Star Trek Ferengi Languages by 1995 Timothy Miller, David Salo, and 1995-2017 TV Show Writers and Kim Douglas

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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Bob »

jimydog000 wrote: 05 Aug 2020 14:21 ...
Also, there's only so much room in the title of the thread so I just try to identify Okrand Atlantean by saying it's by the creator of Klingon. And it seems at least some conlangers have heard of Klingon. But I'll try to add that to the opening of the thread.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Man in Space »

Bob, I have to say, jimmydog000 is correct. On fora such as this one, there are certain conventions that are, while not strictly speaking required, then at least strongly recommended and encouraged. You may not be on the Internet all the time, but when you’re in Rome, it’s good to do as Romans do. Your reception might be more favorable if you took the time to format your posts more like the others on here.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by sangi39 »

Ooookay, so:
Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18
jimydog000 wrote: 05 Aug 2020 14:21 Wow, it looks completely different to what you hear in Little Green Men and the Enterprise episode I'm watching now. I just assumed the showrunners made it up.

And Bob, can I criticise the way you start these threads? I would rather know what I'm looking at and some general information about the language, rather than Facebook group links. For instance in your Atlantean thread you fail to mention it's from a Disney movie, I'd seen it as a kid and later as a teenager, but I did not recognise the title of the film until I looked it up.
Oh, thank-you on both counts. Yeah, I'm trying but I already had the Atlantean thread set up on the new Zompist Bboard and they kicked me out for totally inane reasons. Which they've done to me once or twice before in the past, at about 5 year intervals, probably because Zompist doesn't like or get younger people and lacks a linguistics degree and resents that I have a BA Linguistics. I also specialize in conlangs from books, movies, and tv, which he and most of the other members seem to hate because they make their own conlangs. And it's for sure some international and regional cultural mismatch. Most of the members are clearly from the USA or UK, CIS White Middle-Aged Men. This sort of thing is hard to explain. You know, on the major polyglot facebook groups, we got all kinds of people from all over the world, so I'm not used to what is apparently a bunch of USA and UK men who don't have much idea about how things go in the rest of the world or outside of their seemingly oft-frequented conlanging website.
First, whatever issues you had with the ZBB, leave them over there (as was requested here). I'm not even sure how users over there even relates to jimydog000's post, so why you thought the need to bring it up, I don't know.

The same goes for your thoughts on Zompist's motivations. 1) That's a ZBB issue, and 2) we do have a rule against putting words in other people's mouths (or thoughts in people's heads) and then presenting them as if they were fact.

And, thirdly, I'd like to suggest that you don't then apply that same process to an entire group, which, by the way, you are somewhat misrepresenting. While, of course, not all members will post personal information about themselves (and nor are the required to on the ZBB), but in the last "census", as long as Tropylium counted right, about 50% of users identified as non-straight (variously as homosexual, bisexual, asexual, etc.), and a relatively large number come from outside of the US and the UK (mostly Western Europe but with a few users in Asia).

As for "most of the other members seem to hate [conlangs from books, movies, and tv] because they make their own conlangs", I'd suspect that, no, that isn't the case. For most conlangers I've met, which includes users on the ZBB, conlangs from various media they came into contact with, as well as just a general interest in languages, are the main driving force in how they came to conlanging, but since the majority of conlangs from those media were, as you might put it, "pseudo-conlangs" (either naming languages, semi-gibberish, or just generally lacking in depth and scope), they're just not that interested in them. For example, there's actually not that much to work with when it comes to Ferengi, for example, if you only pay attention to the canon material (I think there's three or four episodes in total that contain any Ferengi dialogue at all) and there's not always much continuity between them, so the ones that do remain interested in it are the ones who are trying to expand it (and that can be for various reasons).


Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 I also sense on the group a lack of humor and tolerance for people trying to express themselves and being misunderstood. At one point, I wrote this long joke about how on facebook groups everyone praises me but everyone somehow took it very literally. I thought it was funny, over the top, and charming but my audience somehow read it seriously, probably because of innate ageism and general lack of experience with the facebook group side of facebook. In fact, it was unusual how it was often that admins or members on the new Zompist Bboard would take whatever I said literally or not read into things or not take hints or read what I wrote in the worst possible light. And you know what that all is a sign of, in scholarly communities. Usually if people are reading whatever you write in the worst possible light, on the internet, or at a job, they're making excuses to get rid of you and they're huge liars. Though sometimes it seems they didn't carefully read what you wrote due to not giving it the time. But it's usually easy to guess which one is going on from past experience and circumstances. Despite all the talk about the internet being a tone-deaf forum.
Again, this is an issue with the ZBB which should be left there, not brought here, and presents users' motives without evidence. Several of the people who criticised you are in their 20s, so it's not solely an issue of ageism. If I had to guess why people took you literally, it's because you have a long-running tendency in the majority of your posts to state that you're in a unique position as a someone researching conlangs, or that you're research is important or might one day be famous, sometimes multiple times within a single thread. If that in itself is a joke, I suggest you stop making it, because no-one's finding it funny.


Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 I don't know. But I've read about the world's online and offline video game communities and I suspect a cultural overlap with conlangers. And also with miniature gaming and role-playing communities, though that one is more apparent.

You would think, though, considering how rare the hobby is, that they would be more welcoming to (minority) outsiders. But no. And there's lots of facebook group echo chambers like that without much cultural sensitivity or financial diversity, so I'm familiar with the premise. Some political parties are built around this premise, worldwide. Fortunately, the UN is not and everyone knows they've got a strong army to back up their cheery peace-keeping mission. Cough.
Again, this 1) misrepresents the make-up of the ZBB (how can you tell how diverse or monolithic the ZBB is when you can't see the users or determine their ages, for example), and 2) puts words in their mouths. And I don't even know what point you're making at all when talking about the UN.


Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 So it's amazing I'm continuing with posting about conlangs, this time around. But I'm quite shaken considering all the time and money I've put into private research.

When I make the threads, I just try my best to set it up. One thing I notice about the internet in general is that most of the people I interact with are on it a lot. Me, not so much. So I just can't respond to everybody, in general, and otherwise am rushed and often not so composed while composing. I have to tip-toe around about this because people online easily take offense at and easily misunderstand that some other people in the world aren't on the internet that much or are hella busy in ways they're not even familiar with.
Being busy is a good enough reason to not respond to everyone [:)] And, yeah, the internet can be a damn sucky place for the sorts of things people can say. Different sites will have different methods for dealing with that, but it's also about how you handle it. If you're feeling too shaken to continue posting, but you can't make it online much, it might not be worth you're time or energy to come back and just leave things behind. If you don't think it's doing your mental health any good, continuing to push users who are responding negatively is probably a bad idea.


Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 I think I started the Atlantean language thread by linking to the Zompist Bboard thread which set it all up quite nicely from the beginning. But take in mind that I don't especially like the language and that I've been studying it on and off since 2006 and most of what I ever do is give its general premise since no on has heard of it and people have hardly even heard of Klingon.
I think that's the sort of thing jimydog000 was referring to. You're relying on links to do most of your work rather than setting out what your intentions actually are in the first place.

To put it in terms of the layout of a research paper, you don't often provide what might parallel an "abstract" or an "introduction" which lays out what follows next (given your later reply to jimydog000, I suspect you're attempting to set up the context in the title, but given the character limit, I'm not sure why you don't just move that down into the body of your post). Half the time, when you start a thread, it almost looks as if the initial post is being written in response to something that was written somewhere else online, or you're just not providing the context behind your posts, e.g. why are you posting, what is the purpose of the thread, what are your goals, and, more importantly, given that you're most often dealing with someone else's work, why that specific work?


Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 Yeah, I've seen "Little Green Men" also. So it's totally different from that one, huh? Alright, well, good to know. There's apparently not a lot of serious, skilled interest in conlangs or especially in conlangs based on or from Star Trek. I see talent floating around but apparently it's focused on merely writing grammars of conlangs, but no sizeable translations! ha, without more direct reference to fiction in popular books, tv, and movies. So it's like the art film scene, they like art films without realizing that most people don't watch art films and they're being frivolous snobs. There is a real and dangerous uselessness to not taking into account what's on the budget and within the reach of most of the world. But that's not going to stop the lemmings. So I play along, when I have to. I try, anyway. I'm not going to meet anyone more than half way. I just don't have the time for that sort of nonsense. And most people do not and therein lies the problem.
I'm honestly a little surprised that you wouldn't have noticed a difference between the Ferengi language as shown in the TV series (which, as mentioned above, was never a fully fleshed out language within the series, and differed between, say, ST:TNG and ST:ENT - something similar happened with Klingon, especially in DS9), and the language as worked through by Miller and Salo (who, worth noting, never worked on Ferengi on the show, but attempted to expand on it after the fact). If you'd looked into it to any significant degree, and these were your main sources, would that have been something particular easy to spot, and then worth noting in your initial post?

As for the second part of this section, regarding "the art film scene" and the comparison to conlangers, again, your putting words in people's mouths, and treating groups as monolithic, which, again, I suggest you not continue doing.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Khemehekis »

Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 I don't know. But I've read about the world's online and offline video game communities and I suspect a cultural overlap with conlangers. And also with miniature gaming and role-playing communities, though that one is more apparent.

You would think, though, considering how rare the hobby is, that they would be more welcoming to (minority) outsiders. But no. And there's lots of facebook group echo chambers like that without much cultural sensitivity or financial diversity, so I'm familiar with the premise. Some political parties are built around this premise, worldwide. Fortunately, the UN is not and everyone knows they've got a strong army to back up their cheery peace-keeping mission. Cough.
Just so you know Bob ("as you know, Bob"? [:P]), I don't play video games. I don't play RPG's either. I don't even know what "miniature gaming" is.

Oh, and I'm also an ethnic minority myself. I'm Jewish.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Khemehekis »

Linguifex wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:40 Bob, I have to say, jimmydog000 is correct. On fora such as this one, there are certain conventions that are, while not strictly speaking required, then at least strongly recommended and encouraged. You may not be on the Internet all the time, but when you’re in Rome, it’s good to do as Romans do. Your reception might be more favorable if you took the time to format your posts more like the others on here.
Jimmydog000? I thought his name was Jimydog000, to rhyme with "slimy" and "blimey".
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by elemtilas »

Bob wrote: 05 Aug 2020 18:18 Yeah, I'm trying but I already had the Atlantean thread set up on the new Zompist Bboard and they kicked me out for totally inane reasons. Which they've done to me once or twice before in the past, at about 5 year intervals, probably because Zompist doesn't like or get younger people and lacks a linguistics degree and resents that I have a BA Linguistics. I also specialize in conlangs from books, movies, and tv, which he and most of the other members seem to hate because they make their own conlangs. And it's for sure some international and regional cultural mismatch. Most of the members are clearly from the USA or UK, CIS White Middle-Aged Men. This sort of thing is hard to explain. You know, on the major polyglot facebook groups, we got all kinds of people from all over the world, so I'm not used to what is apparently a bunch of USA and UK men who don't have much idea about how things go in the rest of the world or outside of their seemingly oft-frequented conlanging website.
Actually no: you were removed from ZBB because you engaged in some pretty bad behaviours against several members of that forum (myself included). I would counsel you to follow Sangi's recent advice (if not my own warning when you first posted here) and leave it there, because you're heading down the same path here. Same goes for your almost pathological insistence on reminding everyone that you're a "world famous" expert in this and a "unique scholar" of that and that you have a BA in linguistics. I doubt very much that Mark cares whether you have a degree or not. It's your behaviours that count. Literally everyone here in CBB, and for that matter, everyone in ZBB, who has engaged with you has demonstrated considerable patience and has offered you good counsel on a wide variety of issues. That you keep insisting that everyone is out to get you or is a racist or hates what you do is just nonsense. Please stop it!
I also sense on the group a lack of humor and tolerance for people trying to express themselves and being misunderstood. At one point, I wrote this long joke about how on facebook groups everyone praises me but everyone somehow took it very literally. I thought it was funny, over the top, and charming but my audience somehow read it seriously, probably because of innate ageism and general lack of experience with the facebook group side of facebook. In fact, it was unusual how it was often that admins or members on the new Zompist Bboard would take whatever I said literally or not read into things or not take hints or read what I wrote in the worst possible light. And you know what that all is a sign of, in scholarly communities. Usually if people are reading whatever you write in the worst possible light, on the internet, or at a job, they're making excuses to get rid of you and they're huge liars. Though sometimes it seems they didn't carefully read what you wrote due to not giving it the time. But it's usually easy to guess which one is going on from past experience and circumstances. Despite all the talk about the internet being a tone-deaf forum.
I think If you'd said it only once maybe (just maybe!) people would have thought it was funny. But that's not what you do: you keep repeating it! And you've been repeating it for years. You do actually have a tendency to demand praise and adulation. You have a tendency to offer self-adulation. This is not a joke by any stretch of the imagination. They took it seriously because you kept saying it over and over again.

As for everyone being "liars" and trying to get rid of you, well, you do realise that the evidence counters that claim, right? Or were you "just joking" when attacking folks there? Also, it's more the other way around: if everyone is reading your work in "the worst possible light", just consider that it might possibly have more to do either with what you wrote or how you wrote it or how you presented it.

As a matter of fact, you got quite a lot of positive reaction (or at least no negative reaction!) to what you wrote, over in the Other Place. Same goes for here. In both places, you have been pretty soundly criticised for the same things: how you write and how you present your ideas. This is not people being liars. This is people wanting to read and understand what you're trying to say, but you're preventing us from that by the way you present your work.


When I make the threads, I just try my best to set it up. One thing I notice about the internet in general is that most of the people I interact with are on it a lot. Me, not so much. So I just can't respond to everybody, in general, and otherwise am rushed and often not so composed while composing. I have to tip-toe around about this because people online easily take offense at and easily misunderstand that some other people in the world aren't on the internet that much or are hella busy in ways they're not even familiar with.
This is just a matter of time management. It's been suggested before that instead of copying and pasting these gargantuan posts from another forum and formatting links and rewriting your autobiography and kind of rambling on: it would help matters greatly -- for you and us! -- if you just clearly and concisely presented your thoughts. Then you'd actually have time to engage in discussion! We could all move beyond square one.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by sangi39 »

I hope this doesn't need saying too many times, but can we all move on from the ZBB stuff? It doesn't need hammering home this much, surely.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Bob »

I did not. I private messaged people who did not get along with me in hopes of winning them over and they twisted what I wrote them and unfairly got me thrown off the group. I also made clear to the admins and the members that I wrote that I'm a recent immigrant from the Philippines to America, explained things, and then was still suspiciously spoken to and excluded from the group.

This is really absurd. This Elemtilas person and some others bullied and harassed me off of Zompist Bboard and now he's trying to do it here. And it's quite clear to me from what he wrote me in private messages that it's because I'm a recent immigrant Filipino American. I hope the admins and moderators will stand up to him and not allow him or others to harass and bully me off this website as well.

I'm sad, after all these years of occasionally visiting Zompist Bboard, to be consistently mistreated by Marc Rosenfelder. I remember the other times I was on the group and attacked by bullies and his unfair siding with them in the past. I have asked around Facebook and found others who were treated the same way, and read of such things on Reddit.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Bob »

I read some more of Elemtilas' recent reply and I think it needs to be said that in all his replies to my posts here on Conlang Bulletin Board or Zompist Bboard, he consistently does not carefully enough read what I write. And so his replies reflect many misunderstandings of what I have written. I suspect he even does it on purpose, considering what he's written to me taken as a whole and also what he's written to me in private.

This is why I ignore most of his posts, it's hard to stand this sort of thing. On top of him driving me off Zompist Bboard.

I don't have time for a point by point explanation of what he got wrong with my posts and replies.

It's too bad more people aren't replying to my posts so I would be less inclined to deal with his typical laziness and or tactics.

But it always shocks me the sort of thing he's writing, knowing as he does that I block him and avoid reading his replies. I asked him in private on Zompist Bboard to stop reply to my posts and he just continues and it's the same sort of suspicious stuff.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Bob »

Anyway, in the next day or two, I'm going to be studying this conlang, making notes, doing a translation into it, and writing up thoughts about it.

From what I recently skimmed over of it, it does not look like a very extensive or well fleshed-out conlang.

My approach to evaluating conlangs, though, seems to be eccentric, so we'll see what I think of it. It has the advantage of existing and maybe being derived from tv show pseudo-conlang material, so that's usually what gets my attention about conlangs. And this despite the little welcome this specialization in the study of conlanging has generally gained for me. But this is odd because everyone has a specialization in language science. Yet increasingly it seems to me that there is a disconnect between language science and conlanging.

It's interesting if the Ferengi Language of the tv episode "Little Green Men" is different from this 1995 David Salo et al one. But I'm not that much into Star Trek conlangs, so I'm just doing this one because David Salo's work interests me a lot and for years I have had a successful sense of studying related things and re-doing the work of others - leading to discoveries and progress.

Of course, there are many obstacles in the way of excellence in scholarship. I know many of the personable ones from my 5 years' experience on facebook. I sometimes know a troll when I see it, a hidden agenda. Maybe usually after they've trampled me underfoot. Yet, I continue and increasingly know how to deal with such things, even when I am in some ways less than victorious.

Notably, I think, that Ferengi Language of Timothy Miller with David Salo, it interests me because I take special interest in the pseudo-conlangs and pseudo-conscripts and conlangs and conscripts of Star Trek - notably those not made by Marc Okrand. My colleague and fellow Atlantean Language facebook group admin Titus Apollinarius (Yuri) made me aware of this Ferengi Conlang some years ago. And now I think it will be time for me to weigh in on it - to the celebration of one of my best friends, and to some acclaim at present among fans of Star Trek and even fans of conlanging.

But, as in all things, I do what I do, and even suffer the undeserved outrages that I suffer, for the sake of a broader, and much-studied, concept of excellence in scholarship. For which I have a 5-year, well-earned and well-deserved reputation for fair and kind and cosmopolitan and international treatment, as member and admin of facebook groups, mostly. Though I am now long unaccustomed to the message board website format, the last few months on Zompist Bboard and now here, I am trying to bring that same reputation to these more storied and acclaimed of internet conlang communities, to see if they live up to their various reputations.

Since I have often on such message boards, at least Zompist Bboard, been asked to present my own work, here again is my website:

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

Yet it is a curious fact that after presenting it, I have likewise also received replies decrying it or me even posting a link to it.

And so, until later this week, I encourage everyone to patience and anticipation.

Though it seems only a few members of this website are interested much in this language or the sorts of languages which it is or ought to be associated with. Or the sorts of scholars with which I would like to associate it, or the sorts of scholars with which I would like to associate. Which is, apparently, a work in progress.

I have on facebook managed to find a niche of international and reasonable communities which value - sometimes only for a few years at a time - my presence and contribution. 5 years' experience has taught me much but not safeguarded me against all misunderstandings or underhanded tricks. So we will see.

I am a mere simple scholar and do not make my way in this world by trickery but by hard work. Though clout and seniority in internet forums - I could not say I know nothing of these things. Though where they are most misused, I could say I have found myself uninterested and often unwelcome.

...

But I could lose a lot for this gambit: To do these two weeks of studies in Klingon, Mutsun, Vulcan, and Ferengi, I've put aside my work on Okrand's Atlantean at a critical juncture. I should be infamous for leaving projects accomplished but unfinished and under-presented. Though I would rather people read between the lines and imagine my less typeable though more important qualities. And at least the ancient texts are in agreement regarding this. ( I am slightly famous as a scholar of a great many ancient languages. )
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Bob »

You know what? I may do some of the "The Rules of Acquisition" instead. I was actually going to do c 1800s maybe part Gypsy dieting proverbs from England. Really amazing stuff.

I don't know, "The Rules of Acquisition" are not very wholesome. But I do love texts like this. I study ancient law codes especially but also ancient and historic collections of proverbs.

I recently looked through those on Memory Beta and Memory Alpha, the articles on The Rules of Acquisition, and the vocabulary was very Star Trek and very like modern finance and interesting. And I have studied thieves' cants (Villion, that one about Spanish such) and such quite a bit but not as much as I've studied ancient law codes.

But if I did, I could not translate them all, I can't give it that sort of time.

I like to translate historic texts with slight changes that bring more reality into Star Trek - notably bilingual texts in great ancient languages. "The Rules of Acquisition", for example, contrast with ... riveting (though often disturbing and horrifying) court case summaries from Ancient China. In Classical Chinese. See what I mean?

This is why I chose "The Epic of Son-Jara" to translate into Atlantean. It's already got a bunch of modern fiction associated with it - why not match it with something more palatable to myself and the vast majority of my eager audience? ( I run facebook's largest group on "Ancient Languages". Conlangs are far less popular than even these. )

So far, for Klingon Mutsun Vulcan week, I have chosen 3 texts so far that are not bilingual but originally only in English. No, the first was in Ancient Greek. At least the second was from the Mutsun (actually a related Yokuts Language) people!

What a tough, tough choice!

Of course, we do have a theme going on in this thread regarding underhanded trickery. But the anti-benefits of monolingualism, I think, also. So hmm. Tough choice.

A bilingual text in Classical Chinese is like double-duty because it's way harder than Egyptian Hieroglyphic - though Sumerian would be harder - if the originally spelling was available, which it usually is not - and most of my other texts to pull from are in alphabets. Though choice.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by clawgrip »

Since you say that you're not that much into Star Trek conlangs, I find it curious that you have run a Facebook group for the past two years dedicated to the Okrand languages, the most famous and well-developed of which is obviously Klingon. What motivates you to run a group centered on a language you're not especially into?

Also, what has led you to study and review the Ferengi language now, of all times, when your work on Atlantean is at such a critical juncture? And why give yourself only a couple days to do it? Especially since several years have already passed since Titus Apollinarius made you aware of the Ferengi language.

Maybe you could also explain what it is about your method of evaluating conlangs that could be considered "eccentric," as you say.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by sangi39 »

Right, as much as I dislike doing this, if people can't move on from the ZBB stuff, I'm going to lock this thread. Same goes for the Vulcan/Klingon one.

I'm at work at the moment, so I can't respond to everything that's going on at the moment in any real depth (at least not for another 6 hours), but I'm stepping in before this goes any further.

Again, drop it, everyone, or this thread gets locked.

(I'm aware I have PMs to reply to as well)
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by sangi39 »

Okay, unfortunately, I haven't had as much free time as I would have liked this evening, so I'm going to have to try and summarise. This is aimed at everyone who's taken part in this thread, the Klingon, Vulcan, and Mutsun: Quick Okrand Languages Translation Projects thread, and it applies throughout the Board as a whole more generally. So here goes:



Issues you've had elsewhere on the internet are beyond our control as moderators on this forum - If you've had issues with a particular user in other parts of the internet, e.g. other forums, Facebook, Discord, Reddit, etc. and you don't feel comfortable interacting with them, then either try not to as best you can, or take a few steps back before you do. Do not bring drama off-board to the CBB if you can help it at all.

Also note, as has been stated before, and is stated in the House Rules, we have a Report function. If you feel that someone's response, either in a thread, or in a Private Message (PM), then please feel free to hit that button. If it's on this board, then we do have the ability to do something about it, and we do try to get to stuff as soon as we can (we all have our own lives, jobs, schedules, and live in different time zones, so we can respond immediately, but we try as best we can).

Further, if we advise that you stop doing something, or that a thread move on from something, then please, stop doing it, and please move on, and don't lash out at the people reporting your posts (as stated in the follow up to the House Rules). On the one hand, it makes for a less friendly environment, and, on the other hand, it makes more work for us as moderators and, honestly, it gets tiring having to repeat the same stuff over and over again.



So, for the last time, everybody reading this, everybody who's posted, or plans on posting, do not bring up the ZBB stuff again. Feel free to discuss it via PMs (and, again, report PMs you thing break the House Rules or that you aren't comfortable with), but if it's over there, in the past, it is not something we can do anything about. We can deal with stuff that actually happens here, but that's it.



Now, if anyone wants to discuss Ferengi (Clawgrip has some fairly good questions that I think are worth answering, for example), then please do carry on.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by masako »

what does the Ferengi phonology look like?

I know that most of their names tend to be monosyllabic, so their syllable structure is probably very complex, I would imagine

could you describe it please?

what is the morphosyntactic alignment?

I would also imagine that a multitude of lemma center around wealth, trade, money...are there any particularly unique lexemes that concern currency, etc?

supposedly it rains almost constantly on Ferenginar...are there also a plethora of words for describing various types, intensities, and durations of rain storms?
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Man in Space »

masako wrote: 12 Aug 2020 04:24I know that most of their names tend to be monosyllabic, so their syllable structure is probably very complex, I would imagine
Counterpoint: Quark is the son of Keldar. The names we have include Quark, Rom, Keldar, Nog, Tog, Zek, Mookie (which admittedly is, IIRC, a nickname), and Brunt. If they do use monosyllables, maybe it's tonal.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by masako »

Linguifex wrote: 12 Aug 2020 04:41
masako wrote: 12 Aug 2020 04:24I know that most of their names tend to be monosyllabic, so their syllable structure is probably very complex, I would imagine
Counterpoint: Quark is the son of Keldar. The names we have include Quark, Rom, Keldar, Nog, Tog, Zek, Mookie (which admittedly is, IIRC, a nickname), and Brunt. If they do use monosyllables, maybe it's tonal.
It was "Moogie" (voiced velar plosive) ;), and I had forgotten about "Keldar". Also, now that I think of it, Moogie's name was "Ishka", obviously bisyllabic. I'd say that tones may in fact be very prevalent. Given their sensitive hearing they are likely to hear an entire range of tones that humans wouldn't be able to perceive with the "naked ear".
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by clawgrip »

There are actually quite a few multisyllabic Ferengi names:

List of Ferengi on Memory Alpha
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by masako »

clawgrip wrote: 12 Aug 2020 05:40 There are actually quite a few multisyllabic Ferengi names:

List of Ferengi on Memory Alpha
True. However the majority are monosyllabic, which still suggests a complex syllable structure. That's all I'm saying, really.

Kinda like the Klingons having an overwhelming preponderance of names beginning with a velar or uvular plosive.

Just a pattern that's suggestive of a linguistic trait.
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Re: Star Trek Ferengi Language by Timothy Miller and David Salo from 1995

Post by Khemehekis »

clawgrip wrote: 12 Aug 2020 05:40 There are actually quite a few multisyllabic Ferengi names:

List of Ferengi on Memory Alpha
Huh, interesting, one of the names is Nibor. I have a friend on another forum who uses that as her screenname, although her IRL name is Robin, so in her case it's obviously an ananym (like Trebor from the ZBB).
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