L'Étranger

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Pāṇini
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L'Étranger

Post by Pāṇini »

Here's a little prose poem by Charles Baudelaire which might be a good exercise.

:fra: French
— Qui aimes-tu le mieux, homme énigmatique, dis ? ton père, ta mère, ta sœur ou ton frère ?
— Je n’ai ni père, ni mère, ni sœur, ni frère.
— Tes amis ?
— Vous vous servez là d’une parole dont le sens m’est resté jusqu’à ce jour inconnu.
— Ta patrie ?
— J’ignore sous quelle latitude elle est située.
— La beauté ?
— Je l’aimerais volontiers, déesse et immortelle.
— L’or ?
— Je le hais comme vous haïssez Dieu.
— Eh ! qu’aimes-tu donc, extraordinaire étranger ?
— J’aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent… là-bas… les merveilleux nuages !

:usa: English
"Who do you love the most, enigmatic man? Tell me. Your father, your mother, your sister or your brother?"
"I have no father, nor mother, nor sister, nor brother."
"Your friends?"
"You use a word whose meaning, up to today, has been unknown to me."
"Your homeland?"
"I'm unaware of its latitude."
"Beauty?"
"I would love her gladly, a goddess and immortal."
"Gold?"
"I hate it like you hate God."
"Oh! What do you love then, extraordinary stranger?"
"I love the clouds... the clouds that pass... up there... the marvelous clouds!

:con: Sicilian Norman
— Chi tì aimas miuz, ummu nigmatic, dies? Tun peru, ta mera, ta siror, ô tun freru?
— Gio nun ai ni peru, ni mera, ni siror, ni freru.
— Tis amìs?
— Vos sirvissez par ina parola di quei sens m’era, geschi zest gior, discunnì.
— Ta patria?
— Gio nun cunnois en cheḍḍa latitudini si post.
— La bialtè?
— Bien l’amiroa, diguessa et immurtel.
— L’or?
— Gio li gahis cumment vos gahissez Diu.
— Eh! Quei t'aimas dunc, struḍḍinair strangier?
— Gi’aim lus nibrès... lus nibrès chi passa... par loc... lus mirviòs nibrès!

EDIT: Added Dormouse's suggestions on the translations.
Last edited by Pāṇini on 02 Aug 2020 16:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Dormouse559
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Re: L'Étranger

Post by Dormouse559 »

Pāṇini wrote:
01 Aug 2020 20:24
Here's a little prose poem by Charles Baudelaire which might be a good exercise.
Hmm, interesting! It definitely gives one a lot to think about. On the English translation, I think "qu'aimes-tu" should be translated as "what do you love" rather than "who". And the "patrie" exchange is missing.

I hope this isn't the last we see of Sicilian Norman [:)] Looks really neat!



Something to note for those who can't read the French: The questioner addresses the stranger (l'étranger of the title) in familiar terms, like one uses for family and friends. But the stranger addresses the questioner in formal terms.



Image Silvish

« Ki ke t' ama lo myeô, òme sfinksa, dî ? Tyu parï, te marï, te seû ou tyu frarï ?
— Jh' e ne parï, ne marï, ne seû, ne frarï.
— Ti-z ami ?
— Vou vvou sservê lè d' un mô dont avoî d' ao joer d' yu jho konoisso pa lo senso.
— Ta patri ?
— Jho se pa a kinta latetuda k' â se treuva.
— La bravetà ?
— Jho l' amaroi preuf, dyaese e imortala.
— L' ô ?
— Jho l' amo pa, kome vou llyu Bondi.
— Eh ! kin ke t' ama alòra, ettranjhaî ekstrordenèryo ?
— Jh' amo la nnyeula … la nnyeula ki pasön … lyamon … la nnyeula mervilyeuza ! »

Glosses
Spoiler:
« Ki ke t' ama lo myeô, òme sfinksa, dî ? Tyu parï, te marï, te seû ou tyu frarï ?
[ki.kəˈta.ma ləˈmjœː | ˈʔɔ.mə ˈsfɛ̃n.sa | diː | tjyˈpa.ʁi | təˈma.ʁi | təˈsœː | ʔu.tjyˈfʁa.ʁi]
who SBRD 2S love-2S DEF-M.C best | man enigmatic | tell.IMP.2S | 2S-POSS.M.N.ACC father-ACC | 2S-POSS.F.N.ACC mother-ACC | 2S-POSS.F.N.ACC sister.ACC | or 2S-POSS.M.N.ACC brother-ACC

"Who do you love the most, enigmatic man? Tell me. Your father, your mother, your sister or your brother?"

— Jh' e ne parï, ne marï, ne seû, ne frarï.
[ʒe.nəˈpa.ʁi | nəˈma.ʁi | nəˈsœː | nəˈfʁa.ʁi]
1S.NOM have.1S NEG father-ACC | NEG mother-ACC | NEG sister.ACC | NEG brother-ACC

"I have no father, nor mother, nor sister, nor brother."

— Ti-z ami ?
[ti.zaˈmi]
2S-POSS.M.N.ACC-PL friend

"Your friends?"

— Vou vvou sservê lè d' un mô dont avoî d' ao joer d' yu jho konoisso pa lo senso.
[vuv.vus.sɛˈvɛː ˈlɛ dɛ̃ˈmɔː dɔ̃n.taˈvuː dɑˈʒuʁ ˈdjyː ʒo.kŋ̩ˈus.sə ˈpa ləˈsɛ̃n.sə]
2.FORM 2.FORM use-2.FORM there of INDF word of_which until of to_DEF.M day of today 1S.NOM know-1S NEG DEF-M.C.ACC meaning

"You use a word whose meaning, up to today, has been unknown to me."

— Ta patri ?
[ta.paˈtʁi]
2S-POSS.F.C.ACC homeland

"Your homeland?"

— Jho se pa a kinta latetuda k' â se treuva.
[ʒo.səˈpa ʔa.kɛ̃n.ta.la.təˈty.da kɑː.səˈtʁø.va]
1S.NOM know-1S NEG at which-F.C.ACC latitude-ACC SBRD 3S.F.NOM 3S-REFL find-3S

"I don’t know what latitude it lies in."

— La bravetà ?
[la.bravəˈta]
DEF-F.C.ACC beauty.ACC

"Beauty?"

— Jho l' amaroi preuf, dyaese e imortala.
[ʒla.maˈʁu ˈpʁœf | ˈdjɛ.sə ji.mɔˈta.la]
1S.NOM 3S love-COND-1S gladly | goddess-ACC and immortal-F.C.ACC

"I would love her gladly, a goddess and immortal."

— L' ô ?
[lɔː]
DEF gold

"Gold?"

— Jho l' amo pa, kome vou llyu Bondi.
[ˈʒla.mə ˈpa | ko.me.vuʎ.ʎˑy.bɔ̃ˈdi]
1S.NOM 3S love-1S NEG | like 2.FORM DEF-M.N.ACC God-ACC

"I hate it like you hate God."

— Eh ! kin ke t' ama alòra, ettranjhaî ekstrordenèryo ?
[ˈʔɛ | kɛ̃ŋ.kəˈta.ma ʔaˈlɔ.ʁa | ʔɛt.tʁɑ̃ˈʒyː ʔɛs.stʁɔʁ.dŋ̩ˈɛ.ʁjə]
eh | what.M.C SBRD 2S love-2S then | stranger extraordinary-M.N

"Oh! What do you love then, extraordinary stranger?"

— Jh' amo la nnyeula … la nnyeula ki pasön … lyamon … la nnyeula mervilyeuza ! »
[ˈʒa.mə lɑˈɲˑø.la | lɑˈɲˑø.la kiˈpa.sŋ̩ | ʎˑaˈmɔ̃ŋ | lɑˈɲˑø.la mɛʁ.viˈʎˑø.za]
1S.NOM love-1S DEF-F.C.ACC.PL cloud | DEF-F.C.ACC.PL cloud REL-NOM pass-3P | there-above | DEF-F.C.ACC.PL cloud marvelous-F.C

"I love the clouds... the clouds that pass... up there... the marvelous clouds!

Notes and new/rethought vocabulary:
Spoiler:
  • "Enigmatic" (and "enigma") is translated with sfinksa, the word for a riddle.
  • Thanks to its cases, Silvish is more willing to drop parallel verbs and prepositions. So to translate "I hate it like you hate God," the most natural choice is to drop the second "hate". Li Bondyeu "God" is unambiguously declined as the direct object of a verb.
  • There is no single word for "hate". The most common equivalent is pa amâ "not love".
bravetà nfc - beauty (< bravo "beautiful" + -tà nominalizer)
dyaesa nfn - goddess
ekstrordenèryo adj - extraordinary
ettranjhaî / ettranjhairye nmn / nfn - stranger; foreigner
imortalo adj - immortal
latetuda nfc - latitude
sfinksa nfc - riddle, enigma (< sfinkso "sphinx"; gender influenced by displaced devinæta; adjectivally, means "enigmatic")

Iyionaku
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Re: L'Étranger

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Yélian
Edit: I omitted an entire paragraph!
»Pe afirtiáverei, broyaliýmalas? Rat iracas. Sao pèno, sao méva, sao nemia ù namo?«
»Cibai pèno, poucibai méva ù nemia ù namo.«
»Sao ifren?«
»Agirei matay vit can rat natubut, na siy yéliun.«
»Sao acadiæsér?«
»Deo vetalinsé pès rat caipradvut.«
»Æ'lendan?«
»Diselivaino pi rat diávervit, a'Licenecolkaprès.«
»U'matir?«
»Rat arasut cet arasei a'devian.«
»Væ! Cubetál, pe iáverei, cilarorceniats o'devian?«
»Iáverai u'triyban... u'triyban vit advidanti... væ vendonais... u'triybævilan!«


Gloss:
Spoiler:
»Pe afirtiáverei, broyaliýmalas? Rat iracas. Sao pèno, sao méva, sao nemia ù namo?«
[pə ˌaːɸɪɾtˈɪ̯aːʋəɾɛɪ̯ ˈbɾoːʃɐˌla̯iːmɐlɐʃ? ɾɐt ɨˈɾaːkɐʃ. saʊ̯ ˈpɛnɔ̈, saʊ̯ ˈmeːʋɐ, saʊ̯ ˈneːmɪ̯ɐ ʉ ˈnaːmɔ̈]
what good.SUP-love[thing]-2SG, man-enigmatic? 1SG.OBL tell-JUS.2SG | 2SG.POSS father, 2SG.POSS mother, 2SG.POSS sister or brother
"Who do you love the most, enigmatic man? Tell me. Your father, your mother, your sister or your brother?"

»Cibai pèno, poucibai méva ù nemia ù namo.«
[kɨˈbaɪ̯ ˈpɛnɔ̈, pɔʊ̯kɨˈbaɪ̯ ˈmeːʋɐ ʉ ˈneːmɪ̯ɐ ʉ ˈnaːmɔ̈]
NEG-have-1SG father, also-NEG-have-1SG mother or sister or brother
"I have no father, nor mother, nor sister, nor brother."

»Sao ifren?«
[saʊ̯ ˈiːɾən]
2SG.POSS friend.PL
"Your friends?

»Agirei matay vit can rat natubut, na siy yéliun.«
[ɐˈxiːɾɛɪ̯ ˈmaːtɐʃ vɨt‿ɐn ɾɐt ˈnaːtʉbʉt, nɐ sa̯iː ˈʃeːlɪ̯ʉn]
use-2SG word REL for 1SG.POSS unknown-COP.3SG.INAN, until today_{}
"You use a word whose meaning, up to today, has been unknown to me."

»Sao acadiæsér?«
[saʊ̯ ɐˈkaːdɪ̯əˌsed̟]
2SG.POSS country-home
"Your home country?"

»Deo vetalinsé pès rat caipradvut.«
[ˈdeː.ɔ̈ ˈveːtɐlɨnˌseː pɛs ɾɐt‿aɪ̯ˈpɾadvʉt]
<REF.OBJ>.POSS INDR 1SG.OBL NEG-know-INV.3SG.INAN
"I'm unaware of it's latitude.

»Æ'lendan?«
[əˈlendɐn]
DEF.CONC=beauty
"Beauty?"

»Diselivaino pi rat diávinit, a'Licenecolkaprès.«
[dɨˈseːlɨʋaɪ̯nɔ̈ pɨ ɾɐ‿ˈdɪ̯aːʋɨnɨt, ɐlɨˈkeːnəˌkolkɐpɾɛs]
COND-wish-COND.INV.1SG that 1SG.OBL COND-love{person}-COND.3SG.ANIM, DEF.ANIM={divine-aspect-of-duality-and-love}-immortal
I would wish for it to be loved by me, the immortal Licene.

»U'matir?«
[ʉˈmaːtɨd̟]
DEF.INAN=gold
"Gold?"

»Rat arasut cet arasei a'devian.«
[ɾɐt ɐˈɾaːsʉt‿ət ɐˈɾaːsɛɪ̯ ɐˈdeːʋɪ̯ɐn]
1SG.OBL hate-INV.3SG.INAN like hate-2SG DEF.ANIM={divine_aspect}-PL
"It's hated by me like you hate the gods."

»Væ! Cubetál, pe iáverei, cilarorceniats o'devian?«
[vœː! kʉbəˈtaːl, pə ˈɪ̯aːʋəɾɛɪ̯, kɨˈlaːɾɔ̈ɾˌkeːnɪ̯ɐt͡s ɔ̈ˈdeːʋɪ̯ɐn]
oh!, but_then, what love-2SG, stranger-unknown DEF.GEN={divine_aspect}-PL
"Oh! Who do you love then, extraordinary stranger?"

»Iáverai u'triyban... u'triyban vit advidanti... væ vendonais... u'triybævilan!«
[ˈɪ̯aːʋəɾaɪ̯ ʉˈtɾa̯iːbɐn... ʉˈtɾa̯iːbɐn vɨt ˌadvɨˈdanti... və ˈvendɔ̈ˌnaɪ̯s... ʉˈtɾa̯iːˌbœʋɨlɐn]
love-1SG DEF.INAN=cloud-PL... DEF.INAN=cloud-PL that pass-3PL... in sky-high... DEF.INAN=cloud-marvelous-PL
"I love the clouds... the clouds that pass... up there... the marvelous clouds!
Some interesting notes about the text:
Spoiler:
Even though Yélian has a formal T-V distinction, it's not used in this text.

The text switches between two words for "to love": "iava" is "to love" for persons, but "iávera" is "to love" for things.

The phrase »Diselivaino pi rat diávinit, a'Licenecolkaprès.« is worth two looks. First, you can see that the English phrase "I would gladly..." comes across rather clunky in Yélian: The phrase diselivaino pi... has to be used, which literally means "I would be gifted with that...". As in another sentence, the main clause is in the inverse mood; in Yélian, whenever the object of a sentence is 3SG and inanimate ("I would love it"), this has to be changed accordingly, because Yélian lacks object inanimate pronouns and therefore the sentence has to be changed so the 1SG is the object: "It would be loved by me". And lastly, I decided to call the "goddess" by her actual name in the Yélian mythology, the goddess Licene, divine aspect of Duality and Love.

"cilarorceniats o'devian" - literally means "the man who is unknown even to the divine aspect" - even though the questioner doesn't seem to believe in God or any gods (according to another sentence), this is such a set phrase that he propably uses it without thinking about it.
New words for this challenge:
Spoiler:
liýmalas [ˈla̯iːmɐlɐʃ] - mysterious, enigmatic, secret
Etymology: from liymul "strange, weird" + the redundant adjectivizer -as

acadiæsér [ɐˈkaːdɪ̯əˌsed̟] - homeland, home country
Etymology: from acadie "country" + asér "home"

vetalinsé [ˈveːtɐlɨnˌseː] - latitude
Etymology: from veta "sea" + linsé "height"; the ancient kingdom of Shelliania was bordered by the ocean on the north and the plain distance to the sea was important.
Last edited by Iyionaku on 04 Aug 2020 13:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Pāṇini
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Re: L'Étranger

Post by Pāṇini »

Dormouse559 wrote:
02 Aug 2020 07:26
I hope this isn't the last we see of Sicilian Norman [:)] Looks really neat!
I hope so too! Sicilian Norman, natively pateis, is still in its infancy. It's definitely weird. It's a descendant of Old Norman, but under heavy Southern Italian influence due to a bilingual Pateis-Sicilian population.

I really appreciate the suggestions, by the way. I've never really studied French, and I couldn't find a real translation, so I had to make do.

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Iyionaku
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Re: L'Étranger

Post by Iyionaku »

:con: Caelian

"Zan Fanang üvëndar ëbol bye, bordyek lüdmot? Zan Raf Dyong tirraiwy. Bonnuip Zabyeng, mavvui Zabyeng, nommuin Zabyeng ubye nammuin Zabyeng?"
"Rar bonnenglyup, mavvenglyu, nommenglyun ëz nammenglyun bereyöi."
"Hivaruin Zabyeng?"
"Zan matjoz mab, Rahek kyawrom töbyan kyangrënël byü aljaping, bye."
"Agresed Zabyes?"
"Rar vitlosen Tabyas zordos kyangrënël byäi."
"Wanduim?"
"Rar Tang firnat tisüvdir, jäsdestyevëwy më kalkyënëm."
"Gongluiz?"
"Rar Tong ürsil jarsorel josdijewy Zabyer."
"Gosrësët! Pewy Zan Song üvdar bye, bordyek lüdmot?"
"Rar tarübyel juvuder... tarübyel zordagenkyop berjäiz... zordu... tarübyel züngüpat!"

Gloss:
Spoiler:
"Zan Fanang üvëndar ëbol bye, bordyek lüdmot? Zan Raf Dyong tirraiwy. Bonnuip Zabyeng, mavvui Zabyeng, nommuin Zabyeng ubye nammuin Zabyeng?"
[zan βaˈnaŋ yvənˈdaɾ əˈbɔl bʲɛ, bɔɾˈdʲɛk lydˈmɔt? zan raɸ dʲɔŋ tʰiraɪ̯ʋ. bɔˈnuɪ̯p zaˈbʲɛŋ, maˈvuɪ̯ zaˈbʲɛŋ, nɔˈmuɪ̯n zaˈbʲɛŋ uˈbʲɛ naˈmuɪ̯n zaˈbʲɛŋ]
2SG.NOM who-ACC loving.FEM.ELL ELL COP.2SG>3SG, man.NOM strange.MASC.NOM | 2SG.NOM 1SG.DAT DEM.PROX.MASC.ACC tell.1SG>3SG | father.ACC 2SG.GEN>ACC, mother.ACC 2SG.GEN>ACC, brother.ACC 2SG.GEN>ACC or sister.ACC 2SG.GEN>ACC
"Who do you love the most, enigmatic man? Tell me. Your father, your mother, your sister or your brother?"

"Rar bonnenglyup, mavvenglyu, nommenglyun ëz nammenglyun bereyöi."
[ɾah bɔnɛŋˈʎup, mavɛŋˈʎu, nɔmɛŋˈʎun əs namɛŋˈʎun bɛrɛjøɪ̯]
1SG.NOM father.ABE, mother.ABE, brother.ABE and sister.ABE COP.1SG>3PLDEF
"I have no father, nor mother, nor sister, nor brother."

"Hivaruin Zabyeng?"
[hivaˈruɪ̯n zaˈbʲɛŋ]
friend.PL.ACC 2SG.GEN>ACC
Your friends?

"Zan matjoz mab, Rahek kyawrom töbyan kyangrënël byü aljaping, bye."
[zan matˈjɔs mab, raˈhɛk kʲawˈrɔm tʰøˈbʲan kʲaŋrəˈnəl bʲy aljaˈpʰiŋ, bʲɛ]
2SG.NOM word.INST INDEF.FEM.INST, 1SG.BEN meaning.INST REL.GEN knowledge.ADE COP.3SG>1SG today.TERM, COP.2SG>3SG
"You use a word whose meaning, up to today, has been unknown to me.

"Agresed Zabyes?"
[agrɛˈʒɛd saˈbʲɛʃ]
land.DER 2SG.GEN>DER
"Your land you originate from?"

"Rar vitlosen Tabyas zordos kyangrënël byäi."
[rah vitlɔˈʒɛn tʰaˈbʲaʃ zɔɾˈdɔʃ kʲaŋrəˈnəl bʲæɪ̯]
1SG.NOM latitude.SUBL 3SG.FEM.GEN>SUBL about knowledge.ABE COP.1SG>3SG
"I'm without knowledge about its latitude."

"Wanduim?"
[wanˈduɪ̯m]
beauty.ACC
"Beauty?"

"Rar Tang firnat tisüvdir, jäsdestyevëwy më kalkyënëm."
[rah tʰaŋ βiɾˈnat tʰiʃyfˈdiɾ, jæʃdɛʃtʲɛˈvəʋ mə kʰalkʲəˈnəm]
1SG.NOM 3SG.FEM.ACC gladly COND.PST-love.1SG>3SG, god.FEM.DEM.VOC2 INDEF.FEM.VOC death.ABE
"I would have loved her gladly, the goddess without death".

"Gongluiz?"
[gɔŋˈluɪ̯s]
gold.NOM
"Gold?"

"Rar Tong ürsil jarsorel josdijewy Zabyer."
[rah tʰɔŋ yɾˈʒil jaɾʒɔˈɾɛl jɔʃˈdɪ̯ɛʋ zaˈbʲɛɾ]
1SG.NOM 3SG.MASC.ACC hate.1SG>3SG hate.EQU god.GEN 2SG.GEN>EQU
"I hate it, equally to your hate of god."

"Gosrësët! Pewy Zan Song üvdar bye, bordyek lüdmot?"
[gɔʃrəˈʒət! pʰɛʋ zan ʒɔŋ yfˈdaɾ bʲɛ, bɔɾˈdʲɛk lydˈmɔt]
oh! then 2SG.NOM what.ACC loving.FEM COP.2SG>3SG, man.NOM strange.MASC
"Oh! What do you love then, extraordinary stranger?"

"Rar tarübyel juvuder... tarübyel zordagenkyop berjäiz... zordu... tarübyel züngüpat!"
[rah taryˈbʲɛl juvuˈdɛɾ, tʰaryˈbʲɛl zɔɾdagɛŋˈkʲɔp bɛɾˈjæɪ̯s... zɔɾˈdu... tʰaryˈbʲɛl zyŋyˈpʰat]
1SG.NOM cloud.PLDEF love.1SG>3PLDEF... cloud.PLDEF moving.PERL.ALL COP.3PLDEF>3SG... above... cloud.PLDEF marvelous.FEM.PLDEF
""I love the clouds... the clouds that pass... up there... the marvelous clouds!"
I followed the convention that Dormouse described here: The questioner addresses the stranger in familiar terms (i.e. using nominative forms), while the stranger replies in the very formal 2nd vocative.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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