Hakuan (Hakua Nari)

[Davush]

Hakuan (Hakua Nari)

Hakuan, natively known as Hakua Nari /haˈkua ˈnaɾi/ meaning ‘Our Speech’, is my latest project. Unlike most of my other conlangs which tend to have complicated morphologies and quite large phonologies, Hakuan is intended to be simple, transparent, but elegant.

Phonology

Hakuan possesses a relatively small phoneme inventory: 10 consonants and 5 vowels. This gives it a rather low consonant:vowel ratio of 2 (according to WALS, the median C:V ratio is 3.5)

Consonants
/p t k/ <p t k>
/m n/ <m n>
/s h/ <s h>
/r/ <r>
/w j/ <w y>

/p t k/ are plain tenuis stops: unvoiced, unaspirated in all positions except after coda /n/.

After coda /n/, /p t k s/ become voiced. /n/ also assimilates to place of articulation.
That is to say /np nt nk ns/ are realised [mb nd ŋg nz], and are romanised <nb nd ng nz>.

/m/ has a syllabic variant which appears only word-initially, also romanised <m>. Stops and /s/ do not voice after syllabic /m/.

/r/ is most commonly a tap [ɾ], but a trilled [r] and lateral [l] realisation are also permitted.

Coda /h/ after /i/ us realised [ç], and after /u/ as [ɸ], i.e. /ih/ [iç] and /uh/ [uɸ].

(I might add a palatal series /tʃ ɲ ʃ/, but will see how it goes without them for now.)

Vowels
Hakuan has a standard 5-vowel system.

/a e o i u/

/a/ is central [ä]. In unstressed syllables, it is often [ə].
/i u/ have their cardinal values.
/e o/ appear much less frequently than /a i u/ and are restricted to open syllables. They are true-mid [e̝ o̝].

Syllable Structure
CV syllables are predominant. Any single consonant may appear as an onset, although /wu ji/ do not occur.

Syllables consisting only of V are also permitted. Vowels in hiatus always retain their full syllabic value, i.e. sequences such as /ai au iu ui/ are always bisyllabic.

Onset CC clusters consist of:
/pr tr kr/
/ps ts ks/
/m̩/ + C (although perhaps not strictly an onset ‘cluster’ as this is syllabic /m/)

Coda Consonants
Only /n h r/ appear in coda word-internally.
Coda /h/ does not occur word-finally.
Word-final /p t k/ also occur, but only as specific morphemes.

Stress
Stress is non-phonemic and is fixed on the penultimate syllable.

Some examples with broad and narrow IPA transcriptions:

kihnuma /kih.ˈnu.ma/ [kiç.ˈnu.mə]
psira /ˈpsi.ra/ [ˈpsi.ɾə]
hakingu /ha.'kin.gu/ [hə.ˈkiŋ.gu]
hakua /ha.ˈku.a/ [hə.ˈku.ə]
tahkingisuk /tah.kin.ˈgi.suk/ [təh.kiŋ.ˈgi.suk]
suhmui /suh.ˈmu.i/ [suɸ.ˈmu.i]
mtisirisut /m.ti.si.ˈri.sut/ [m̩.ti.si.ˈɾi.sut]

[Creyeditor]

This looks nicely minimalistic, yet detailed and original. Can syllabic /m/ be stressed?

[Porphyrogenitos]

This is very charming and elegant! Like Italian crossed with Japanese, plus coda stops, plus a bit of Polish influence (I say that only because of the penultimate stress, lol. I guess it could be Welsh, too)

I am very curious to see the verbal morphology. With some of the forms you've given I would wonder if it is fairly synthetic.

I also wonder if there might be alternations where a historic schwa is lost between eligible consonants, e.g. katar + -ima = [kəˈtɾimə]. And since you mentioned /e o/ only occur in open syllables, and there is no coda /j w/, I will also speculate that these vowels originated from historic /aj aw/ rhymes. Hmm, and if there ever was a coda /m/ and /s/, I am guessing that /m/ was neutralized to /n/, and that /s/ became /t/ (assuming that final stops are unreleased) or that /s/ first became /h/ in coda, which was then deleted word-finally. I guess the presence of the respective alternations will provide evidence as to the truth of this.

[Davush]

Thank you both!

This looks nicely minimalistic, yet detailed and original. Can syllabic /m/ be stressed?

Theoretically syllabic /m/ can be stressed, although this would only occur in bisyllablic word such as /ˈm.tu/, given fixed penultimate-stress and syllabic /m/ being restricted to word-initial position. I am unsure whether it will occur in roots, or only as a prefixed morpheme, so I am yet to see whether it actually does occur in stressed position…

...
I am very curious to see the verbal morphology. With some of the forms you've given I would wonder if it is fairly synthetic.
...

Your observations/speculations are pretty much spot on! Lots of the clusters do arise from loss of unstressed syllables. /e o/, as you mention, do mostly come from earlier /aj aw/, as well as a few other sources, hence their only ocurring in open syllables. Coda /s/ did also indeed become /h/. Many of these processes are still active and visible within the morphology. Hopefully you can see a few of them ‘in action’ in this post.

Overview

Hakuan has a default word order of VSO, with SVO also being common in certain usages. Its morphology is moderately agglutinative. Its alignment is nominative-accusative.

Noun-phrases are head initial: modifiers and determiners follow the noun(s), and genitive phrases take the structure Noun-Genitive. There will likely be some sort of focus-marking related to SVO word order. I am unsure whether there will be case marking, but if there is, it will probably be limited.

Verbs mark TAM, person and number via suffixes. Some of the main TAM markers are the past, the progressive, and the irrealis, which can combine in various ways for further nuance.

This post will describe some aspects of verbal morphology and morpho-phonology.

Some Verbal Morphology

Hakuan has three main TAM markers which occur as suffixes. These suffixes are essentially comprise of a single consonant, suffixed to the verbal stem before person marking. Depending on the shape of the verbal stem, several morpho-phonological alterations may occur before the TAM suffixes are attached.

-k- marks PROGRESSIVE (PROG)
-s- marks PAST (PST)
-r- marks IRREALIS (IRR)

I will discuss the actual usage and semantic of these markers in another post, as this post is mostly focused on morphology.

Person marking appears after TAM marking. The 1st and 2nd person singular suffixes are:

1sg -in
2sg -uk

-p and -k Stem Verbs

-p and -k stem verbs show some morpho-phonological alteration when the progressive marker -k- is attached.

Summarily, -p and -k become -u and -i respectively before the progressive marker. This is still transparent when the stem vowel is /i/ or /u/:

*tip-k-in > tiukin
*nup-k-in > nuúkin ‘I am sleeping’
*sik-k-in > siíkin
*ruk-k-in > ruikin

Stems in -ap and -ak, however, become -oó- and -eé-. This probably occurred via the intermediary stage of -au -ai > -oo -ee.

sap- ‘to see’
sap-k-in > soókin ‘I am seeing, I can see’

hak- ‘to speak’ (from which root Hakua is derived)
hak-k-in > heékin 'I am speaking'

Note that sequences of identical vowels such as <oo ee> are bisyllabic, rather than treated as a single long vowel, and receive stress accordingly. (I.e. <soókin> is /so.ˈo.kin/ whereas <sóok> would be /ˈso.ok/). I think that when such sequences contain a stressed vowel, they will always be marked with an acute, so: soókin, heékin, sóok, etc.

As clusters of /ks kr ps pr/ are permitted, the IRREALIS -r and PAST -s markers are applied without alteration.

sap-s-in see-PST-1sg : sapsin 'I saw'
sap-r-uk see-IRR-2sg : sapruk 'You will see, You might see'

hak-s-uk speak-PST-2sg : haksuk 'You spoke'
hak-r-in speak-IRR-1sg : hakrin 'I will speak, I might speak'

So a paradigm of sap- and hak- with the three TAM markers for 1sg and 2sg gives:

heékin, heékuk
haksin, haksuk
hakrin, hakruk

soókin, soókuk
sapsin, sapsuk
saprin, sapruk

[Creyeditor]

The Morphopho looks really very cool and juicy. I like it a lot.
I know coming up with examples is hard work, but could you give some examples for the basic syntax, maybe one with a sentence with a transitive verb and one with a complex noun phrase? I recently noticed that I am a very example focused reader

[Omzinesý]

Can two of the TAM suffixes appear in the same word, like 'I was seeing'?

[Davush]

The Morphopho looks really very cool and juicy. I like it a lot.
I know coming up with examples is hard work, but could you give some examples for the basic syntax, maybe one with a sentence with a transitive verb and one with a complex noun phrase? I recently noticed that I am a very example focused reader

Thanks! Of course, I will certainly provide more substantial examples as I work through the languge, but for now I am only focusing on one aspect at a time. The overview I gave was intentionally vague since the language is still in its early days, so I will cover those points in more details in separate posts, with examples.

Can two of the TAM suffixes appear in the same word, like 'I was seeing'?

Indeed they can! I will probably cover the exact range/semantics/pragmatics of how the TAM suffixes are used in a separate post, but I will post a little about the combined TAM suffixes in this post.


T- and S-Stems

T-Stems show one main peculiarity: the PROGRESSIVE marker surfaces as /t/, rather than the expected /k/. Additionally, the stem-final /t/ is reduced to /h/:

ehat- 'to pass sth. by hand, to give by hand' > ehah-t- > ehahtin, ehahtuk 'I am giving, You are giving'

Diachronically, this can possibly be explained as a means to disambiguate from S-Stem verbs which also show final debuccalisation to /h/ and would otherwise result in identical progressive forms: Compare, for example:
has- > hah-k > hahkin

T-Stems behave regularly with the PAST and IRREALIS markers:
PAST: ehat-s- > ehatsin, ehatsuk 'I gave, You gave'
IRR: ehat-r- > ehatrin, ehatruk 'I will/might give, You will/might give'

S-stems behave somewhat differently, however. The PAST marker -s- would result in a geminate /s/, which instead surfaces as singleton /s/:
has-s- > *hass- > hasin, hasuk

/s/ is debucallised to /h/ before the PROG -k- and IRREALIS -r-:
has-k- > hahkin, hahkuk
has-r- > hahrin, hahruk


N-Stems and M-Stems

N-Stems behave regularly with all three TAM markers described here. This includes the regular voicing of /k s/ to /g z/ after coda /n/:

ipun- 'to tell, to inform'
PROG: ipun-k- > ipungin, ipunguk
PAST: ipun-s- > ipunzin, ipunzuk
IRR: ipun-r- > ipunrin, ipunruk

M-Stems are unusual in that the /m/ does not surface in the presence of these TAM morphemes. Instead, stem-final /m/ becomes /un/, which causes the usual allophonic voicing of /k s/.

kam-k- > kaun-k- > kaúngin
kam-s- > kaun-s- > kaúnzin
kam-r- > kaun-r- > kaúnrin

Nonetheless, stem-final /m/ does surface in other contexts, such as with the nominalising suffix /ua/:

kam + ua > kamua

It is unclear whether R-Stems and H-Stems exist. If they do, they are likely few in number and probably also somewhat irregular. W- and Y-Stems do not exist. If they did historically, they are now /e o/ stems. I will write more about vocalic stems in another post.

Combined TAM Markers

Several combinations of the TAM markers are possible for further nuance.

PROG + PAST: For a past progressive or habitual 'I was...ing' or 'I used to...'
PROG + IRR: For a future or irrealis progressive 'I will/might be...ing'
PAST + PAST: Anterior past 'I had done' or 'I did a long time ago'
IRR + PAST: For a conditional or counterfactual: 'I would have done' or 'If I had done'

A vowel is always inserted between consecutive TAM markers. That is to say, e.g. the PROG marker -k- and PAST marker -s- do not join as /ks/, but rather as /kVs/, where V represents a copy-vowel of the final vowel in the person suffix. An example makes this clearer:

tip- 'to wear'

tiukin 'I am wearing' (final vowel = /i/)
tiukuk 'You are wearing (final vowel = /u/)

/kVs/ : PROG-PAST
tiukisin 'I was wearing'
tiukusuk 'You were wearing'

/sVs/ : PAST-PAST
tipsisin, tipsusuk 'You had worn, You had worn'

/kVr/ : PROG-IRR
tiukirin, tiukuruk 'I will be wearing, You will be wearing'

/pVs/ : IRR-PAST
tiprisin, tiprusuk 'I would have worn, You would have worn'

[Davush]

Nouns and Noun Phrases: The Adverbial Case

Nouns are distinguished from verbs by their relative lack of inflectional morphology. Case, number, gender, etc. are not marked on the noun. Instead they are either absent, marked on the verb, or marked via other means such as particles and independent words.

The main morphological category which nouns do show is the peculiar and wide-ranging adverbial case, which is characterised by metathesis of the noun stem. This post will focus on this adverbial case.

Plain noun-stems tend to be minimally bisyllabic and end in a vowel. Monosyllabic and consonantal noun stems are rare.

tupu /ˈtupu/ 'man, men'
nima /ˈnima/ 'woman, women'
kamua /kaˈmua/ 'food'
kanbu /ˈkambu/ 'door, doors'

The plain noun stem is used when the noun functions as an ordinary subject or direct object.

Sapsin tupu ‘I saw a/the man’
see-PST-1sg man

Sapso tupu nima ‘The man saw the woman’
see-PST-3sg man woman

Kaúnruk kamua ‘You will eat the food’
eat-IRR-2sg food

Before discussing the function of the adverbial case, let’s take a look at how metathesis works. It generally takes the form of a final CVCV > CVVC before the suffix -e is attached. It is unclear how this came about diachronically, or whether it was already present in the parent language, but it has been suggested that a stress shift before the suffix might be responsible.

Examples:
nima > niam > niame
tupu > tuup > tuúpe
kanbu > kaunb > kaúnbe

Not all words have a final CVCV, however. These cases are treated somewhat differently.

If the noun ends in a final -Va, -e is simply attached:
kamua > kamuáe
hakua > hakuáe

If both vowels of final two syllables are /a/, metathesis occurs but with an epenthetic /h/ inserted:
nata > nahate (not *naate)
kanga > kahange (not *kaange)

This likely occurred due to the sequence /a.a/ being disallowed, becoming /aha/.

The adverbial case has a variety of uses. It can be summarily described as making the noun a non-core complement. The exact usage of the case depends on context and the noun in question. Some of its main uses include:

As a locative:
kanga ‘village’ kahange ‘in/at/to the village’

As an instrumental:
kutsa ‘stick’ kuatse ‘with/by a stick’
Hakua Nari ‘Hakuan’ Hakuáe Nari ‘in Hakuan’

As an agentive (with passives):
nima ‘woman’ niame ‘by the woman’

As a temporal:
sira ‘sun’ siare ‘during the day’ (i.e. ‘by the sun’)
nusu ‘moon’ nuúse ‘during the night’ (i.e. ‘by the moon’)

As an indirect object (which is also referenced on the verb). I don't have an example of this form yet, but it would be something like:
give-PST-1sg.NOM-3sg.DAT money man-ADV 'I gave money to the man'

In addition, Hakuan prefers to use the adverbial case for objects which are not directly affected, changed, moved, acted upon in some way.
For example, a sentence such as ‘I speak Hakuan’ would nearly always place ‘Hakuan’ in the adverbial, as one is speaking ‘via the means of’ Hakuan:

Heékuk Hakuáe Nari kahange /heˈekuk hakuˈae ˈnari kaˈhaŋge/
speak-PROG-2sg Speech-ADV Our village-ADV
'You are speaking Hakuan in the village'

Similarly ‘I wore clothing’ would place ‘clothing’ in the adverbial case as the clothing is not direcly affected/changed (consider, e.g. 'I was dressed in clothing).

Tiukusuk tipuáe nuúse /tiuˈkusuk tipuˈae nuˈuse/
wear-PROG-PST-2sg clothing-ADV night-ADV
‘You were wearing clothing at night’

(I will probably add something to do with transitivity and the adverbial case, but not quite sure what yet. Probably something like transitive verbs must directly reference an object, but adverbial objects don't 'count' for this.)

[Creyeditor]

That looks really nice

[this_is_an_account]

I really like this! The initial /m̩/ and the combination of a simple phoneme inventory and complex morphophonology reminds me a lot of Yimas.

[Davush]

That looks really nice

Thanks! Taking this one slowly and without a particular direction in mind is working quite well so far it seems.

I really like this! The initial /m̩/ and the combination of a simple phoneme inventory and complex morphophonology reminds me a lot of Yimas.

Thanks! I didn't begin with Papuan languages in mind, but it certainly seems to be moving in that direction somewhat!

Person Marking

While Hakuan nouns show almost no morphology, the verb is quite highly inflected. Hakuan can be considered to have polypersonal marking, as transitive verbs obligatorily mark both the agent and patient, excluding adverbial/oblique arguments (which often seem quite patient-like), by the use of person-marking suffixes. (Verbs will probably also mark indirect/dative objects but I will consider that in another post.)

Number of the agent and patient is also usually indexed on the verb. Nouns do not have a plural marker per se. This post will only look at singular forms for now.

Person-marking suffixes are bound morphemes which must be attached to a verb. They are nearly always the final element of the verbal complex. The basic constituent order is VSO. This also applies to chains of person-suffixes.

So far we have seen:

1sg -in
2sg -uk

The 1sg is unusual in that, unlike the other person markers, it has a distinct patientive form: -an.
Additionally, the /k/ in -uk tends to elide to /h/ when further suffixes follow it.

Sapsinuk 'I saw you'
Sapsuhan 'You saw me' (Not *saps-uk-in)

The 3rd person singular marker is generally -a or -o. It does not distinguish gender or animacy. -o appears as a pronominal form, whereas -a appears when the argument directly follows the verb:

Takahka tupu puambe
Hit-PROG-3sg man drum-ADV
The man is playing the drums

Takahko puambe 'He/she is playing the drums'

The following table illustrates various combinations (A = agent, P = Patient)

1sgA + 3sgP: -ina
2sgA + 3sgP: -uha
3sgA + 3sgP: -oa

3sgA + 1sgP: -oan
3sgA + 2sgP: -auk

Sapsina tupu 'I saw the man'
Takahsuha psuri 'You hit the cat'
Sapsoa tupu nima 'The man saw the woman'

Takahsoan 'He hit me'
Takahsauk 'She hit you'

However, arguments in the adverbial/oblique case do not 'count' for verb indexing.

Therefore the following sentence does not need a 3sg Patient to be indexed:

Takahkuk puambe
hit-PROG-2sg drum-ADV
'You are playing the drums'

In the forms -ina, -uha, -oa, the final -a of the 3sg becomes -o if the patient is not mentioned:

Takahsina tupu 'I hit the man'
Takahsino 'I hit him'
Takahsoo 'He hit her / She hit him'

[Creyeditor]

I like the general quirkiness of the verbal agreement system. Also, thumbs up for number marking only through polypersonal affixes. I would love to hear more about this. How do you mark plural on obliques for example?

[Davush]

I like the general quirkiness of the verbal agreement system. Also, thumbs up for number marking only through polypersonal affixes. I would love to hear more about this. How do you mark plural on obliques for example?

Thanks! Hopefully this post will give you an idea how plural marking works.

Adjustment to previous post:

Some of the person-marking suffix chains show metathesis when they are not utterance final:

-ino > -ian (1sg-3sg)
-uho > -uak (2sg-3sg)

Sapsian tupu 'I saw a/the man'
Sapsino 'I saw him'

Kaunzuak kamua 'You ate food'
Kaunzuho 'You ate it'

Demonstratives and Plural Marking

As mentioned, nouns show little inflection in Hakuan. The main nominal morphology is metathesis which appears in the oblique case. Demonstratives, however, have quite a wide range of usage, including functioning as 3rd person pronouns. They also mark number and case (core/oblique).

Demonstratives

Core
Sg : Pl
ipa : ipea Proximal 'this'
ira : irea Medial 'that'
heera: herea Distal 'that over there'

Oblique
Sg. : Pl.
yape : epae
yare : erae
heare : harae

As Hakuan noun phrases are strongly head-initial, demonstratives follow the noun they refer to.

Also, if determiners are present, the oblique case is indicated only on the final determiner of the noun phrase.

For example:

Core:
tupu ipa 'this man'
tupu ipea 'these men'

Oblique:
samatu yare 'at/on that mountain'
samatu erae 'at/on those mountains'

As the determiner is in the oblique case, samatu does not appear in the metathesised oblique form samoote.

Plural Marking
The bound 3pl morpheme is -ea.

Sapsinea
see-PST-1sg-3pl
'I saw them'

Takahkusuhea tupu
hit-PROG-PST-2sg-3pl
'You were hitting the men'

It combines thus with other person markers:

1sg-3pl : -inea
2sg-3pl : -uhea
3pl-1sg : -ean
3pl-2sg : -iuk

(I haven't yet decided how -ea will interact with other 3rd person forms, which seems to be the source of a lot of the verbal person marking quirkiness in Hakuan)

If a plural demonstrative is present with a core argument, 3pl person agreement on the verb usually takes the form of the singular:

Takahkusuak tupu irea
Hit-PROG-PST-2sg-3sg man that.PL
'You were hitting those men'

Oblique arguments often do not mark number if it is clear from context. If plural marking is needed, the plural demonstratives can be used.

Tsupsuak simua kundahare
'You poured water into the cup/cups'

Tsupsuak simua kundara erae
'You poured water into the cups'

Demonstratives as Pronouns

The demonstratives also function as 3rd person pronouns. Unlike 1st and 2nd persons whose independent forms may not appear in the post-verbal subject position, demonstratives can fill this slot, particularly when both arguments are 3rd person. This is a disambiguation strategy for things such as:

Sapsoa nima
see-PST-3sg-3sg woman
He saw the woman / The woman saw him

With the demonstrative in the subject slot (reminder that Hakuan is VSO):

Sapsoa ira nima
Can only mean 'He/She saw the woman'

Choice of demonstrative as 3rd person pronoun depends on speaker proximity. If the 3rd person is physically present, ipa is more common. Otherwise ira is used. Heera is rarely used with a 3rd person human referent.

[Khemehekis]

Have you noticed that if you rearrange the letters in "Hakuan" you get "Hanuka"?

Happy Chanukkah to this board, BTW.

[Creyeditor]

The post was definitely an interesting read. I like how nunber is not just a monolithic noun feature. Also the demonstratives nicely "solve" both plural marking on obliques and 3>3 scenarios.

[Davush]

The post was definitely an interesting read. I like how nunber is not just a monolithic noun feature. Also the demonstratives nicely "solve" both plural marking on obliques and 3>3 scenarios.

Thanks! I'm glad someone is enjoying it, and thank you for the thoughtful questions.

More on Plurals and Person Marking

Continuing with Hakuan’s ‘quirky’ system of polypersonal verbal agreement. We have already seen the 1sg and 2sg suffixes:

1sg. S -in
1sg O -an
2sg S/O -uk (-uh- before another suffix)

First and second person plural marking is a little ‘unsymmetrical’. First person plurals distinguish an inclusive and exclusive form, but only in the subject.

The 1pl exclusive suffix is -ari, or -eer- when metathesised:

Sapseeruk (saps-arí-uk > saps-aír-uk > sapseéruk)
‘We saw you’

The inclusive form is indicated by the use of the assosciative plural marker <tu> in the subject slot with usual 1sg agreement. That is to say, it is not incorporated into the verbal complex.

Takarhin tu puambe
play-PST-1sg ASSOC drum-OBL
‘We played the drums’

Saprinea tu nima omuitse
see-IRR-1sg-3pl ASSOC woman stream-OBL
‘We might see the women at the stream’

Similarly, 2pl is also marked by 2sg + tu:

Takarhuk tu puambe
play-PST-2sg ASSOC
‘You (pl.) played the drums’

The forms with tu are only used with subjects. Thus 1pl objects do not mark clusivity. 2nd person objects do not mark number.

Sapsuarhi ‘You saw us’ (saps-uk-ari > saps-uh-ári > saps-uárhi)
Sapseeruk ‘We saw you’ (sg./pl.)

While the 1st person form with tu is considered ‘inclusive’, it could be better considered a “polite” inclusive. People familiar to each other will often use the -ari form, even with an inclusive meaning, when not addressing a large group. Whereas during formal addresses and to bigger groups, the <tu> form is preferred as more explicitly ‘inclusive’ and thus polite:

Sapseera tupu ira omawe
‘We (me and you) saw that man at the river’

Heekin tu Hakawe kanga yape
‘We (INCL) speak Hakuan in this village’

Minrinea tu tanosa sakas epae*
cultivate-IRR-1sg-3pl ASSOC flower field this.pl-OBL
‘We (all) will cultivate flowers in these fields’

*Note: Some nouns, such as saka(s) contain a ‘fleeting S’ which only reappears in the oblique forms, as well as when followed by a vowel-initial demonstrative.

Tu can also function as a ‘regular’ assosciative plural marker, appearing after personal names and the like. It can also appear after demonstratives to indicate a closer relation.

John-tu ‘John and co’
Irea-tu ‘that lot, that family, that group’ (that.pl-ASSOC)

3rd Person Plural Agreement

As seen, the 3pl marker is usually -ea. However, when both arguments are 3rd person, the 3pl has an object form in -t:

sapsoat ‘he saw them’
sapseat ‘they saw them’

It has been hypothesised that this -t might be related to the assosciative plural marker tu.

And a final example sentence....

Mingiseat irea-tu tanosa sandutsi heare
cultivate-IMP-PST-3pl-3pl that.pl-ASSOC flower hill yonder-OBL
‘That lot used to cultivate flowers on the hill over there’

(I will have to post a full table of the person-marker combinations at some point.)

[Creyeditor]

Again interesting
I am not sure yet, if I am fully convinced by the associative-as-inclusive story, but maybe it makes sense because it is an atypical inclusive marker. I feel it somehow makes the hearer an associate of speaker, like starting a sentence with 'between you and me'.

A minor question, maybe you already answered it in an earlier post. Is the aí -> eé change regular phonology or does it only apply in metathesis forms?

Takarhuk tu puambe
play-PST-2sg ASSOC
‘You (pl.) played the drums’

You forgot the percussions in the gloss, right?

[Davush]

Again interesting
I am not sure yet, if I am fully convinced by the associative-as-inclusive story, but maybe it makes sense because it is an atypical inclusive marker. I feel it somehow makes the hearer an associate of speaker, like starting a sentence with 'between you and me'.

A minor question, maybe you already answered it in an earlier post. Is the aí -> eé change regular phonology or does it only apply in metathesis forms?

Takarhuk tu puambe
play-PST-2sg ASSOC
‘You (pl.) played the drums’

You forgot the percussions in the gloss, right?

I am also not convinced myself... I had been reading about Ainu, and was inspired by the "4th person" which seems to function as 1pl and 2pl, depending.

I suppose the assosciative marker could just be considered a quantifier meaning "all", but takes singular agreement, so see-1sg all = 'We all see'. This isn't exactly what I had in mind, though, as then it is really just a quantifier and you could also have e.g. see-1sg two 'Both of us see'. Allowing <tu> only in the subject slot also seems a bit too arbitrary. I want to do something interesting with the 1pl and 2pl forms, though. Some options...

a) conflate them? (at least for verbal agreement purposes)
b) have some kind of plural marker on the verb, but perhaps it occurs before TAM marking?
c) have singular only marking with a kind of 'dummy' pronoun indicating plurality? (this was the original idea with tu but in its current state doesn't work too well).

(Also yes, sorry, that gloss was wrong, it should be 'hit-PST-2sg ASSOC drum')

aí > eé is a regular change, although most vowels in hiatus occur due to metathesis anyway, so there aren't many roots with such vowel sequences.

[Creyeditor]

I am also not convinced myself... I had been reading about Ainu, and was inspired by the "4th person" which seems to function as 1pl and 2pl, depending.

I suppose the assosciative marker could just be considered a quantifier meaning "all", but takes singular agreement, so see-1sg all = 'We all see'. This isn't exactly what I had in mind, though, as then it is really just a quantifier and you could also have e.g. see-1sg two 'Both of us see'. Allowing <tu> only in the subject slot also seems a bit too arbitrary. I want to do something interesting with the 1pl and 2pl forms, though.

Actually, if it is a quantifier that makes a lot of sense. It could very well be that it is the only quantifier allowed in that position. Or it could be a phonological reduced version of the quantifier. In (some varieties of) English you can say y'all but not y'eight or y'each, so some restrictions are natural. I also think that using 'all' is intuitively plausible as an inclusivity marker AND as an associative plural marker. So my suggestion: only add the fact that tu is also (a phonologically reduced form of) the quantifier 'all'.

Coming back to my 'between you and me' example, this would mean you now introduce a fact with 'we all know that' which fits much better, IMHO.