False cognates

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3056
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov »

Salmoneus wrote: 12 Aug 2020 13:34 [indeed, apparently this is theorised for Latin, explaining why it uses /s/ in borrowings from Hebrew: shabat>sabbath, jeshua > jesus.]

I thought that was because Latin and Greek did not have post-alveolar sounds, so the closest to the Hebrew post-alveolar sibalant was /s/.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
GrandPiano
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2097
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano »

Salmoneus wrote: 12 Aug 2020 13:34...can you really rule out cases of similarity only due to later sound changes, when those soundchanges are themselves common, or areally common?
Okay, that's also a good point, but it just occurred to me that there's another argument against a connection between aurum and urre via a non-Italic IE language: the word aurum seems to be specific to Italic. According to Wiktionary, aurum comes from PIE *h₂é-h₂us-o-m, which it doesn't list as having any descendants outside of Italic. *h₂é-h₂us-o-m is derived from the root *h₂ews- "dawn, east". Now, is it possible that an ancient non-Italic IE language also had a word derived from that root that underwent the same semantic shift to "gold" and underwent sound changes to become something resembling urre (or rather urhe, since that seems to be the form of the word in dialects of Basque that retain /h/)? Sure, but it seems fairly unlikely to me (apparently Proto-Tocharian also got its word for "gold" from that root, but the word looks nothing like urhe). I think it's fair to consider them false cognates as long as there's no clear reason to believe that they're cognates?
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 3056
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 04:06

Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov »

Nederlands & :eng: <pin> :deu: <Pinn> :de-nw: <pinn> "Pin" VS. Mishnaic :isr: /pijn/ "Pin tumbler lock"
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
k1234567890y
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2309
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y »

English fire v.s. Thai ไฟ /fāj/ "fire"
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
User avatar
Aevas
admin
admin
Posts: 1428
Joined: 11 May 2010 05:46
Location: ꜱᴇ

Re: False cognates

Post by Aevas »

Finnish sitten
Swedish sedan

both meaning 'then, subsequently'
User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1075
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen »

Aevas wrote: 30 Sep 2020 10:41 Finnish sitten
Swedish sedan

both meaning 'then, subsequently'
Also 'ago'... Which, come to think of it, makes the set of meanings kind of suspiciously specific. This is one of those cases where I'm quite sure that one of the words has influenced the other (ie. Swedish has influenced Finnish, most likely), even if the actual phonological form isn't directly borrowed. Not that phonological similarity would always be even needed for such influence to take place, I guess.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 5698
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: False cognates

Post by eldin raigmore »

Aevas wrote: 30 Sep 2020 10:41 Finnish sitten
Swedish sedan

both meaning 'then, subsequently'
How would you say
This:
https://youtu.be/wyPKRcBTsFQ
In either Finnish or Swedish?
User avatar
k1234567890y
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2309
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y »

English gas v.s. Finnish kaasu

they sound really similar lol but the English word is from Dutch gas, which in turn is possibly from Ancient Greek χάος (kháos, “chasm, void, empty space”); while the Finnish word is from a Sami language, ultimately from Proto-Uralic *käsä (“dew”)
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
Post Reply