False cognates
False cognates
False cognates are words in the same or different language(s) that are similar in form and meaning but have different sources.
Post your favorite ones here:
Welsh and Hebrew have the same feminine singular third person pronoun: [hi].
Post your favorite ones here:
Welsh and Hebrew have the same feminine singular third person pronoun: [hi].
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
-JRR Tolkien
Re: False cognates
In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
![Italy :ita:](./images/smilies/icon_ita.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
![:D [:D]](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin2.png)
![France :fra:](./images/smilies/icon_fra.gif)
![Spain :esp:](./images/smilies/icon_esp.gif)
![Russia :rus:](./images/smilies/icon_rus.gif)
![:) [:)]](./images/smilies/icon_smile2.png)
![Conlang :con:](./images/smilies/icon_con.gif)
Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...
Re: False cognates
These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
Re: False cognates
Here are a few I remember:
"de" and :zho: "de" (both mean "of")
"bad" and :hye: "vad"
"day" and
"día"
"hair" and :hye: "her"
"theos" and Nahuatl "teotl" (both mean "god")
"duo" and :zho: "dui" (two)
"kephale" and
"kepala" (head)
But the most impressive one is probably:
have and
habeo
"Have" is actually cognate with Latin "capio" (I take), while "habeo" is cognate with English "give"!
![Spain :esp:](./images/smilies/icon_esp.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
![Spain :esp:](./images/smilies/icon_esp.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
![Ancient Greek :grc:](./images/smilies/greekredf.gif)
![Ancient Greek :grc:](./images/smilies/greekredf.gif)
![Ancient Greek :grc:](./images/smilies/greekredf.gif)
![India :ind:](./images/smilies/icon_ind.gif)
But the most impressive one is probably:
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
![Latin :lat:](./images/smilies/icon_lat.gif)
"Have" is actually cognate with Latin "capio" (I take), while "habeo" is cognate with English "give"!
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
Re: False cognates
Well, relatively recently I thought of
:heb: צד [sˤad] (side)
side
I don't really remember many offhand, but I have noticed plenty of words in Classical Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic which are similar to some of some other languages I know, like English. And, every so often, I can wonder if it perhaps got into IE through Greek or Latin borrowings, though I realize that that is pretty unlikely.
:heb: צד [sˤad] (side)
![United States :usa:](./images/smilies/icon_usa.gif)
I don't really remember many offhand, but I have noticed plenty of words in Classical Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic which are similar to some of some other languages I know, like English. And, every so often, I can wonder if it perhaps got into IE through Greek or Latin borrowings, though I realize that that is pretty unlikely.
Skribajon mean vi esas lektant, kar amiki.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
Re: False cognates
They are far apart from each other, however. Apart from that, there is no other correspondance between these languages.Click wrote:These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
![Italy :ita:](./images/smilies/icon_ita.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
![:D [:D]](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin2.png)
![France :fra:](./images/smilies/icon_fra.gif)
![Spain :esp:](./images/smilies/icon_esp.gif)
![Russia :rus:](./images/smilies/icon_rus.gif)
![:) [:)]](./images/smilies/icon_smile2.png)
![Conlang :con:](./images/smilies/icon_con.gif)
Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...
Re: False cognates
Also a similar thing found in Aramaic, the prefix "ד" /di/ (which I think comes from the word "די" which means the same, and also seems to be used as the conjunction "that", but "די" seems to be used in later Judaeo-Aramaic mostly as the conjunction, leaving the prefix "ד" for possession.) (the vowel is sometimes reduced to a very short /e/-like sound), which I suppose means the Genitive, as in (right-to-left): "ארעא דכנען" The land דCana`an (of Cana`an). Seeing as Semitic langs are not IE, I suppose this is probably not cognate (though that's a pretty cool coincidence, eh?).atman wrote:Here are a few I remember:
"de" and :zho: "de" (both mean "of")
Skribajon mean vi esas lektant, kar amiki.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
Re: False cognates
So what? That doesn't show that 'tu' and 'tū' aren't cognates.Alessio wrote:They are far apart from each other, however. Apart from that, there is no other correspondance between these languages.Click wrote:These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
Re: False cognates
The textbook example is perhaps dog in Mbabaram and English. Among short, monosyllabic function words, one would not be surprised to find accidental similarities - like le, masculine definite article in French, and definite/specific article in Samoan. Or ya (Malay/Indonesian) and ja (various germanic languages) for "yes".
Re: False cognates
... and possibly comanche!Xing wrote:[...]Or ya (Malay/Indonesian) and ja (various germanic languages) for "yes".
I kill threads!
Re: False cognates
Just to add to this, Hebrew 2SG pronouns are /ʔat'tɔ/ when referring to a male, and /ʔat/ when referring to a female. /ʔat/ (sometimes /ʔant/) is also the Judaeo-Aramaic 2SG, although I think it may be gender-neutral there.Click wrote:These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
Skribajon mean vi esas lektant, kar amiki.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
Re: False cognates
Also, in Japanese it's /anata/nzk13 wrote:Just to add to this, Hebrew 2SG pronouns are /ʔat'tɔ/ when referring to a male, and /ʔat/ when referring to a female. /ʔat/ (sometimes /ʔant/) is also the Judaeo-Aramaic 2SG, although I think it may be gender-neutral there.Click wrote:These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
-JRR Tolkien
Re: False cognates
None of these look like obvious cognates of the IE tu, though, or at least I'm not seeing it... The resemblance between /ʔant/ and /anata/ is there, I'll admit, but nonetheless, I wouldn't start reconstructing Proto-Japono-Semitic just yet.Shemtov wrote:Also, in Japanese it's /anata/nzk13 wrote:Just to add to this, Hebrew 2SG pronouns are /ʔat'tɔ/ when referring to a male, and /ʔat/ when referring to a female. /ʔat/ (sometimes /ʔant/) is also the Judaeo-Aramaic 2SG, although I think it may be gender-neutral there.Click wrote:These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
![:) [:)]](./images/smilies/icon_smile2.png)
However, first-person pronouns beginning with /m/ and second-person pronouns with /t/ or a similar sound actually does occur in a surprising number of language families; see here, for instance. This has been explained variously as some form of sound symbolism, an indication that the families are actually distantly related, or even as relics from Proto-World. Or, you know, coincidence. There's probably no way to prove any of these hypotheses, but it's a nice little factoid to be aware of, I guess.
Re: False cognates
/anata/ for "you" is not etymologically a pronoun. Modern Japanese has all but lost its pronoun system (/anata/ is originally a noun a.nata meaning "the one over there", Early Modern Japanese even had /konata/ /sonata/ for "me" "you", the word /kanata/ 彼方 still exists) and the original pronouns as far as is attested are wa/ware for the first person and na/nare for the second person. Note that Old Japanese does have true pronouns: wa/ware is declined irregularly (thus differently from nouns) and is not further analyzable.
Fluent:
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
Intermediate:![Japan :jpn:](./images/smilies/icon_nip.gif)
![China (PRC) :chn:](./images/smilies/icon_zhe.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
Intermediate:
![Japan :jpn:](./images/smilies/icon_nip.gif)
Re: False cognates
In most Amerind the first person pronoun has /n/ in it, which gives some weight to the theory that they are one family.Xonen wrote:None of these look like obvious cognates of the IE tu, though, or at least I'm not seeing it... The resemblance between /ʔant/ and /anata/ is there, I'll admit, but nonetheless, I wouldn't start reconstructing Proto-Japano-Semitic just yet.Shemtov wrote:Also, in Japanese it's /anata/nzk13 wrote:Just to add to this, Hebrew 2SG pronouns are /ʔat'tɔ/ when referring to a male, and /ʔat/ when referring to a female. /ʔat/ (sometimes /ʔant/) is also the Judaeo-Aramaic 2SG, although I think it may be gender-neutral there.Click wrote:These are real cognates because Hindi is also Indo-European.Alessio wrote:In Italian and French the 2sg personal pronoun is "tu". In Hindi it is "tū".
However, first-person pronouns beginning with /m/ and second-person pronouns with /t/ or a similar sound actually does occur in a surprising number of language families; see here, for instance. This has been explained variously as some form of sound symbolism, an indication that the families are actually distantly related, or even as relics from Proto-World. Or, you know, coincidence. There's probably no way to prove any of these hypotheses, but it's a nice little factoid to be aware of, I guess.
Interestingly enough, this is also true for the Semitic and other so-called members of the Afro-Asiatic family, Basque, and some Caucasian languages, like Lak.
Again, it's not enough to reconstruct proto-Amerind-Cacauso-Vasconic-Asiatic, but it's interesting.
Note that based on the Medieval work The Travels of Benjamin there was a belief that the people of the Caucasus had a connection to a Semitic-speaking people known as the Gargishites.
However, it does lend some weight to the theory Baque is part of the proposed Dené–Caucasian family.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
-JRR Tolkien
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Re: False cognates
The <de> you used here for Chinese isn't really much of a false cognate. Although one of the functions of <de / 的> is on the surface somewhat similar to the Spanish <de>, the pronunciation isn't close, and the grammatical functions are nowhere near close. Aside from sometimes marking possession, the <de / 的> particle is used with adjectives as well, among other functions. Likewise, it is not the only particle that is rendered in Pinyin as <de>, and the other two <de> particles don't even come close to the Spanish.atman wrote:Here are a few I remember:
"de" and :zho: "de" (both mean "of")
"duo" and :zho: "dui" (two)
Also, <dui> is not Chinese for two. <er / 二> is the numeral two, and <liang / 两> is used for counters. I am not sure where you got <dui> as two for Chinese, but your source was a little off.
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Re: False cognates
Here's my theory.Xonen wrote: However, first-person pronouns beginning with /m/ and second-person pronouns with /t/ or a similar sound actually does occur in a surprising number of language families; see here, for instance. This has been explained variously as some form of sound symbolism, an indication that the families are actually distantly related, or even as relics from Proto-World. Or, you know, coincidence. There's probably no way to prove any of these hypotheses, but it's a nice little factoid to be aware of, I guess.
I read an article on why "mama" and "tata"/"dada" exist in so many unrelated languages. Mothers hear their babies playing with sounds and think that "mama", the first sounds babies typically play with, refers to them. "Dada"/"tata" comes second, and the parents assume the child is trying to address or refer to his/her father. All around the world, parents have listened to their children babbling, experimenting with the first two consonants they can say, and made these into words.
If /m/ is a typical first consonant and /t/ a typical second consonant, speakers all around the world would think /m/ the most natural sound for a first-person pronoun and /t/ the most natural sound for a second-person pronoun.
What do you think?
♂♥♂♀
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Re: False cognates
Also interesting is the tendency of Japanese to associate nasal sounds with subjective feelings (compare さみしい /samisii/ and さびしい /sabisii/, both describing "lonely" but the first can only be used for the emotional sense); this may be cross-language. /m/ sounds personal and /t/ sounds distant for some reason.Khemehekis wrote: Here's my theory.
I read an article on why "mama" and "tata"/"dada" exist in so many unrelated languages. Mothers hear their babies playing with sounds and think that "mama", the first sounds babies typically play with, refers to them. "Dada"/"tata" comes second, and the parents assume the child is trying to address or refer to his/her father. All around the world, parents have listened to their children babbling, experimenting with the first two consonants they can say, and made these into words.
If /m/ is a typical first consonant and /t/ a typical second consonant, speakers all around the world would think /m/ the most natural sound for a first-person pronoun and /t/ the most natural sound for a second-person pronoun.
What do you think?
Fluent:
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
Intermediate:![Japan :jpn:](./images/smilies/icon_nip.gif)
![China (PRC) :chn:](./images/smilies/icon_zhe.gif)
![England :eng:](./images/smilies/icon_eng.gif)
Intermediate:
![Japan :jpn:](./images/smilies/icon_nip.gif)
Re: False cognates
Oh, there's a simple explanation for that: I don't speak a word of ChineseThakowsaizmu wrote: Also, <dui> is not Chinese for two. <er / 二> is the numeral two, and <liang / 两> is used for counters. I am not sure where you got <dui> as two for Chinese, but your source was a little off.
![:'( [:'(]](./images/smilies/icon_crying2.png)
And if "er" is the numeral two, I have another bogus IE etymology: Classical :hye: "erku".
Note to the curious reader: Classical Armenian "erku" is a 100% regular reflex of PIE *dwóh₁. Yes, Armenian regularly changed PIE/Proto Graeco-Armenian *dw into (e)rk, among countless other crazy sound shifts.
I think your theory isn't bad, but the problem with the m/t pattern is that it's found in most language families in Northern Eurasia, and in few other families in the rest of the world. So we'd want a better, more systematic explanation.Khemehekis wrote:Here's my theory.Xonen wrote: However, first-person pronouns beginning with /m/ and second-person pronouns with /t/ or a similar sound actually does occur in a surprising number of language families; see here, for instance. This has been explained variously as some form of sound symbolism, an indication that the families are actually distantly related, or even as relics from Proto-World. Or, you know, coincidence. There's probably no way to prove any of these hypotheses, but it's a nice little factoid to be aware of, I guess.
I read an article on why "mama" and "tata"/"dada" exist in so many unrelated languages. Mothers hear their babies playing with sounds and think that "mama", the first sounds babies typically play with, refers to them. "Dada"/"tata" comes second, and the parents assume the child is trying to address or refer to his/her father. All around the world, parents have listened to their children babbling, experimenting with the first two consonants they can say, and made these into words.
If /m/ is a typical first consonant and /t/ a typical second consonant, speakers all around the world would think /m/ the most natural sound for a first-person pronoun and /t/ the most natural sound for a second-person pronoun.
What do you think?
IMO the most likely scenario (bearing in mind that personal pronouns are frequently borrowed across different language families, especially during periods of extensive contact) is that the m/t pattern pronouns were simply diffused across the Eurasian steppe in prehistoric times.
Therefore, it's interesting to note in the WALS map that the only featured North Eurasian language without m/t pronouns is Ket, a Yeniseian language. According to well-received recent research, Yeniseian languages are spoken by peoples who migrated to North America and then came back to Eurasia. Did Ket "fail" to conform to the m/t trend because its speakers were "on vacation" in North America when this sprachbund was active?
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
Re: False cognates
That doesn't disqualify it from being a false cognate of pronouns in another language, though. After all, the whole point of a false cognate is that it only looks like a cognate if you don't know its actual history.Ithisa wrote:/anata/ for "you" is not etymologically a pronoun.
![;) [;)]](./images/smilies/icon_wink2.png)
I think you may be assigning too much value to the terms "first" and "second" here. AFAIU, the reasons for them are purely historical (i.e. what order some ancient grammarians just happened to start listing pronouns in), rather than having anything to do with what order children acquiring language start using pronouns in. Also, I seem to recall reading somewhere that mastering pronouns tends to happen rather late in the language acquisition process, so presumably it shouldn't depend on the order of acquiring phonemes (since that should mostly have happened by then). My knowledge on this subject is a bit sketchy, though, so if someone can find a good source that contradicts me, feel free to present it.Khemehekis wrote:If /m/ is a typical first consonant and /t/ a typical second consonant, speakers all around the world would think /m/ the most natural sound for a first-person pronoun and /t/ the most natural sound for a second-person pronoun.
![:) [:)]](./images/smilies/icon_smile2.png)
EDIT: Well, I did some (more) googling, and found this:
So it would appear that children do start using first-person pronouns first, but it's still at an age where they should certainly have mastered more consonants than just /m/.Unlike many areas of language acquisition, the specific order of pronoun development has been studied extensively (Owens, 1996). Much of the research suggests that pronoun development is variable, although there is some agreement on basic pronouns, such as I, it, and you. (Chiat, 1986). According to Roseberry-McKibben and Hegde, normally developing children begin using first pronouns, such as “I” and “me” at 2-3 years of age, “you,” “they,” “us,” and “them” at 3-4 years of age, most pronouns, including possessives by 4-5 years of age, and all pronouns by 5-6 years of age (Roseberry-McKibben and Hegde, 2000).
Yeah, that's essentially the sound symbolism hypothesis. One explanation I've seen is that pronouncing /m/ causes you to purse your lips kind of inward while /t/ includes launching air forwards from the tip of your tongue... But again, whether or not some ancient population of humans would have been on some level aware of this enough to base (what eventually became) their pronouns on it is just not a question we can answer.Ithisa wrote:/m/ sounds personal and /t/ sounds distant for some reason.