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How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 12:46
by Raginaharjaz
We have a Romance conlang that is like Polish and one that resembles Icelandic

How about one that is like Spanish? One with open syllabes and fewer consoant clusters,?

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 13:07
by Creyeditor
Something feels strange here ...

A germlang that looks like Spanish s like something that has been attempted before, probably derived from Gothic.

Also, which romlang is Icelandic-like again?

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 13:14
by elemtilas
Raginaharjaz wrote: 23 Feb 2021 12:46 We have a Romance conlang that is like Polish and one that receives Icelandic

How about one that is like Spanish? One with open syllabes and fewer consoant clusters,?
One simple solution is to follow the Basic Romance Language Recipe. This recipe takes Latin (usually something akin to Vulgar Latin) and runs it through sets of diachronically (tine in history) pre-determined sound changes. The result reduces or eliminates or rearranges nominal & verbal morphology. In the real world, you can see the process easily in the sound changes that have happened in French or Spanish or Rumantsch.

E.g., start with Lat. lupus, erode the nominal ending > lupu, soften the intervocalic stop > lubu, and lower the vowels lobo, add which ever definite article you've determined to use and you end up with yz lovo, the wolf.

You can similarly start with Primitive Germanic, which is still full and rich like Latin, and use the Romance recipe. Starting with wulfaz, you can run it through the works: wulfaz > wulfa > wolfa and end up with þa wolfa, the wolf.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 13:19
by Creyeditor
Or <za guolfa>/<za bolfa> in pseudo-Spanish Orthography.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 13:20
by Raginaharjaz
Creyeditor wrote: 23 Feb 2021 13:07 Something feels strange here ...

A germlang that looks like Spanish s like something that has been attempted before, probably derived from Gothic.

Also, which romlang is Icelandic-like again?
Þrjótrunn:
Patir nostir, tú tög er í kjal,
Settiþikist tú næminn.
Vin tú rægn.
sjá þátt tvo oltir, kæsig í tjarr tög í kjöl.
Dá næfur höði nostur köttiðun pán.
Perdóttu næfur nostur défit tög eð nær perdóðmur nöstir dæftrifur.
Ídúk nær né í tjattatjón, már lifir nær á möld.
Kvor tví ert rægnsu, potirsu eð glærsa hákur eð itinmett.

It is derived from Latin of 1st century AD and possesses several characteristics that other Romance languages do not.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 14:23
by Creyeditor
Ah yes, I actually read about it once.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 15:03
by elemtilas
Raginaharjaz wrote: 23 Feb 2021 13:20 Þrjótrunn:
Patir nostir, tú tög er í kjal,
Settiþikist tú næminn.
Vin tú rægn.
sjá þátt tvo oltir, kæsig í tjarr tög í kjöl.
Dá næfur höði nostur köttiðun pán.
Perdóttu næfur nostur défit tög eð nær perdóðmur nöstir dæftrifur.
Ídúk nær né í tjattatjón, már lifir nær á möld.
Kvor tví ert rægnsu, potirsu eð glærsa hákur eð itinmett.
One of the hoary ancients, that one!

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 17:17
by Porphyrogenitos
A bit of Hispanicized Gothic:

hodo 'foot' / hodus 'feet'
brute 'bride' / brutes 'brides'
suestre 'sister' / suestros 'sisters'
brotre 'brother' / brotros 'brothers'
veuvierna 'orphan' / veuviernas 'orphans'
aba 'husband' / abas 'husbands'
houte 'head' / houtas 'heads'
cesare 'emperor' / cesaras 'emperors'
cindín 'governor' / cindinas 'governors'
Crece 'Greek' / Crecas 'Greeks'
cone 'family' / coñas 'families'
nío 'knee' / niva 'knees'

Although if it was really like Spanish, the plurals would be almost completely regularized, and the neuter would merge into the masculine.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 19:06
by Salmoneus
I would try to have sound changes that resulted in a phonology and phonotactics more like that of Spanish.

Hadre vostra, u est en so cielo,
Santificada sie cin nomen,
aqueme cin rigia,
abruda cin voluntad,
su'en es migiarda su'en so cielo
gebe a vos en es da vostra llagia adáliga
de sua horgebe a vos ofensas vostras
sua vocas horgeban a ceis u vos ofensan
de no vos diede hállaña en horsuégoño
gen vos aluse ve uvia
Amén


This is obviously just off the top of my head, and no doubt you could do better if you put some actual thought into it. [and yes, I borrowed four words, while a fifth is either borrowed or a native word irregularly altered due to adstrate influence]


EDIT: see, the problem with things like this is that now I want to actually develop that conlang. But I don't even have enough time/attention for my existing germlang!

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 20:50
by Raginaharjaz
Is this a good noob guess of how names may look like in a such conlang
Haimariks - Henrico, Enrico
Wiljahelmaz - Wilelmo/Wilermo
Harjawaldaz - Harvaldo, Haraldo
Raginaharjaz - Ragnaro, Rainero
Sigiwarduz - Sigvardo, Sivardo(?)

These are without any regular sound changes.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 22:56
by elemtilas
Raginaharjaz wrote: 23 Feb 2021 20:50 Is this a good noob guess of how names may look like in a such conlang
Haimariks - Henrico, Enrico
Wiljahelmaz - Wilelmo/Wilermo
Harjawaldaz - Harvaldo, Haraldo
Raginaharjaz - Ragnaro, Rainero
Sigiwarduz - Sigvardo, Sivardo(?)

These are without any regular sound changes.
They look good to me. Folks (particularly from Latin America), I've noticed over the last few decades, have been using some pretty strongly Germanic names. Some of them weirdly mangled. These would fit right in, as they appear a little more than slightly Hispanicised.

For your neverending perusal, check out the list of Spanish words of Germanic origin.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 23 Feb 2021 23:26
by Porphyrogenitos
Raginaharjaz wrote: 23 Feb 2021 20:50 Is this a good noob guess of how names may look like in a such conlang
Haimariks - Henrico, Enrico
Wiljahelmaz - Wilelmo/Wilermo
Harjawaldaz - Harvaldo, Haraldo
Raginaharjaz - Ragnaro, Rainero
Sigiwarduz - Sigvardo, Sivardo(?)

These are without any regular sound changes.
My attempt at the regular sound changes. I'm using the accusative form of each name - I'll make versions for initial /w/ getting borrowed as Classical /w/ (Late Latin /β/) and initial /w/ getting borrowed as Latin /g/. I'm also assuming the names are re-stressed to fit a Latin stress pattern.

Haimariks - Hembrico (or perhaps Hendrico, or even Henrico, though that's less regular)
Wiljahelmaz - Villerma/Villermo or Guillerma/Guillermo (just like the actual Spanish name)
Harjawaldaz - Herualda/Herualdo (or perhaps with loss of /w/ - Heralda/Heraldo)
Raginaharjaz - Renera/Renero (or perhaps Rainera/Rainero)
Sigiwarduz - Sevardo

The alternate forms ending in -o assume analogical change to reflect the Spanish masculine ending.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 24 Feb 2021 00:00
by Salmoneus
Raginaharjaz wrote: 23 Feb 2021 20:50 Is this a good noob guess of how names may look like in a such conlang
Haimariks - Henrico, Enrico
Wiljahelmaz - Wilelmo/Wilermo
Harjawaldaz - Harvaldo, Haraldo
Raginaharjaz - Ragnaro, Rainero
Sigiwarduz - Sigvardo, Sivardo(?)

These are without any regular sound changes.
*shrugs*
They could be anything you want them to be. There's no right or wrong. [although, for example, if you want it to really look Spanish, don't have 'W' in the spelling!]

In actual Spanish, those names are Enrique, Guillermo and Sigivardo (though I wonder if that's a later re-borrowing, since I'd have thought 'Sivardo' would make more sense), and the other two should probably be (I don't have the sound changes to hand, but just by analogy with other surviving names) Araldo and Reinério. [I don't know why it's Enrique, though, not Enrico?]

But a Spanish-looking conlang doesn't have to be identical to Spanish, of course.

In my off-the-top-of-my-head conlang from my last post, these would probably be:
Einaric
Villerma
Eravalda
Rainéria
Sibardo

But of course this is just one approach...

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 24 Feb 2021 14:44
by Salmoneus
If you wanted a more robust, step-by-step, historically-supported conlang, there's obviously a lot of variables you can alter, but I think the big systematic decision is around the presence and timing of the two, opposite, changes to the stop system.

I kind of assumed, above, that you'd be dealing with a West Germanic language, because that's more recognisable and easier to work with. Historically, this would mean Suebian. The alternative would be East Germanic Visigothic; given that Visigoths occupied most of the peninsular, this makes more sense, really. However, I don't know much about Gothic, so I'm leaving that option aside.

If you go with Suebian, the Suebi are generally assumed to be from the same group that gave us High German - although they may well have been a mixture of tribes, so anything's possible really. But this gives us intriguing possibilities, because this gives us two opposing shifts...

The (surviving) Iberian Romance languages are distinguished by the chain shift of lenition: /t/ > /d/ > /D/.
But the surviving Irminonic Germanic languages are distinguished by the chain shift of the high german consonant shift: /D/ > /d/ > /t/

So by altering which of these they undergo, and how the stages interract, you can get quite different outcomes. To contrast the extreme forms, you might have;

lenition only ((almost) the language I posted before):
Spoiler:
Hare vostra, u est en so cielo,
Santificada sie cin nomen,
aqueme cin rigia,
abruda cin voluntad,
su'en es migiarda su'en so cielo
gebe a vos en es da vostra llagia adáliga
de sua horgebe a vos ofensas vostras
sua vocas horgeban a ceis u vos ofensan
de no vos diede hállaña en horsuégoño
gen vos aluse ve uvia
Amén
fortition only:
Spoiler:
Hadre vostra, u est en so cielo,
Santificada sie din nomen,
achueme din rischa,
abrutza din voluntad,
su'en es mitigiarta su'en so cielo
cebe a vos en es ta vostra lleiba atálicha
de sua horcebe a vos ofensas vostras
sua vodas horceban a deis u vos ofensan
de no vos tietze hállaña en horsuéchoño
hen vos aluse ve ubia
Amén
But of course you could mix and match. You could have only the first stage of fortition (intervocalic and final voiceless stops), for instance.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 24 Feb 2021 19:32
by elemtilas
Salmoneus wrote: 24 Feb 2021 00:00 In actual Spanish, those names are Enrique, Guillermo and Sigivardo (though I wonder if that's a later re-borrowing, since I'd have thought 'Sivardo' would make more sense), and the other two should probably be (I don't have the sound changes to hand, but just by analogy with other surviving names) Araldo and Reinério. [I don't know why it's Enrique, though, not Enrico?]
It's derived from Latin Henricianus, from what I've found. Interestingly enough, Henrico is an (exceedingly rare) English name. One of the oldest British settlements in Virginia is Henrico. Named for Henry the Prince of Wales at the time, via Latin Henricus.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 24 Feb 2021 20:26
by Omzinesý
I once realized that Germanic and Romance languages have very similar variation in *kt

English and French elide *k nuit, night
Swedish and Italian merge *k with *t notte, natt
German and Sardinian lenite *k to x [noxt] (or something), Nacht
But where is Germanic Spanish that makes them an affricate?

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 26 Feb 2021 00:11
by Zé do Rock
Aua papá de es in de himel,
Day name chal bi santificado,
Day royado chal come,
Day volo chal geché
So in el erde as in de himel.
Givos aua deyale bred
Pardon aua detos
as vi pardon aua detores.
I no conducos in tentación,
aba librizos fon el evil.
Fordi day es de royado, de pover i de gloria.
Amen

Only 'el' doesnt exist in any germanic language. All the other words exist, either the same word or a word with the same root. 24 consonants not followed by vowels, in espanish they would be 44...

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 26 Feb 2021 20:52
by Ælfwine
Creyeditor wrote: 23 Feb 2021 13:07 Something feels strange here ...

A germlang that looks like Spanish s like something that has been attempted before, probably derived from Gothic.
Shimo's Visigothic fits the bill

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 26 Feb 2021 22:34
by Creyeditor
Ah, I knew it was by someone on this board.

Re: How would you go about creating a Germanic conlang that is Spanish like?

Posted: 01 Mar 2021 01:33
by shimobaatar
Ælfwine wrote: 26 Feb 2021 20:52
Creyeditor wrote: 23 Feb 2021 13:07 Something feels strange here ...

A germlang that looks like Spanish s like something that has been attempted before, probably derived from Gothic.
Shimo's Visigothic fits the bill
Creyeditor wrote: 26 Feb 2021 22:34 Ah, I knew it was by someone on this board.
Oh, yeah… that. [:S] It was essentially my attempt at using the Brithenig-style/"bogolang" approach to create a descendant of Gothic spoken in Spain, back in the summer of 2016. No disrespect to anyone who likes doing things that way, but I eventually realized I'd never be personally satisfied with the results. I've actually been considering trying to redo it in a way that makes some sense - I might have used it for Lexember 2020 if I'd given myself more time to "prepare" - but it's not currently a top priority for me.