Languages with interesting phonotactics

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k1234567890y
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by k1234567890y »

Zekoslav wrote: 05 Oct 2019 10:01
Allowing /s/ + stop clusters to begin a syllable is actually one of Indo-European peculiarities, since these clusters also go against the sonority hierarchy. In that context Western Romance languages which put a vowel before these clusters are actually making things more normal!
lol sounds interesting, thanks for telling (:
Ser wrote: 04 Oct 2019 23:46
k1234567890y wrote: 04 Oct 2019 17:36In Old Church Slavonic, all syllables must end in a vowel, while there are consonant clusters. So words like kostь "bone(nom.sg)" is rendered as ko-stь instead of kos-tь
Well, lots of languages are also commonly analyzed with their [st] medial clusters analyzed as onsets, because they allow initial st-, e.g. this is how Italian is usually analyzed. The fun thing about Old Church Slavonic is that even clusters with consonants of the same MOA like [gd] or that go against the sonority hierarchy like [ʒd] as in къгда kŭgda 'when' and дъждь dŭždĭ 'rain' are best analyzed as [kʊ.gda] and [dʊ.ʒdɪ].

This gives Old Church Slavonic a very odd character with mostly CCV and CV syllables, plus the occasional CCCV syllable (where the last C is a [v] or [j] glide):

нѣколико [næ.ko.li.ko] 'some'
срьдьце [srɪ.dɪ.tse] 'heart'
оучител҄ь [u.tʃi.te.lʲɪ] 'teacher'
дльгъ [dlɪ.gʊ] 'long'
чловѣкъ [tʃlo.væ.kʊ] 'person'
оударити [u.da.ri.ti] 'to hit'
хвостъ [xvo.stʊ] 'tail'
хлѣбъ [xlæ.bʊ] 'bread'
женихъ [ʒe.ni.xʊ] '(bride)groom'
стоуденъ [stu.de.nʊ] 'cold'
змиꙗ [zmi.ja] 'snake'
гвоздь [gvo.zdɪ] 'nail (to build things with)'
костьѭ [ko.stɪ.jõ] 'with a/the bone'
гоубител҄ьство [gu.bi.te.lʲɪ.stvo] 'destruction'
землꙗ [ze.mlja] 'soil'
you are right, thanks for telling (:
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Nortaneous »

Zekoslav wrote: 05 Oct 2019 10:01 Allowing /s/ + stop clusters to begin a syllable is actually one of Indo-European peculiarities, since these clusters also go against the sonority hierarchy. In that context Western Romance languages which put a vowel before these clusters are actually making things more normal!
It's not that weird -- in many languages in the Tibetic linguistic area, for example, every cluster that isn't of the form CR violates the sonority hierarchy! Typically you have (sonority-violating) FC NC and (sonority-compliant) CR, e.g. /sp- mp- pr-/, but you don't have (sonority-compliant) PF PN FN etc.

My guess is that there are more languages that allow FP- but prohibit PF- than vice versa. This might also hold for NP- and PN-, but NP- can often be analyzed as units. (Of course, not all languages necessarily have grounds for distinguishing between consonants and clusters...)
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Solarius »

IIRC there's a Qiangic language which recently underwent monosyllabicization, but in such a way that the permitted clusters were identical in onset and coda--i.e. [ClaCl] was valid but [ClalC] wasn't.
Check out Ussaria!
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Nortaneous »

Solarius wrote: 22 Oct 2019 21:49 IIRC there's a Qiangic language which recently underwent monosyllabicization, but in such a way that the permitted clusters were identical in onset and coda--i.e. [ClaCl] was valid but [ClalC] wasn't.
Ronghong Qiang, described in LaPolla's grammar
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Omzinesý »

Northern Saami has quite few CVCV words but very often a geminate.
Finnish kota Northern Saami koɑhti - koɑʰtti

Estonian word strength is also interesting:
linn 'town'
liin 'linen'
lina '?' (at least allowed)
# lin (too short a word to be allowed)
Both vowels and consonants can be of three different lengths.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Omzinesý »

Nortaneous wrote: 22 Oct 2019 15:42
Zekoslav wrote: 05 Oct 2019 10:01 Allowing /s/ + stop clusters to begin a syllable is actually one of Indo-European peculiarities, since these clusters also go against the sonority hierarchy. In that context Western Romance languages which put a vowel before these clusters are actually making things more normal!
It's not that weird -- in many languages in the Tibetic linguistic area, for example, every cluster that isn't of the form CR violates the sonority hierarchy! Typically you have (sonority-violating) FC NC and (sonority-compliant) CR, e.g. /sp- mp- pr-/, but you don't have (sonority-compliant) PF PN FN etc.

My guess is that there are more languages that allow FP- but prohibit PF- than vice versa. This might also hold for NP- and PN-, but NP- can often be analyzed as units. (Of course, not all languages necessarily have grounds for distinguishing between consonants and clusters...)
Greek and Latin had /ps/ and /ks/, not /bz/ or /gz/. No language with many plosive + fricative clusters comes to my mind.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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qwed117
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by qwed117 »

Omzinesý wrote: 08 Apr 2021 09:12
Nortaneous wrote: 22 Oct 2019 15:42
Zekoslav wrote: 05 Oct 2019 10:01 Allowing /s/ + stop clusters to begin a syllable is actually one of Indo-European peculiarities, since these clusters also go against the sonority hierarchy. In that context Western Romance languages which put a vowel before these clusters are actually making things more normal!
It's not that weird -- in many languages in the Tibetic linguistic area, for example, every cluster that isn't of the form CR violates the sonority hierarchy! Typically you have (sonority-violating) FC NC and (sonority-compliant) CR, e.g. /sp- mp- pr-/, but you don't have (sonority-compliant) PF PN FN etc.

My guess is that there are more languages that allow FP- but prohibit PF- than vice versa. This might also hold for NP- and PN-, but NP- can often be analyzed as units. (Of course, not all languages necessarily have grounds for distinguishing between consonants and clusters...)
Greek and Latin had /ps/ and /ks/, not /bz/ or /gz/. No language with many plosive + fricative clusters comes to my mind.
Should be noted that Greek nor Latin had a plain /z/ (Modern Greek's /z/ descends from either /zd/ or /dz/- personally, I prefer zdeta, but the fact that tsan exists as well makes zdeta weird in the larger scheme of things)
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Re: Languages with interesting phonotactics

Post by Ahzoh »

Pabappa wrote: 30 Jul 2019 14:34 One thing I notice about Semitic languages is that they don't seem to have a lot of homorganic nasal+stop clusters. /mb mp nt nd/ etc.
Assimilation involving nasals and non-nasals is a common occurrence in Semitic languages. They also strongly dislike certain homoorganic clusters in the first and second radicals, but don't much mind them in the second and third. There are no roots like B-M-T or G-K-L or S-S-B but you'll see lots of M-K-K and D-M-M
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