:20 .... However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Then I say “Good for you!”. Where is your pronunciation guide available online for your fans or alpha-testers or beta-testers to refer to?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas »

eldin raigmore wrote: 09 Jul 2019 00:22
elemtilas wrote: 08 Jul 2019 04:20 .... However, one of my test readers did in fact ask. He also complained (very sweetly, mind) that I did not, in point of fact, provide any kind of pronunciation guide. So naturally, I combed through for all the non-English words and names and made a proper guide.
Then I say “Good for you!”. Where is your pronunciation guide available online for your fans or alpha-testers or beta-testers to refer to?
Oh! I sent him a copy of the pronunciation guide and appended it to the end of the text. I'll copy it here, since you're interested:
Pronounciation Guide

All words are given their pronunciations using the International Phonetic Alphabet.

Adani /a.dɑ.ni/
Andavaste /a.ndɑ.va.stɛ/
Arranderran /a.rɑ.nde.rɑn/
Bolgar /bol.gæɹ/
Camay /kɑ.mɑi/
Daine /de.ne/ (in Engl., usually /deːn/)
Elckô /ɛl.koː/
gorhyun /goɹ.jun/
Harval /hɑɹ.vɒl/
Lindetirio /lɪnd.ɛ.ti.ri.o/
Kaproyes /kɐ.pɹo.jɛz/
Narutanea /na.ru.tɑ.nɛ.ja/
Queranarran /kwɛ.rɑ.nɑ.rɑn/
Rûrofal /ruː.ro.fɑl/
Tanari /tɑ.nɑ.ri/
Tawaste /tɑ.wɑ.ste/
Varrelen /va.rɛ.lɛn/
Weyagni /vwei.ɐ.gni/
Wolquoyes /wol.kwoj.es/
Yaviê /jɑ.vi.eː/
Yeola /jo.lɑ/
yndori /ɨ.ndo.ri/
Zenorgaia /zɛn.oɹ.ga.ja/
Zenosia /zɛ.nos.i.ɛ/
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

What about n > ɴ _{q, χ}, and then ɴ > ɦ?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

qk > qʞ > ʛ?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gokupwned5 »

ɶʙ ɞʛ wrote: 03 Aug 2019 05:08 What about n > ɴ _{q, χ}, and then ɴ > ɦ?
Yeah. If you want to elaborate on it more, you could have any vowels adjacent to /ɴ/ become nasalized, and then the nasalization just goes away later on. For example:

/danqa/ > /daɴqa/ > /dãɦqa/ > /daɦqa/
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Initial vowel system:

/i i: ɨ ɨ: u/
/e e: ə ɵ o o:~u:/
/æ a: ɑ/

Harmony:

/i i e e æ ɵ/ vs /ɨ e ə æ ɑ o/

Is it possible that:

ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine »

Is it possible that:

ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
I'll answer this. Most of these changes seem "reasonable" to me, as vowels can literally do almost anything (compared to consonants at least.) Generally though, vowels are motivated by chain shifts: movement in one area of the vowel space can cause movement of others. Nonetheless, none of this looks unreasonable, except perhaps the lower vowel space would seem crowded with /æː/, /aː/ and /ɒː/ with what you already have (but again, vowels do not need to be perfectly aligned.)



Should I delete word final schwa in my Crimean Gothic conlang?

A bit of background: the Crimean Gothic language (not the conlang) had likely reduce most of Biblical Gothic's unstressed vowels to schwa (to the point were the former can be derived from the latter) by the 16th century. Currently, I keep schwa and write it as <ъ>. An exception to this is the combination /jə/, which is written with the "small yer" <ь>.

Now, I want to innovate an allophonic soft-hard contrast, sort of like in Russian, mostly under influence from Russian through its loanwords. This would be a fairly recent change in the language, perhaps only two centuries ago, around the same time I plan to delete schwa. Besides loanwords, I could also palatalize consonants preceding schwa if there is a /j/ phoneme between them: an example of this kind of word is the name for the peninsula itself, кримь (currently: [ˈkʰrimjə]) to [ˈkʰriːmʲ] with deletion of the schwa and glide, and palatalization of the previous consonant. Someone in discord remarked that this is fairly similar to the state of affairs in Romanian, which I like because Romania is a close neighbor of Crimea and the Ukraine.

I am somewhat worried though this would ruin some of my grammar, as currently the strong feminine and neuter stems are distinguished in number and partially case by a final schwa (there written <е> as I haven't updated it to reflect the change to yer), though I suspect voicing might still be a distinguishing feature, at least among plosives.

So what do we think? Kill the schwa?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Pabappa »

Ælfwine wrote: 18 Sep 2019 02:42
Is it possible that:

ɵ > o next to velars or labials (uvulars, retroflexes will have already forced /ɵ/ to back to /o/)
ɵ > ø > e otherwise.
a: > æ:
ɑ > ɒ
a a: ɒ: appear from later sound changes.
I'll answer this. Most of these changes seem "reasonable" to me, as vowels can literally do almost anything (compared to consonants at least.) Generally though, vowels are motivated by chain shifts: movement in one area of the vowel space can cause movement of others. Nonetheless, none of this looks unreasonable, except perhaps the lower vowel space would seem crowded with /æː/, /aː/ and /ɒː/ with what you already have (but again, vowels do not need to be perfectly aligned.)



Should I delete word final schwa in my Crimean Gothic conlang?

A bit of background: the Crimean Gothic language (not the conlang) had likely reduce most of Biblical Gothic's unstressed vowels to schwa (to the point were the former can be derived from the latter) by the 16th century. Currently, I keep schwa and write it as <ъ>. An exception to this is the combination /jə/, which is written with the "small yer" <ь>.

Now, I want to innovate an allophonic soft-hard contrast, sort of like in Russian, mostly under influence from Russian through its loanwords. This would be a fairly recent change in the language, perhaps only two centuries ago, around the same time I plan to delete schwa. Besides loanwords, I could also palatalize consonants preceding schwa if there is a /j/ phoneme between them: an example of this kind of word is the name for the peninsula itself, кримь (currently: [ˈkʰrimjə]) to [ˈkʰriːmʲ] with deletion of the schwa and glide, and palatalization of the previous consonant. Someone in discord remarked that this is fairly similar to the state of affairs in Romanian, which I like because Romania is a close neighbor of Crimea and the Ukraine.

I am somewhat worried though this would ruin some of my grammar, as currently the strong feminine and neuter stems are distinguished in number and partially case by a final schwa (there written <е> as I haven't updated it to reflect the change to yer), though I suspect voicing might still be a distinguishing feature, at least among plosives.

So what do we think? Kill the schwa?

i have two questions:
1) does the schwa occur only word-finally? If it occurs elsewhere, would you also delete it there?
2) Does this language allophonically palatalize all vowels before /i/? Ive heard it said that that's how Romanian got the way it did, but it may not be necessary to do this if your language already has preexisting /jə/ sequences.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine »

Pabappa wrote: 18 Sep 2019 04:55 i have two questions:
1) does the schwa occur only word-finally? If it occurs elsewhere, would you also delete it there?
2) Does this language allophonically palatalize all vowels before /i/? Ive heard it said that that's how Romanian got the way it did, but it may not be necessary to do this if your language already has preexisting /jə/ sequences.
1.) Schwa can occur elsewhere, yes.
2.) I've thought of doing this, though its worth mentioning /i/ is rare in an unstressed or final syllable. Furthermore, both /jə/ and /i/ would not carry any grammatical significance, unlike Romanian, but Russian and Ukrainian loanwords would make it more common. It seems to be an areal feature, as Crimean Tatar seems to be picking up palatalization as well.
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An unnamed Semitic language spoken in the Caucus.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Is this plausible?

qk > qʞ > ʛ > ʕ or something like that?
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