Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

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Omzinesý
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Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Omzinesý »

1. - definite
(My neighbor has five sons.)
I saw the five boys in the garden.

2. -"semi-definite"
(My neighbor has seven sons.)
I saw five (of the) boys in the garden.

3. - indefinite
(The neighborhood is very child friendly.)
I saw five boys in the garden.
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Bagliun Edar
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Bagliun Edar »

:con: Obulamga

1. - definite
(My neighbor has five sons.)
Abameurodo ilialbro zuruaginil ala.
[ˈabamɛuˌɾɔdɔ ˈiliˌalbɾɔ ˈzuɾuaˌginil ˈala]
abam-e-uro-do ilial-bro zurua-ginil ala
person-IND_SG.DEF.MASC-1.this-TOP see-EVID.POL child-IND_PAU.DEF.MASC[ACC] five
I saw the five boys in the garden.

2. - "semi-definite"
(My neighbor has seven sons.)
Abameurodo ilialbro alagunul zuruaginilzu.
[ˈabamɛuˌɾɔdɔ ˈiliˌalbɾɔ ˈalaˌgunul ˈzuɾuagiˌnilzu]
abam-e-uro-do ilial-bro ala-gunul zurua-ginil-zu
person-IND_SG.DEF.MASC-1.this-TOP see-EVID.POL five-IND_PAU.INDF.MASC[ACC] child-IND_PAU.DEF.MASC-REL
I saw five (of the) boys in the garden.

3. - indefinite
(The neighborhood is very child friendly.)
Abameurodo ilialbro zuruagunul ala.
[ˈabamɛuˌɾɔdɔ ˈiliˌalbɾɔ ˈzuɾuaˌgunul ˈala]
abam-e-uro-do ilial-bro zurua-gunul ala
person-IND_SG.DEF.MASC-1.this-TOP see-EVID.POL child-IND_PAU.INDF.MASC[ACC] five
I saw five boys in the garden.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Lao Kou »

Image Géarthnuns

1. - definite (My neighbor has five sons.)

Sí lé chök zodöbsöch palaveböch cha mörveflahansav tel.
1SG-NOM AUX.PAST DEF.PL boy-ACC.PL five-ACC.PL DEF garden-LOC see
I saw the five boys in the garden.

2. -"semi-definite" (My neighbor has seven sons.)

Sí lé sök palavebsöch (rhöböd bdau/chök zodöbsöd bdau) cha mörveflahansav tel.
1SG-NOM AUX.PAST INDEF.PL five.one-ACC.PL (3PL-POST from.among/DEF.PL boy-POST.PL from.among) DEF garden-LOC see
I saw five (of them/of the boys) in the garden.

3. - indefinite (The neighborhood is very child friendly.)

Sí lé sök zodöbsöch palaveböch cha mörveflahansav tel.
1SG-NOM AUX.PAST INDEF.PL boy-ACC.PL five-ACC.PL DEF garden-LOC see
I saw five boys in the garden.
Last edited by Lao Kou on 25 Mar 2016 14:03, edited 2 times in total.
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k1234567890y
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by k1234567890y »

:con: lonmai luna/liunan

1.
se dem hir mi-les dal on dul e cetal on
1.SG see COMP five-CLF person the be.at at field the

2.
se dem hir mi-les los dal on dul e cetal on
1.SG see COMP five-CLF of person the be.at at field the

3.
se dem hir mi-les dal dul e cetal on
1.SG see COMP five-CLF person be.at at field the
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Shyvie »

1. - definite
yá zeşeɱa yştík kuqúɱuɱ şr mɱquŋç
1SG.FEM garden.LOC 5 child.PL.EMPH TOPIC see.V
Emphatically stating there are 5 kids

2. -"semi-definite"
yá zeşeɱa yştík kuqúɱu şrş mɱquŋç
1SG.FEM garden.LOC 5 child.PL TOPIC.EMPH see.V
Implying there are more than what is being discussed, but the focus is only on that five

3. - indefinite
yá zeşeɱa yştík kuqúɱu şr mɱquŋç
1SG.FEM garden.LOC 5 child.PL TOPIC see.V





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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Chagen »

:con: Pazmat:

Pazmat uses numbers in the indefinite with a definite noun (the only time adjectives may differ from their nouns in regards to definiteness) to express the "semi-indefinite":

1:
jnosāya wurfrīyya dhaufnāva thawina
five-DEF-ACC boy-DEF.PL-ACC garden-DEF.SG-LOC see-IMPER-1S

2:
jnosya wurfrīyya dhaufnāva thawina
five-INDEF-ACC boy-DEF.PL-ACC garden-DEF.SG-LOC see-IMPER-1S

3:
jnosya wurfaryē dhaufnāva thawina
five-INDEF-ACC boy-INDEF.PL-ACC garden-DEF.SG-LOC see-IMPER-1S
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Yélian

Yivalai a'brogoni minca væ nebiat.
[ʃiˈvaːlaɪ̯ aˈbroːgɔni ˈmiŋkɐ vœ ˈnɛbjɐt]
PST-see-1SG DEF.ANIM-boy-PL-NUM five in garden
I saw the five boys in the garden.

Yivalai minca o'brogon væ nebiat.
[ʃiˈvaːlaɪ̯ ˈmiŋkɐ ɔˈbroːgɔn vœ ˈnɛbjɐt]
PST-see-1SG five DEF.GEN-boy-PL in garden
I saw five of the boys in the garden.

Yivalai brogoni minca væ nebiat.
[ʃiˈvaːlaɪ̯ broːgɔni ˈmiŋkɐ vœ ˈnɛbjɐt]
PST-see-1SG boy-PL-NUM five in garden
I saw five boys in the garden.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by k1234567890y »

:con: Urban Basanawa

Not really different from that of English

1. - definite
吾見ああだ五坊わ゚ん中んだ園
/ɪk sɑ: də faɪf knɑ:vən ɪn də gart/(pronunciation)
吾 見ああ だ 五 坊-ん 中ん だ 園
1.SG.NOM see.PST.1.SG the five boy-PL in the garden(interlinear)
I saw the five boys in the garden.(English)

2. -"semi-definite"
吾見ああ五ふぉんだ坊わ゚ん中んだ園
/ɪk sɑ: faɪf fɔn də knɑ:vən ɪn də gart/(pronunciation)
吾 見ああ 五 ふぉん だ 坊-ん 中ん だ 園
1.SG.NOM see.PST.1.SG five of the boy-PL in the garden(interlinear)
I saw five (of the) boys in the garden.

3. - indefinite
吾見ああ五坊わ゚ん中んだ園
/ɪk sɑ: faɪf knɑ:vən ɪn də gart/(pronunciation)
吾 見ああ 五 坊-ん 中ん だ 園
1.SG.NOM see.PST.1.SG five boy-PL in the garden(interlinear)
I saw five boys in the garden.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Zythros Jubi »

Roguelian:

1. Gi-git'e-k'a pulus ji-in-itk-am.
MED-five.ATTR-boy garden see-LOC_focus-PST-1SG.AGT

2. K'a-sot git'en pulus ji-in-itk-am.
boy-among five.NMLZ garden see-LOC_focus-PST-1SG.AGT

3. Git'e-k'a pulus ji-in-itk-am.
five.ATTR-boy garden see-LOC_focus-PST-1SG.AGT
Spoiler:
PS: Why is the character 坊 used for "boy"?
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k1234567890y
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by k1234567890y »

Zythros Jubi wrote: PS: Why is the character 坊 used for "boy"?
The Kanji usage in Urban Basanawa usually(but not always) follows their meanings in Japanese, despite that the 訓讀 in Urban Basanawa and the 訓讀 in Japanese of a Kanji is usually radically different, and the kanji "坊" can be used to indicate "boy" in Japanese.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Adarain »

Tigys kámbbiys tá níñgȿapos gatirdanys [tɪɠʌs kæᵐb:jɯs tæ niᵑɡʂæpos ɠɑtɪɹɗɑnʌs]

Code: Select all

tig-y-s	  kámbbi-y-s  tá níñgȿap-o-s    ga-tir-da-ny-s
five-PL-ABS boy-PL-ABS i n garden-SG-ABS 1NOM-see-MOM-SG>PL-3ABS
"I saw the five boys"

Tá níñgȿapos tigkyyt gatirkabbidao [tæ niᵑɡʂæpos tɪk:ʌ:t ɠɑtɪɹkɑɓ:ɪɗɑo]

Code: Select all

tá níñgȿap-o-s   tig-ky-y-t       ga-tir-kámbbi-da-o
in garden-SG-ABS five-PART-PL-ESS 1NOM-see-boy-MOM-SG
"I saw five of the boys"

Tá níñgȿapos tigyt gatirkabbidao [tæ niᵑɡʂæpos tɪɠʌt ɠɑtɪɹkɑɓ:ɪɗɑo]

Code: Select all

tá níñgȿap-o-s   tig-y-t     ga-tir-kámbbi-da-o
in garden-SG-ABS five-PL-ESS 1NOM-see-boy-MOM-SG
"I saw five boys"

Explanation:
Definiteness is expressed via various means, one of which being case on prepositional phrases (had it been "in a garden", then garden would be in the essive instead), another one being incorporation: The head of an indefinite absolutive noun phrase is incorporated into the verb, which decreases its valency by one if possible (so transitive verbs become intransitive). The rest of the noun phrase is moved to immediately before the verb and takes agreement with the number of the head and the essive case.
Partitive is a derivation applicable to all determiners, including numbers: tig "five", tigky "five of", and can only occur with indefinites.
During incorporation, the noun is forced to take on the vowel harmony of the verb it is incorporated to, so kámbbi (which is +ATR) becomes kabbi (which is -ATR). ᵐb cannot appear before -ATR vowels, so it changes into ɓ
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Sumelic »

:con: Yagbi:

1. Me tangi kami zamu wo ni ku chihe tigbo.
[mɛˌtɑᵑgiˈkɑmi zɑˈmuwɔ ˌnikuˈtʃixɛ ˈtig͡bɔ]

Code: Select all

mɛ=tɑ-ᵑgi  kɑmi       zɑmu=wɑ    ni=ku        tʃi-xɛ  tigbɑ
1s=get-PST appearance garden=LOC DEM.DIST=GEN five-CL boy
“I saw those five boys in the garden.” (My neighbor has five sons.)

Yagbi demonstratives can sometimes be used like definite articles, although they are not used as frequently as the English definite articles. The distal demonstrative “ni” is generally used in situations like this where the speaker is referring to things that are not being introduced but are already familar. Enclitic postpositions usually go at the end of a noun phrase, but when a demonstrative is used they go directly after the demonstrative.

2. Me tangi kami zamu wo chihe ni ku tigbo.
[mɛˌtɑᵑgiˈkɑmi zɑˈmuwɔ ˈtʃixɛ ˌnikuˈtig͡bɔ]

Code: Select all

mɛ=tɑ-ᵑgi  kɑmi       zɑmu=wɑ    tʃi-xɛ  ni=ku        tigbɑ
1s=get-PST appearance garden=LOC five-CL DEM.DIST=GEN boy
“I saw five of those boys in the garden.” (My neighbor has seven sons.)

Not sure if I’ll introduce another construction for this later, but for now this word order seems sufficient.

3. Me tangi kami zamu wo chihe tigbo ku.
[mɛˌtɑᵑgiˈkɑmi zɑˈmuwɔ ˈtʃixɛ tiˈg͡bɔku]

Code: Select all

mɛ=tɑ-ᵑgi  kɑmi       zɑmu=wɑ    tʃi-xɛ  tig͡bɑ=ku
1s=get-PST appearance garden=LOC five-CL boy=GEN
“I saw five boys in the garden.” (The neighborhood is very child friendly.)
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by kiwikami »

:con: Alál

1. - definite (My neighbor has five sons.)
Halàhukùẓḷurılṣı us ıkùs uthàsatas.
hu<alà~hu.kù-ẓaḷ>ŕ-ıl-ṣ-ı us kı<ù>s uth<à>sat<a>s
see<1.3PL~-all-five_obj>-PST-method-DUR inside child<PAT> garden<OBL>
I saw the five boys in the garden.

2. -"semi-definite"
(My neighbor has seven sons.)
Halàhuẓḷurılṣı us ıkùs uthàsatas.
hu<alà~hu.ẓaḷ>ŕ-ıl-ṣ-ı us kı<ù>s uth<à>sat<a>s
see<1.3PL~-five_obj>-PST-method-DUR inside child<PAT> garden<OBL>
I saw five (of the) boys in the garden.

3. - indefinite
(The neighborhood is very child friendly.)
Haḳhuẓḷarılṣı us ıkùs uthàsatas.
hu<aḳ~hu.ẓaḷ>ŕ-ıl-ṣ-ı us kı<ù>s uth<à>sat<a>s
see<1.4PL~-five_obj>-PST-method-DUR inside child<PAT> garden<OBL>
I saw five boys in the garden.

Alál has a specific verb agreement for definite vs. indefinite third-person nouns, and distinguishes the "semi-definite" by not explicitly indicating that the group of five boys seen is the entire group of boys, which is done in (1.) using the "all"-object marker ~C(C)V.kù. You could also do this by indicating that the group seen is "some" or "many" or "most" of the total group of boys (Halàhuẓraẓḷurılṣı, Halàhusḷaẓḷurılṣı, and Halàhuhzaẓḷurılṣı, respectively).
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
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marvelous
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by marvelous »

:con: Tasza

1. - definite
(My neighbor has five sons.)
I saw the five boys in the garden.
Lóbadem se (taga) szoki tarísza né murnaszé.
/lo'badɛm sɛ (ta'ga) ʂɔ'kɪ ʈa'ɻiʂa ne mʊ'ɳaʂe/
garden-ABL POST.in (DEM-LAT) five child-LAT POST.to see-PRF.1S

2. -"semi-definite"
(My neighbor has seven sons.)
I saw five (of the) boys in the garden.
Lóbadem se (tagam) taríjam ní szoki né murnaszé.
/lo'badɛm sɛ (ta'gam) ʈa'ɻiɖ͡ʐam ni ʂɔ'kɪ ne mʊ'ɳaʂe/
garden-ABL POST.in (DEM.ABL) child.ABL POST.from five POST.to see-PRF.1S

3. - indefinite
(The neighborhood is very child friendly.)
I saw five boys in the garden.
Lóbadem se szoki tarísza né murnaszé.
/lo'badɛm sɛ ʂɔ'kɪ ʈa'ɻiʂa ne mʊ'ɳaʂe/
garden-ABL POST.in five child-LAT POST.to see-PRF.1S
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Mándinrùh »

:con: Proto-Váhxùg

1.
Búnrùgvad vúnmáhvim vàm gudmàhrig búnbùnrig.
/bɯ́n.rɯ̰̽ɡ.bʷäd bʷɯ́n.mɜ́ŋ.bʷim bʷä̰m ɡɯ̽d.mɜ̰ŋ.riɡ bɯ́n.bɯ̰n.riɡ/
Búnrùg-vad vúnmáh-vim vàm gudmàh-rig búnbùn-rig.
nature.place-LOC eye-OBS DSC\five-ERG POSS\1PX.OBS boy-ERG.
At the garden eye observing five my boy.
‘I saw the five boys in the garden.’

2.
Gudmàhgih vúnmáhvim búnrùgvad vàm búnbùngih.
/ɡɯ̽d.mɜ̰ŋ.ɡɪŋ bʷɯ́n.mɜ́ŋ.bʷim bɯ́n.rɯ̰̽ɡ.bʷäd bʷä̰m bɯ́n.bɯ̰n.ɡɪŋ/
Gudmàh-gih vúnmáh-vim búnrùg-vad vàm búnbùn-gih.
DSC\five-DISTR eye-OBS nature.place-LOC POSS\1PX.OBS boy-DISTR.
Each of five eye observing at the garden my each boy.
‘I saw five of the boys in the garden.’

3.
Búnbùnrig gudmàhrig vúnmáhvim búnrùgvad vàm.
/bɯ́n.bɯ̰n.riɡ ɡɯ̽d.mɜ̰ŋ.riɡ bʷɯ́n.mɜ́ŋ.bʷim bɯ́n.rɯ̰̽ɡ.bʷäd bʷä̰m/
Búnbùn-rig gudmàh-rig vúnmáh-vim búnrùg-vad vàm.
boy-ERG DSC\five-ERG eye-OBS nature.place-LOC POSS\1PX.OBS.
Boy five eye observing at the garden my.
‘I saw five boys in the garden.’

Notes:
DSC: Descriptive, use of a noun to describe another noun, formed by tone shift from high to mid in the first syllable
POSS: Descriptive, use of a noun to indicate possession of another noun, formed by tone shift from high to low in the first syllable
OBS: Observative case, used to indicate somebody or something making an observation of something else.
1PX: First person exclusive pronoun
Nouns have two numbers in PV: paucal and plural. Paucal is for less than 21.
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Re: Five boys in the garden (definiteness)

Post by Ebon »

:con: Aretach
no word for boy yet don't mind me substituting

Ker deonedhy den kirdigan orkidhe.

/kɛɹ dɛ.ˈɔʊ.nɛd.hy dɛn kɪɹ.daj.ˈgan ɔɹ.ˈkɪd.hɛ/
five ACC.person.PL DEF.ACC.PL LOC.garden PAST.see.1SG
I saw the five boys in the garden.

Deker onild kirdigan orkidhe.
/dɛ.ˈkɛɹ ˈɔʊ.nɪld kɪɹ.daj.ˈgan ɔɹ.ˈkɪd.hɛ/
ACC.five person.MASS LOC.garden PAST.see.1SG
I saw five (of the) boys in the garden.

Ker deonedhy kirdigan orkidhe.
/kɛɹ dɛ.ˈɔʊ.nɛd.hy kɪɹ.daj.ˈgan ɔɹ.ˈkɪd.hɛ/
five ACC.person.PL LOC.garden PAST.see.1SG
I saw five boys in the garden.
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