Yay or Nay?

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Creyeditor
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor »

It's hard to say anything about the plausibility of anything involving uvular implosives and the velar click because they are so rare. If you just want to go from *qk to /ʕ/ I would suggest lenition.

1. Assimilation in stop clusters creates geminates
qk > qː
2. Geminates plosives become fricatives in certain situations (first lenition)
qː > χː
3. Uvulars become pharyengal
χː > ħː
4. Fricatives lenite to glides
ħː > ʕː
5. Degemination of glides
ʕː > ʕ

The three last changes could occur in any order.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

I was thinking of a way to have /qk/ > /ʕ/ while not leniting a plain /q/. Also, qk > q' > ʛ > ʕ seems more realistic than qʞ. Didn't ʛ just randomly show up in two isolated Mayan languages, from q'?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor »

Right, that's what I meant, two languages randomly having it means there is some precedent, but that's it. I don't really see how the uvular implosive could become a pharyngeal approximat in one step.

How about this? Uvular stops can alternate with pharyngealized velars and maybe this only happens to the geminate for some reason? This pharyngealized stop could then become an approximant.
qk > qː > kʕ > ʕ
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

That could work. However, ɓ ɗ > w l is attested, so I think the same thing could happen to ʛ, but again, this isn't really worth anything.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor »

I guess there were intermediate steps for these changes. Also /ʛ/ would become /ʁ/ analogically, right?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ɶʙ ɞʛ »

Yes, and a shift from /ʁ/ to /ʕ/ is not much of a change, it is attested in many cases as well.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor »

I agree. Just out of interest, are there cases where implosives lenited but other voiced stops did not?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Khemehekis »

An LCV yay-or-nay question rather than a conlang yay-or-nay, but oh well . . .

Should I add the noun "spell", as in a magical spell, to the Landau Core Vocabulary? I imagine it would go under the Life, Philosophy, Religion category.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore »

Khemehekis wrote: 19 Jan 2020 06:28 An LCV yay-or-nay question rather than a conlang yay-or-nay, but oh well . . .

Should I add the noun "spell", as in a magical spell, to the Landau Core Vocabulary? I imagine it would go under the Life, Philosophy, Religion category.
Yay!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by jimydog000 »

Whistled sibilants. Yay or nay?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist »

jimydog000 wrote: 03 Feb 2020 07:01 Whistled sibilants. Yay or nay?
Always yay!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore »

jimydog000 wrote: 03 Feb 2020 07:01 Whistled sibilants. Yay or nay?
gestaltist wrote: 03 Feb 2020 10:35 Always yay!
I also say “yea”.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Parlox »

So in Gondolan I romanise /ʀ/ as (rh), but this can lead to some confusion because /ɹ̠h/ (rh) clusters are permitted. My question is.. What should I romanise /ʀ/ as?

Also (x) is already used to romanise /ʁ/.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by jimydog000 »

Parlox wrote: 15 Jun 2020 21:49 So in Gondolan I romanise /ʀ/ as (rh), but this can lead to some confusion because /ɹ̠h/ (rh) clusters are permitted. My question is.. What should I romanise /ʀ/ as?

Also (x) is already used to romanise /ʁ/.
Mayhaps one of these:
<rr ŕ ǵ q xr xh ẋ ᶍ>

Or maybe the confusion would be very small?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Parlox »

jimydog000 wrote: 15 Jun 2020 23:07 Mayhaps one of these:
<rr ŕ ǵ q xr xh ẋ ᶍ>

Or maybe the confusion would be very small?
Well the romanisation system is meant to be pretty transparent, and /rh/ is a common cluster, so I need a way to distinguish them.

I was going to use Greek chi for /R/ but it displays as (x) on this board, so that's a no-go.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor »

Parlox wrote: 15 Jun 2020 21:49 So in Gondolan I romanise /ʀ/ as (rh), but this can lead to some confusion because /ɹ̠h/ (rh) clusters are permitted. My question is.. What should I romanise /ʀ/ as?

Also (x) is already used to romanise /ʁ/.
Embrace the confusion [:)]
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Parlox »

Creyeditor wrote: 16 Jun 2020 23:55
Parlox wrote: 15 Jun 2020 21:49 So in Gondolan I romanise /ʀ/ as (rh), but this can lead to some confusion because /ɹ̠h/ (rh) clusters are permitted. My question is.. What should I romanise /ʀ/ as?

Also (x) is already used to romanise /ʁ/.
Embrace the confusion [:)]
Well I'm reluctant to do that because the romanisation is just that, a romanisation. It' essentially just so I can write the language with the latin alphabet, because it already has it's own script.

I ended up going with ç for /ʀ/.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Parlox »

Another question: Gondolan already has three rhotics, /ɹ̠~ɻ ʁ~ɻ˔ ʀ/. But I've had a desire to add a fricative /ɹ̝/. Should I add this fourth rhotic? Or should I just make it a strange sort of dialectal variant.

Also, I know having even two rhotics is extraordinarily rare. In Gondolans daughter languages most of them collapse anyways, so /ɹ̝/ doesn't necessarily need to be a stable feature.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor »

I would prefer a dialectal variant. Rhotics go crazy in natlang dialects. Also, maybe have it be a positional allophone in some dialect?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Parlox »

Creyeditor wrote: 17 Jun 2020 17:23 I would prefer a dialectal variant. Rhotics go crazy in natlang dialects. Also, maybe have it be a positional allophone in some dialect?
Yeah this is what I'll go with. I'll probably make it an allophone of ɹ̠~ɻ intervocally, probably in a far-eastern dialect.
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