(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 27 Mar 2020 21:41My setting's Phoenixfolk language has [o̞ ɯ] and an extensive set of palatalizations. Are [fʲo̞ fʲɯ → fø̞ fy], for example, plausible?
Sure it is. In fact, Old French had something like it without even needing palatalization on the consonant before.

I wrote a thing about the relevant change in Old French in the Romance tidbits thread, with examples, if you're interested:
https://cbbforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8& ... 09#p299609
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Ser wrote: 27 Mar 2020 23:37
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 27 Mar 2020 21:41My setting's Phoenixfolk language has [o̞ ɯ] and an extensive set of palatalizations. Are [fʲo̞ fʲɯ → fø̞ fy], for example, plausible?
Sure it is. In fact, Old French had something like it without even needing palatalization on the consonant before.

I wrote a thing about the relevant change in Old French in the Romance tidbits thread, with examples, if you're interested:
https://cbbforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8& ... 09#p299609
I, actually, saw that between posting the question and your answer.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco »

What are some ways to achieve a portmanteau agreement system?

Let's say a language has polypersonal agreement, but uses one affix to mark both the subject and the object.

So, /kanu/ is a verb that means "to fight." The suffix -/jon/ marks the subject as first person and the object as second person, so /kanujon/ means "I fight you."
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguistCat »

LinguoFranco wrote: 28 Mar 2020 22:48 What are some ways to achieve a portmanteau agreement system?

Let's say a language has polypersonal agreement, but uses one affix to mark both the subject and the object.

So, /kanu/ is a verb that means "to fight." The suffix -/jon/ marks the subject as first person and the object as second person, so /kanujon/ means "I fight you."
I'm not an expert but I'd assume that if an earlier stage of the language suffixed the personal pronouns (possibly even with different forms for subject and object), and then went through sound changes or just simplifications, the suffixed pronouns could fuse and become their own suffixes for agreement.

Using your example, maybe all basic verbs ended in vowels, and the first person (singular) pronoun was /i/ while the second person (singular) was /on/. The language then went through a change where /i/ > /j/ between any vowels, so /ka.nu.i.on/ becomes /ka.nu.jon/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

LinguistCat wrote: 29 Mar 2020 06:41
LinguoFranco wrote: 28 Mar 2020 22:48 What are some ways to achieve a portmanteau agreement system?

Let's say a language has polypersonal agreement, but uses one affix to mark both the subject and the object.

So, /kanu/ is a verb that means "to fight." The suffix -/jon/ marks the subject as first person and the object as second person, so /kanujon/ means "I fight you."
I'm not an expert but I'd assume that if an earlier stage of the language suffixed the personal pronouns (possibly even with different forms for subject and object), and then went through sound changes or just simplifications, the suffixed pronouns could fuse and become their own suffixes for agreement.

Using your example, maybe all basic verbs ended in vowels, and the first person (singular) pronoun was /i/ while the second person (singular) was /on/. The language then went through a change where /i/ > /j/ between any vowels, so /ka.nu.i.on/ becomes /ka.nu.jon/
I think it's important to add that /i/ became something else in other environments. This is to make the system unanalyzable to a modern speaker. So, if for example the third person singular object marker was /n/, you could have have /in/ become /ĩ/. This means you could have a portmanteau marker /ĩ/. If the first person plural object marker was /na/, you could have the -/i/ suffix stay as it is here.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Considering my setting's phoenixfolk see themselves as the more-or-less humanoid embodiment of the mythical phoenix, is it plausible for their language to have a single word referring to them and the creature as a combined entity, or is two words a better option? I'd like to use a single word, but the language uses suffixes, like Japanese—which could mean the word having suffix for each "people" and "language".
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 30 Mar 2020 15:24 Considering my setting's phoenixfolk see themselves as the more-or-less humanoid embodiment of the mythical phoenix, is it plausible for their language to have a single word referring to them and the creature as a combined entity, or is two words a better option? I'd like to use a single word, but the language uses suffixes, like Japanese—which could mean the word having suffix for each "people" and "language".
Can you reformulate the question?
So, you are asking if one word can mean both the phoenixfolk and what?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 »

Omzinesý wrote: 30 Mar 2020 15:40
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 30 Mar 2020 15:24 Considering my setting's phoenixfolk see themselves as the more-or-less humanoid embodiment of the mythical phoenix, is it plausible for their language to have a single word referring to them and the creature as a combined entity, or is two words a better option? I'd like to use a single word, but the language uses suffixes, like Japanese—which could mean the word having suffix for each "people" and "language".
Can you reformulate the question?
So, you are asking if one word can mean both the phoenixfolk and what?
Correct. I'm asking if one word can be collective of phoenixfolk and the phoenix bird. Is that plausible, or is having two separate words—one for phoenixfolk and one for the bird—a better option?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý »

yangfiretiger121 wrote: 30 Mar 2020 16:57
Omzinesý wrote: 30 Mar 2020 15:40
yangfiretiger121 wrote: 30 Mar 2020 15:24 Considering my setting's phoenixfolk see themselves as the more-or-less humanoid embodiment of the mythical phoenix, is it plausible for their language to have a single word referring to them and the creature as a combined entity, or is two words a better option? I'd like to use a single word, but the language uses suffixes, like Japanese—which could mean the word having suffix for each "people" and "language".
Can you reformulate the question?
So, you are asking if one word can mean both the phoenixfolk and what?
Correct. I'm asking if one word can be collective of phoenixfolk and the phoenix bird. Is that plausible, or is having two separate words—one for phoenixfolk and one for the bird—a better option?
It depends on how they identify with the bird.
I think naming clans after specis, like "Wolfs", is quite usual. But if needed, some specification should be possible "Phoenixfolk" like you say.
Another option is that the bird is named after them. Word X means Phoenixfolk and X-bird means the phoenix bird. I think "man bird" would be quite natural a name for a bird that somehow resembles humans, say, its singing sounds like human.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov »

I have a language in which the Aspect and mood are marked by a postposition (tense is marked by suppletion- ANADEW Tibetan does this). I want to expand my syntax abilities with this language. Is there anything I can do about where the negative postposition goes- between the verb and the AM postposition or after the AM postposition- for different pragmatics or other functions? I want to string AM postpositions and have the order give different subaspects/moods, anyway. Could putting it before and after the AM postposition (like an optional version of the French ne.....pas) work for emphasis on the negation?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

Mood and negation is a good place to start. The order of the two can be determined by semantic scope. Consider the following examples from German.

(1) Ich kann nicht sprechen.
1SG can.1SG NEG speak-INF
"It is not the case that I can speak"

(2) Ich kann nicht sprechen.
1SG can.1SG NEG speak-INF
"It is the case that I can refrain from speaking."

These sentences sound the same (except maybe for intonation). Now compare this to the following Papua Indonesian sentences.

(3) Sa tidak bisa bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is not the case that I can speak"

(4) Sa bisa tidak bicara.
1SG can NEG speak
"It is the case that I can refrain from speaking."

In these sentences the order of negation and modality marker indicates the difference in meaning. The general tendency is to get a negated reading of the modal sentence if the negation occurs outside of the modal marker, i.e. further away.

Maybe this is something you could incorporate somehow into your conlang?
Edit: Fixed a stupid glossing error.
Last edited by Creyeditor on 09 Apr 2020 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Khemehekis »

Creyeditor wrote: 09 Apr 2020 13:46 (3) Sa tidak bisa bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is not the case that I can speak"

(4) Sa bisa tidak bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is the case that I can refrain from speaking."
You gloss both of these sentences as "NEG can". Out of bisa and tidak, which is "not" and which is "can"?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes »

Khemehekis wrote: 09 Apr 2020 16:02
Creyeditor wrote: 09 Apr 2020 13:46 (3) Sa tidak bisa bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is not the case that I can speak"

(4) Sa bisa tidak bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is the case that I can refrain from speaking."
You gloss both of these sentences as "NEG can". Out of bisa and tidak, which is "not" and which is "can"?
tidak is NEG
bisa is ‘can’
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor »

DesEsseintes wrote: 10 Apr 2020 16:57
Khemehekis wrote: 09 Apr 2020 16:02
Creyeditor wrote: 09 Apr 2020 13:46 (3) Sa tidak bisa bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is not the case that I can speak"

(4) Sa bisa tidak bicara.
1SG NEG can speak
"It is the case that I can refrain from speaking."
You gloss both of these sentences as "NEG can". Out of bisa and tidak, which is "not" and which is "can"?
tidak is NEG
bisa is ‘can’
Thank you [:)]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Sequor »

Creyeditor wrote: 09 Apr 2020 13:46(1) Ich kann nicht sprechen.
1SG can.1SG NEG speak-INF
"It is not the case that I can speak"

(2) Ich kann nicht sprechen.
1SG can.1SG NEG speak-INF
"It is the case that I can refrain from speaking."

These sentences sound the same (except maybe for intonation).
And stress too? 1) [ɪçˈkʰannɪçt ˈʃpʁɛçn], 2) [ɪçˈkʰan ˈnɪçt ˈʃpʁɛçn̩].

Kinda like English "I cannot speak" [aɪˈkʰænət ˈspik] vs. "I can (just) not speak" [ˈaɪ kʰn dʒʌst ˈnɑt ˈspik].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vlürch »

How do you come up with a cool but simple name for your conlang and conpeople that has zero hits on Google and doesn't sound like any real-life language name or ethnonym or anything like that? EDIT: I mean, after thinking about it, what I want to ask is: can it be justifiable if a conlang's name is just one or two letters different from something that already exists? Because obviously it can't be identical to someone else's conlang's/concountry's/conwhatever's name or a real-life language's/people's/whatever's name... (at least unless it's meant to have a connection to them or something)

I was really satisfied with the name I came up with for the conlang I'm currently working on (still the vaguely Ural-Altaic one written with Chinese characters lol) and didn't mind it being somewhat similar to a certain real-life language and ethnonym and having 100-200 hits on Google, but then I noticed the name is both the name of someone else's concountry's city and apparently also an alternative name for a real-world place... and all of the subtle variations I've come up with also have hits on Google... [>_<]
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 26 Feb 2020 19:53Do you include sounds in your conlang that you yourself can't pronounce?
Sorry for replying so late, but I just saw this and figured I'd reply. I used to always include at least one sound I can't pronounce properly in every conlang, but nowadays I mostly stick to sounds I can pronounce somewhat reliably. Having only /m n ŋ p b t d k g ʔ t͡ʃ s ʃ f ʋ j h r l/ or similar sounds in every conlang would get pretty boring and repetitive quickly... on the other hand, including too many sounds that are too difficult to pronounce will end up having a negative effect on motivation. It's a delicate balance that has to be found case by case with each conlang, I think. So, nowadays I usually include sounds I can pronounce at least almost correctly at least most of the time, like /q d͡ʒ z x ɣ ɬ/ or whatever; I mean, I have trouble pronouncing [q] next to front vowels and [h] in contact with back vowels (especially /hu/, that just becomes [xu] like 93% of the time) and whatnot, but at least I know how they're supposed to sound and will only cringe at myself for failing to get them to come out. Something weird like /ʘ͡q͡ʙ̝̊ʼ/, on the other hand...
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by lsd »

use only an invented writing, in this case no chance to even type its name in google...
(what is the matter for a nonexistent country to have a same name country in real life parallel world ?)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Khemehekis »

When I google "Kankonian", I find stuff like this:

http://aboutlasmock.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... nians.html

and this:

https://ultradragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Kankonian_Race

I'm not going to change it, because I invented the word "Kankonian" since before I or most people had the Internet.





On the plus side, the word "Txabao" appears to be unique.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 »

IIRC, "yantas" (the name of my conworld) brings back results for car rim sales, especially in the Philippines.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus »

Vlürch wrote: 11 Apr 2020 03:35 How do you come up with a cool but simple name for your conlang and conpeople that has zero hits on Google and doesn't sound like any real-life language name or ethnonym or anything like that? EDIT: I mean, after thinking about it, what I want to ask is: can it be justifiable if a conlang's name is just one or two letters different from something that already exists? Because obviously it can't be identical to someone else's conlang's/concountry's/conwhatever's name or a real-life language's/people's/whatever's name... (at least unless it's meant to have a connection to them or something)
Why 'obviously'? I mean, really, who the hell cares?

I mean, sure, some caution may be needed. It's best not to use a really well-known real name, or a really contentious one. Calling your language "German" or "Muslim" might be unwise (although I know there's a conlang on this board called 'Austrian', so..). You may also want to take care not to use any ethnic or homophobic slurs, or swearwords. Although even that depends, particularly with shorter names that can easily be coincidental - once the initial giggling subsides and people can see that there's no ill intent, you could probably get away with talking about Fag or Jap - I mean, there might well be languages with those names already, who knows?

And I would avoid any famous fictional names too, so that there's no suspicion of copyright infringement. I'd stear clear of calling your language "Klingon", or "Quenya", or indeed "Hufflepuff". And among conlangers, people may raise eyebrows if you call it "Verdurian" or "Ithkuil".

But if your name just happens to have previously been used by one conlanger five years ago on their private website... who cares if you had the same idea? If after some study you notice that the name is the name of one imaginary city in one imaginary country described on one little-visited website, is that really a problem? Why?

There's only a finite number of letters to use, after all. Some repetition is inevitable!

[this goes double for a posteriori languages, of course. If you're setting a language in Britain, for example, then it's inevitable you're going to end up with languages with names like "Britainese", "Sassonais", "Engleska", "Hibergnol", etc...]
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