Typological voting game

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Re: Typological voting game

Post by shimobaatar »

Ch. 18: A
Ch. 11: A
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by eldin raigmore »

In Round 4, we will be answering one more question about consonants and one question about vowels.
Chapter 18: Absence of Common Consonants: D) No nasals.
Chapter 11: Front Rounded Vowels: C) High only.
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Re: Typological voting game

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Chapter 18: Absence of Common Consonants
A) All present

Chapter 11: Front Rounded Vowels
A) None

Since we have a pretty strict limit on the ratio of consonants to vowels, I think that we should probably consider doing the vowel inventories first since that'll determine the amount of consonants we can have
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by eldin raigmore »

qwed117 wrote: 10 Dec 2020 04:16 Since we have a pretty strict limit on the ratio of consonants to vowels, I think that we should probably consider doing the vowel inventories first since that'll determine the amount of consonants we can have
[+1]
What qwed117 just said.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

qwed117 wrote: 10 Dec 2020 04:16
Since we have a pretty strict limit on the ratio of consonants to vowels, I think that we should probably consider doing the vowel inventories first since that'll determine the amount of consonants we can have
eldin raigmore wrote: 10 Dec 2020 04:26 [+1]
What qwed117 just said.
My plan was this - we're limited to a small consonant inventory (14 or less) and an average vowel inventory (5 or 6). We also have a maximum consonant-to-vowel ratio of 2. Therefore, being limited to the area labeled "B" on the chart below, the actual cap on the number of consonants is 12.

So, if we vote for a consonant inventory with 10 or less consonants, we will have the freedom to propose vowel inventories with either 5 or 6 vowels. If we vote for a consonant inventory with 11 or 12 consonants, then we will have to propose vowel inventories with 6 vowels.

Does that make sense?

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Re: Typological voting game

Post by cedh »

18. A) All present
11. A) None
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by eldin raigmore »

“to the purple born” wrote: Does that make sense?
Yes.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by qwed117 »

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 10 Dec 2020 05:30
qwed117 wrote: 10 Dec 2020 04:16
Since we have a pretty strict limit on the ratio of consonants to vowels, I think that we should probably consider doing the vowel inventories first since that'll determine the amount of consonants we can have
eldin raigmore wrote: 10 Dec 2020 04:26 [+1]
What qwed117 just said.
My plan was this - we're limited to a small consonant inventory (14 or less) and an average vowel inventory (5 or 6). We also have a maximum consonant-to-vowel ratio of 2. Therefore, being limited to the area labeled "B" on the chart below, the actual cap on the number of consonants is 12.

So, if we vote for a consonant inventory with 10 or less consonants, we will have the freedom to propose vowel inventories with either 5 or 6 vowels. If we vote for a consonant inventory with 11 or 12 consonants, then we will have to propose vowel inventories with 6 vowels.

Does that make sense?
But the problem is that since the number of consonants is limited by the number of vowels, we can't really do consonant inventories without the vowel inventory. If we have say 5 vowels, that sets an upper bound on how many consonants we can have, but if we have 8 consonants, that doesn't set any bounds on how many vowels we could have (we could have 5 or 6 vowels). So if we start with vowels we have a limit on the consonants.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

qwed117 wrote: 11 Dec 2020 00:27 But the problem is that since the number of consonants is limited by the number of vowels, we can't really do consonant inventories without the vowel inventory. If we have say 5 vowels, that sets an upper bound on how many consonants we can have, but if we have 8 consonants, that doesn't set any bounds on how many vowels we could have (we could have 5 or 6 vowels). So if we start with vowels we have a limit on the consonants.
Well, yes, but the number of vowels is just as equally limited by the number of consonants. Whichever we do first, it ends up limiting the number we can have for the other. I thought people might prefer greater freedom with the consonants, subject to a potential limit on the number of vowels later on. But if you prefer it the other way, we can do vowels next round instead. It works just as well; there are no remaining vowel quality questions after this round. (I intend for nasal vowels to be voted on separately after the fact.)
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Osia »

18. C) No Fricatives
11. A) None
she/her/hers

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Re: Typological voting game

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Just wanted to summarize what we habe so far.
Spoiler:
TVG:
Chapter 1: Consonant Inventories and Chapter 2: Vowel Quality Inventories
- B ) Small consonant inventory and average vowel quality inventory

Chapter 3: Consonant-Vowel Ratio
A) Low (equal to or below 2.0)

Chapter 4: Voicing in Plosives and Fricatives -
A) No voicing contrast

Chapter 6: Uvular consonants -
A) No uvulars

Chapter 7: Glottalized consonants -
B ) Ejectives only

Chapter 8: Lateral consonants -
A) No laterals

Chapter 9: The velar nasal -
C) No velar nasal

Chapter 19: Presence of Uncommon Consonants - A) None

Chapter 25: Locus of Marking: Whole-language Typology
A) Consistently head-marking

Chapter 81: Order of Subject, Object and Verb
G) Lacking a dominant word order
May I also suggest that we include major allophony and phonological processes in our phoneme inventories? WALS does not have a chapter on these.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Creyeditor wrote: 12 Dec 2020 22:24 May I also suggest that we include major allophony and phonological processes in our phoneme inventories? WALS does not have a chapter on these.
We absolutely will address allophony. However, the consonant and vowel inventories will be just that - inventories. It may be frustrating for those of us with a particular vision for the language, but that's part of the fun of it - if your consonant inventory wins, then other people will be proposing and voting on allophonic processes for it. Things may turn out quite different from how any one of us expected it.

Also, as a practical matter, allophonic processes should wait until we're completely done with the WALS phonological categories - after the inventories, we will address vowel nasality, tone, stress, and rhythm. The outcome of those votes could significantly impact what kind of allophony people may be interested in seeing.

But, just to provide a timeline, I will suggest that after Round 8 - or after Round 9, if we need a special round to address the WALS chapters for stress - we will open submissions for major allophonic processes, and select one or two. And there will be additional opportunities to narrow down allophonic processes later on.
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Re: Typological voting game

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Porphyrogenitos wrote: 13 Dec 2020 04:16 [...]
Also, as a practical matter, allophonic processes should wait until we're completely done with the WALS phonological categories - after the inventories, we will address vowel nasality, tone, stress, and rhythm. The outcome of those votes could significantly impact what kind of allophony people may be interested in seeing.

But, just to provide a timeline, I will suggest that after Round 8 - or after Round 9, if we need a special round to address the WALS chapters for stress - we will open submissions for major allophonic processes, and select one or two. And there will be additional opportunities to narrow down allophonic processes later on.
Ah, I see. That makes sense. Sounds like a good plan [:)]
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by idov »

18: D) No nasals
11: B) None
The accusative of <emo> is <eminem>. :lat:
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by Porphyrogenitos »

Our results for Round 4 are in:
  • Chapter 18: Absence of Common Consonants - All present
  • Chapter 11: Front Rounded Vowels - None

I did count Idov's vote despite them being past the deadline, although the results were the same anyways.

For Round 5, we will be doing two things. First, we have one question:

Chapter 12: Syllable structure
A) Simple syllable structure (maximally CV)
B) Moderately complex syllable structure (maximally CRVC)
C) Complex syllable structure (anything beyond CRVC)

(where R stands for some type of glide or liquid, broadly-defined)

And second, we will be doing something a little bit different: It's our first time taking submissions on a particular topic. And in Round 5, that topic is vowel quality inventories.

Open submission: Vowel quality inventories

Each user can submit as many vowel quality inventories as they wish. In Round 6, we will hold a vote on all of the submitted vowel inventories, and the winner will be the vowel quality inventory we use for this language.

These submissions concern only vowel qualities. We will vote on presence of nasal vowels after we have decided on a vowel quality inventory; likewise with other suprasegmentals and phonation distinctions. We will also handle major allophonic processes separately.

The constraints on our vowel quality inventories are as follows:
  • There must be either 5 or 6 vowel qualities
  • There may be no front rounded vowels
Voting and submissions will close at 5:00 PM GMT (12 noon US Eastern time) on Wednesday, December 23.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by cedh »

12. B) Moderately complex syllable structure (maximally CRVC)

My suggestions for a vowel inventory:

/i ɛ ɑ o ɨ/ (to which we could add /ə/ if we want, but my suggestion is meant as a 5V system)
/i ə u e a o/ (possibly with vowel height harmony where /i ə u/ alternate with /e a o/)
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Re: Typological voting game

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For Round 5, we will be doing two things. First, we have one question:

Chapter 12: Syllable structure
B) Moderately complex syllable structure (maximally CRVC)

For vowel inventories, I will propose three. I hope that's not too much.
Crey1
/i ɨ/
/e o/
/ɛ/
/a/

Crey2
/i u/
/e o/
/ɛ/
/a/

Crey3
/i/
/e o/
/ɛ ɔ/
/a/
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by shimobaatar »

Ch. 12: B

Vowel Inventory Submissions:

/i ɨ u/
/o/
/a/

/i ɨ u/
/e/
/a/

/i u/
/e o/
/ɔ/
/a/
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by eldin raigmore »

For vowel-inventory I support
Crey2
/i u/
/e o/
/ɛ/
/a/
....
For feature 12 I support whatever the majority supports.
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Re: Typological voting game

Post by qwed117 »

Porphyrogenitos wrote: 16 Dec 2020 18:10
  • There must be either 5 or 6 vowel qualities
  • There may be no front rounded vowels
Ch 12. B

Vowel inventory submissions:

Qwone: /a ɛ i u ə ɯ/
Qwoo: /a e i ɨ~ʉ o ɔ/
Qwree: /a i ʉ u ɤʊ̯/
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What is made of man will crumble away.

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