Nifty Random Features

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MrKrov
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by MrKrov »

You're conflating locative marking on nouns with that on verbs.
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Logomachist »

eldin raigmore wrote: But there are markers called "switch-reference markers" that;
* have different values than "same" and "different", (for instance, "properly contains", or, "is properly contained in") (or, for places and times, "is contiguous to")
and/or
* are about other referents than "subject"s, (for instance, "same or different objects", "subject of marked clause same as or different than object of referred-to clause", "object of marked clause same as or different from subject of referred-to clause") (or, "same or different place", or "same or different time").
What exactly a given value of one of these switch-reference markers means in any given use, depends on the types of the marked clause and the referred-to clause.

Suppose for a moment that the Initial, "anchor" clause, and the Consecutive clause, both are two-participant transitive clauses with an Agent and a Patient.
Suppose Consecutive clause is switch-reference-marked referring to the Initial, "anchor" clause.

Let's call the referred-to clause's agent "rA" and its patient "rP"; let's call the marked clause's agent "mA" and its patient "mP".
::brain overheats, smoke drifts out ears::
I didn't really get that, could you provide some examples?
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by eldin raigmore »

Logomachist wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote: But there are markers called "switch-reference markers" that;
* have different values than "same" and "different", (for instance, "properly contains", or, "is properly contained in") (or, for places and times, "is contiguous to")
and/or
* are about other referents than "subject"s, (for instance, "same or different objects", "subject of marked clause same as or different than object of referred-to clause", "object of marked clause same as or different from subject of referred-to clause") (or, "same or different place", or "same or different time").
What exactly a given value of one of these switch-reference markers means in any given use, depends on the types of the marked clause and the referred-to clause.

Suppose for a moment that the Initial, "anchor" clause, and the Consecutive clause, both are two-participant transitive clauses with an Agent and a Patient.
Suppose Consecutive clause is switch-reference-marked referring to the Initial, "anchor" clause.

Let's call the referred-to clause's agent "rA" and its patient "rP"; let's call the marked clause's agent "mA" and its patient "mP".


::brain overheats, smoke drifts out ears::
I didn't really get that, could you provide some examples?
I'll certainly try to.

I probably can't do it in English; actually I probably can't do it in any natural language, since I'm not fluent in any switch-reference language; but I'll try.

But before I do, could you be more specific?
Pick a clause or two, and/or a phrase or two, that you don't get and that you want an example of.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the off-chance that you want a two-clause example where each clause has an Agent and a Patient, and using the markers I posted for Adpihi, suppose the anchor, initial clause is "Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT" and the consecutive clause's verb is "kissed-CONJ".

We could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT doso-kissed-CONJ
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and he (Bob) kissed her (Carol).

"do-" means the agent of the consecutive clause is the same as the agent of the anchor clause (namely Bob).
"-so-" means the patient of the consecutive clause is the same as the patient of the anchor clause (namely Carol).

We could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT do-kissed-CONJ Alice-PAT
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and he (Bob) kissed Alice.

"do-" means the agent of the consecutive clause is the same as the agent of the anchor clause (namely Bob).
The lack of a "-so-" or "-la-" means the patient of "do-kissed-CONJ" is not the same as any participant of the initial clause.

We could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT so-kissed-CONJ Ted-AGT
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and Ted kissed her (Carol).

"so-" means the patient of the consecutive clause is the same as the patient of the anchor clause, Carol.
The lack of a "do-" or "re-" means the agent of "so-kissed-CONJ" is not the same as any participant of the initial clause.

We could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT rela-kissed-CONJ
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and she (Carol) kissed him (Bob).

"re-" means the agent of the consecutive clause is the same as the patient of the anchor clause (namely Carol).
"-la-" means the patient of the consecutive clause is the same as the agent of the anchor clause (namely Bob).

We could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT re-kissed-CONJ Ted-PAT
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and she (Carol) kissed Ted.

"re-" means the agent of the consecutive clause is the same as the patient of the anchor clause (namely Carol).
The lack of any "-so" or "-la-" means the patient of the consecutive clause is not the same as any participant of the anchor clause.

We could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT la-kissed-CONJ Alice-AGT
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and Alice kissed him (Bob).

"la-" means the patient of the consecutive clause is the same as the agent of the anchor clause (namely Bob).
The lack of any "do-" or "re-" means the agent of the consecutive clause is not the same as any participant of the anchor clause.

Finally we could have
Hugged Bob-AGT Carol-PAT kissed-CONJ Ted-AGT Alice-PAT
to mean
Bob hugged Carol and Ted kissed Alice.

The lack of any "do-" or "re-" means the agent of the consecutive clause is not the same as any participant of the anchor clause.
The lack of any "-so-" or "-la-" means the patient of the consecutive clause is not the same as any participant of the anchor clause.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Does that help?

Do you need me to also illustrate "proper containment"?
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Darkgamma »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Batshit Snippet
Does that help?

Do you need me to also illustrate "proper containment"?
*facepalm* It works for me (not much) but I doubt most people wouldn't go *double facepalm*, I just went one.
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by eldin raigmore »

Darkgamma wrote:*facepalm* It works for me (not much) but I doubt most people wouldn't go *double facepalm*, I just went one.
So what do you want me to do?


__________________________________________________________________________________________


Hugged boys-AGT girls-PAT doso-kissed-CONJ
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and exacly the same boys kissed exactly the same girls."

Hugged boys-AGT girls-PAT doti-kissed-CONJ
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and exacly the same boys kissed one or more girls either included in or including the first group of girls."

Hugged boys-AGT girls-PAT miso-kissed-CONJ
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and one or more boys either including or included in that first group of boys kissed exactly the same girls."

Hugged boys-AGT girls-PAT miti-kissed-CONJ
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and one or more boys either including or included in that first group of boys kissed one or more girls either included in or including that first group of girls."


__________________________________________________________________________________________


These could be disambiguated by number.

Hugged boys-AGT girl-PAT-PLU doti-kissed-CONJ girl-PAT-SING
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and exacly the same boys kissed one of those girls."

Hugged boys-AGT girl-PAT-SING doti-kissed-CONJ girl-PAT-PLU
would mean "Some boys hugged a girl and exacly the same boys kissed her and some other girls."


Hugged boy-AGT-PLU girls-PAT miso-kissed-CONJ boy-AGT-SING
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and one of the boys kissed exactly the same girls."

Hugged boy-AGT-SING girls-PAT miso-kissed-CONJ boy-AGT-PLU
would mean "A boy hugged some girls and he and some more boys kissed exactly the same girls."


Hugged boy-AGT-PLU girl-PAT-PLU miti-kissed-CONJ boy-AGT-SING girl-PAT-SING
would mean "Some boys hugged some girls and one of the boys kissed one of the girls."

Hugged boy-AGT-PLU girl-PAT-SING miti-kissed-CONJ boy-AGT-SING girl-PAT-PLU
would mean "Some boys hugged a girl and one of the boys kissed her and some more girls."

Hugged boy-AGT-SING girl-PAT-PLU miti-kissed-CONJ boy-AGT-PLU girl-PAT-SING
would mean "A boy hugged some girls and he and some more boys kissed one of the girls."

Hugged boy-AGT-SING girl-PAT-SING miti-kissed-CONJ boy-AGT-PLU girl-PAT-PLU
would mean "A boy hugged a girl and he and some more boys kissed her and some more girls."


__________________________________________________________________________________________


In my conlang Adpihi,

"do-" means the agent of the referencing clause is exactly the same as the agent of the anchor clause;
"mi-" means the agent of the referencing clause is either included in, or includes, the agent of the anchor clause;
if neither marking occurs it means the agent of the referencing clause is not so simply related to the agent of the anchor clause. Maybe they're disjoint; maybe they overlap without either containing the other.

"-so-" means the patient of the referencing clause is exactly the same as the patient of the anchor clause;
"-ti-" means the patient of the referencing clause is either included in, or includes, the patient of the anchor clause;
if neither marking occurs it means the patient of the referencing clause is not so simply related to the patient of the anchor clause. Maybe they're disjoint; maybe they overlap without either containing the other.


__________________________________________________________________________________________


TTBOMK no natlang's system is exactly like that. All I have heard of that mark proper containment at all, treat proper containment in one direction differently from proper containment in the other direction. Frequently one direction is treated the same as identical equality; or, one direction is treated the same as "no relation"; sometimes both.

(Adpihi has five grammatical numbers (singular, dual, trial, paucal, and plural), so in many cases the direction of these proper-containment relations can be disambiguated by grammatical number; the one with the smaller number must be properly contained in the one with the larger number. Also, in a language in which a group of mixed gender is marked as being the "Common (or mixed) gender", the direction can sometimes be disambiguated by gender; the one with the unmixed gender must be properly contained in the one with the mixed gender.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Another way in which Adpihi's system, as I've proposed it, differs from at least some natlangish systems, is that it gives fairly shortish shrift to indirect objects. If I remember correctly, at least one natlang tracks indirect objects a bit better than Adpihi does. But most don't.

__________________________________________________________________________________________
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 30 Jul 2011 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Darkgamma »

I understand what you're saying, but it's not too compact :D
Svo hvernig get ég annað en glott á þig dauðlega?
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by eldin raigmore »

Darkgamma wrote:I understand what you're saying, but it's not too compact :D
When I made it compact you didn't understand it.
Could you try to explain it compactly in a way that can be easily understood by the first-time reader?

Basically:
do means mS/A=rS/A
re means mS/A=rU/E
mi means mS/A<>rS/A
fa means mS/A<>rU/E
so means mU=rS/U
la means mU=rA/E
ti means mU<>rS/U
hut means mU<>rA/E

m means "marked clause"
r means "referenced clause" or "anchor clause"

S means "intransitive subject"
A means "agent or actor"
U means "undergoer or patient"
E means "extended-core term, or indirect object"

<> means "is properly contained in, or properly contains"

/ means "or"

I think that's pretty durned compact.
I guess you didn't get it?
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Darkgamma »

eldin raigmore wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:I understand what you're saying, but it's not too compact :D
When I made it compact you didn't understand it.
Could you try to explain it compactly in a way that can be easily understood by the first-time reader?

Basically:
do means mS/A=rS/A
re means mS/A=rU/E
mi means mS/A<>rS/A
fa means mS/A<>rU/E
so means mU=rS/U
la means mU=rA/E
ti means mU<>rS/U
hut means mU<>rA/E

m means "marked clause"
r means "referenced clause" or "anchor clause"

S means "intransitive subject"
A means "agent or actor"
U means "undergoer or patient"
E means "extended-core term, or indirect object"

<> means "is properly contained in, or properly contains"

/ means "or"

I think that's pretty durned compact.
I guess you didn't get it?
I mostly get it, but I never understood what "=" means in linguistics :-s
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Sodomor »

well...
There's a language in Australia called Yidiny i think that has the tendency to want to make all of its words have an even number of syllables.
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Bristel »

My favorite "nifty" random feature, is the infix -i- in Finnish to make the plural.

I like that feature so much, I am using it in a few of my conlangs.

Fake, made-up on-the-spot example:

mora = "a word"
moira = "words"
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by MrKrov »

That's not an infix in Finnish. It's a suffix.
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Xing »

MrKrov wrote:That's not an infix in Finnish. It's a suffix.
What you said
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Ossicone »

Maybe he was confused with Inyauk? :mrgreen:

ínyak - person
ínyauk - people

Can't forget the dual!

tsál - [ 'ʦʰal ] - sun
tsánil - [ 'ʦʰanɪl ] - 2 suns
tsául - [ ʦʰaʔʊl ] - suns
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by plathhs »

To be honest, the first thing I thought of was Inyauk. :D
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Ossicone »

And that is why you're awesome! :-D
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by míkl »

plathhs wrote:To be honest, the first thing I though of was Inyauk. :D
Same! :-o
Ossicone wrote:And that is why you're awesome! :-D
I'm not fishing for a compliment! Honest! :-P
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by eldin raigmore »

Ossicone wrote:Maybe he was confused with Inyauk? :mrgreen:

ínyak - person
ínyauk - people

Can't forget the dual!

tsál - [ 'ʦʰal ] - sun
tsánil - [ 'ʦʰanɪl ] - 2 suns
tsául - [ ʦʰaʔʊl ] - suns
So, is ínyanik two people?

Also, some languages have non-pluralizable or mandatorily-singular "count" nouns; "sun" and "moon" and "sky", and possibly also "earth" if it's a "count" noun rather than a "mass-or-measure" noun, tend to be among them, as do proper names.
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Ossicone »

míkl wrote:I'm not fishing for a compliment! Honest! :-P
You can be awesome too. :P
eldin raigmore wrote: So, is ínyanik two people?
Yep yep.
eldin raigmore wrote:Also, some languages have non-pluralizable or mandatorily-singular "count" nouns; "sun" and "moon" and "sky", and possibly also "earth" if it's a "count" noun rather than a "mass-or-measure" noun, tend to be among them, as do proper names.
Inyauk is kinda weird in that it doesn't distinguish count/mass nouns. Even proper names, which are usually just common nouns anyway, can take dual and plural infixes. Although that would be fairly rare as there wouldn't be much use to it.

Also I like to imagine that one day the Inyauk will use 'tsánil' to refer to a binary star. :D
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Bristel »

Oh I'm embarrassed. I just realized that the infix I was talking about is from Sindarin. :oops:
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]
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Re: Nifty Random Features

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

Be not embarassed! That was fun.
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