(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Is it likely to have one word in a set loaned and another word not loaned? For example, I loaned one word from another language meaning "bridegroom" and have another word natively derived meaning "bride." I reckon these type of words are usually not loaned individually, but counterexamples would be appreciated.
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
"Wife" and "husband" in English both go back to Old English, but "husband" is often said to come from Old Norse before that. "Father" in Finnish, iso, is inherited, while "mother", äiti, is a borrowing from Germanic, vs. native emä (which apparently now refers to the mothers of animals). I can't think of any other examples off of the top of my head (unless you want to include things like "pork" and "beef" vs. "pig" and "cow" in English as well). I'd imagine they're relatively rare, but they don't seem to be unattested.Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 10:42 Is it likely to have one word in a set loaned and another word not loaned? For example, I loaned one word from another language meaning "bridegroom" and have another word natively derived meaning "bride." I reckon these type of words are usually not loaned individually, but counterexamples would be appreciated.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Awesome, good to know that it is attested. Thanks Sangi.sangi39 wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 14:08"Wife" and "husband" in English both go back to Old English, but "husband" is often said to come from Old Norse before that. "Father" in Finnish, iso, is inherited, while "mother", äiti, is a borrowing from Germanic, vs. native emä (which apparently now refers to the mothers of animals). I can't think of any other examples off of the top of my head (unless you want to include things like "pork" and "beef" vs. "pig" and "cow" in English as well). I'd imagine they're relatively rare, but they don't seem to be unattested.Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 10:42 Is it likely to have one word in a set loaned and another word not loaned? For example, I loaned one word from another language meaning "bridegroom" and have another word natively derived meaning "bride." I reckon these type of words are usually not loaned individually, but counterexamples would be appreciated.
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
The only thing is that I don't know why they were borrowed in that manner (or rather, under what circumstances that sort of borrowing happened, except for the meat vs. animal thing in English). For example, was there a period in the history of Finnish in which women were, in large enough numbers, Germanic-speaking women, or was it borrowed into Finnish for some other reason? (although, I suppose, to what extent that even matters after 2000 years is debatable)Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 20:04Awesome, good to know that it is attested. Thanks Sangi.sangi39 wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 14:08"Wife" and "husband" in English both go back to Old English, but "husband" is often said to come from Old Norse before that. "Father" in Finnish, iso, is inherited, while "mother", äiti, is a borrowing from Germanic, vs. native emä (which apparently now refers to the mothers of animals). I can't think of any other examples off of the top of my head (unless you want to include things like "pork" and "beef" vs. "pig" and "cow" in English as well). I'd imagine they're relatively rare, but they don't seem to be unattested.Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 10:42 Is it likely to have one word in a set loaned and another word not loaned? For example, I loaned one word from another language meaning "bridegroom" and have another word natively derived meaning "bride." I reckon these type of words are usually not loaned individually, but counterexamples would be appreciated.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Actually most words referring to female relatives are borrowedsangi39 wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 21:02The only thing is that I don't know why they were borrowed in that manner (or rather, under what circumstances that sort of borrowing happened, except for the meat vs. animal thing in English). For example, was there a period in the history of Finnish in which women were, in large enough numbers, Germanic-speaking women, or was it borrowed into Finnish for some other reason? (although, I suppose, to what extent that even matters after 2000 years is debatable)Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 20:04Awesome, good to know that it is attested. Thanks Sangi.sangi39 wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 14:08"Wife" and "husband" in English both go back to Old English, but "husband" is often said to come from Old Norse before that. "Father" in Finnish, iso, is inherited, while "mother", äiti, is a borrowing from Germanic, vs. native emä (which apparently now refers to the mothers of animals). I can't think of any other examples off of the top of my head (unless you want to include things like "pork" and "beef" vs. "pig" and "cow" in English as well). I'd imagine they're relatively rare, but they don't seem to be unattested.Ælfwine wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020 10:42 Is it likely to have one word in a set loaned and another word not loaned? For example, I loaned one word from another language meaning "bridegroom" and have another word natively derived meaning "bride." I reckon these type of words are usually not loaned individually, but counterexamples would be appreciated.
Äiti 'mother' Germanic, isä ' father' Uralic
Sisar (sisko being some diminutive) 'sister' Baltic, veli 'brother' Uralic
Tytär 'daughter' from some IE lang, poika 'son' Uralic
täti 'aunt' borrowed from somewhere, setä, eno 'uncle' uralic
Anoppi and appi 'mother and father in law' are both Uralic.
I don't know what is the origin of the words referring to other in-law relatives. Finnish has many of them though they are rarely used: nato, käly, miniä, kyty, lanko, vävy.
Iso 'father' is used in Kalevala. The usual word is isä. Iso means 'big'.
Actually, there is some genetic research that y-chromosome line of most Finns comes from the east and the mitochondria line comes from the west. But I think it's never been connected to family words.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Yiddish is also a good example. (especially the Southeast dialect group, which I am most familiar with, and which I will be using) The normal word for "mother" is /mɪtr̩/, of Germanic stock, but "father" is /tatə/, from an unknown Slavic language. /futr̩/ is also a synonym, but in the SE dialect group, it is rare. See also, the word for " in-law" /mɪxitn̩/ (m) /mɪxitnɛstɛ/ (f), from (Though the F form has a Slavic gender suffix), while the word for the specifics are from Germanic (/ʃver/ "Father-in-law" /ʃvɪgr̩/ "Mother-in-law"). Meanwhile, the words for "son" and "daughter" are both Germanic, while the words for "Grandfather" and "Grandmother" are both Slavic.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
In the specific case of 'asymmetrical' borrowing of kin terms and the like, I'd suggest three motivations:
a) as pointed out, male and female lines often come from different communities; mothers, in particular, can easily introduce loanwords from their mother-tongues related to mothers, aunts, grandmothers and so forth.
b) different linguistic communities can have different social structures. If a language tends to group female kin together in relatively few terms, for example, it may be relatively receptive to borrowing more technical kin vocabulary from a neighbour when the social structure changes.
c) probably the biggest thing is politeness and formality. Loanwords often have a higher register, and hence their use can signify respect or formality. As an example in English of loaning of kin terms, see (highly Anglicised pronunciations of) 'mater' and 'pater' among upper-class English prior to a few generations ago, and the more widespread borrowing of Romance 'pa'. Although in the mater/pater case it's both genders (although my impression is that 'mater' was much more common), it's not unusual for women, particularly female kin, to be referred to more respectfully, both as part of a general ethos of chivalry, and as a strategy to avoid pissing violent men off by talking the wrong way about their mothers and sisters...
a) as pointed out, male and female lines often come from different communities; mothers, in particular, can easily introduce loanwords from their mother-tongues related to mothers, aunts, grandmothers and so forth.
b) different linguistic communities can have different social structures. If a language tends to group female kin together in relatively few terms, for example, it may be relatively receptive to borrowing more technical kin vocabulary from a neighbour when the social structure changes.
c) probably the biggest thing is politeness and formality. Loanwords often have a higher register, and hence their use can signify respect or formality. As an example in English of loaning of kin terms, see (highly Anglicised pronunciations of) 'mater' and 'pater' among upper-class English prior to a few generations ago, and the more widespread borrowing of Romance 'pa'. Although in the mater/pater case it's both genders (although my impression is that 'mater' was much more common), it's not unusual for women, particularly female kin, to be referred to more respectfully, both as part of a general ethos of chivalry, and as a strategy to avoid pissing violent men off by talking the wrong way about their mothers and sisters...
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I thought I would be able to find a language that doesn't mark past-tense, having past-tense as the default, but marks non-past.
But I couldn't find any, or any discussion about it. Does it happen though?
But I couldn't find any, or any discussion about it. Does it happen though?
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I assume so, but can't cite you. Have you tried the Raritatenkabinett?jimydog000 wrote: ↑30 Jul 2020 11:46 I thought I would be able to find a language that doesn't mark past-tense, having past-tense as the default, but marks non-past.
But I couldn't find any, or any discussion about it. Does it happen though?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
There's a phrase consisting of two or more words in the object language and a basic root in the metalanguage, and they have the same meaning. For example, I can imagine a singular word that means "rocking chair"; alternatively, in itota itiko "itota itiko" means "language". How do I gloss this?
216 always explains everything. ilaki onito itota ti ji ji ti akina itota ma. 216 всегда всё объясняет.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Assuming each of the object-language words has individual meaning, I would gloss that. So if I were glossing "rocking chair" in Spanish, I'd write:littlesalmon wrote: ↑31 Jul 2020 18:29 There's a phrase consisting of two or more words in the object language and a basic root in the metalanguage, and they have the same meaning. For example, I can imagine a singular word that means "rocking chair"; alternatively, in itota itiko "itota itiko" means "language". How do I gloss this?
rocking chair
rock-ing chair
mecer-PTCP.PRS silla
mecedora
If the words don't have individual meaning, the closest thing I can find in the Leipzig Glossing Rules is Rule 8, on bipartite elements, where they say to either repeat the gloss, or gloss the first element in the metalanguage and the second element as a "special label", perhaps its grammatical category. These are their examples using the bipartite Lakhota stem na-xʔu̧ 'hear':
EDIT: switching my "rocking chair" example to Spanish since it has a one-word translation(24) Lakhota
na-wíčha-wa-xʔu̧
hear-3PL.UND-1SG.ACT-hear
'I hear them' (UND = undergoer, ACT = actor)
(25) Lakhota
na-wíčha-wa-xʔu̧
hear-3PL.UND-1SG.ACT- STEM
'I hear them'
Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
In that situation, you typically provide a separate gloss of each word, effectively showing the literal expression in the object language.
For example, "Latin" (the language) in Latin as a noun phrase must sometimes be expressed as two words:
linguae latīnae oblīvīscor
tongue.SG.GEN Latin.FEM.SG.GEN forget.PRES.INDIC.1SG
'I'm forgetting Latin'
Or, more simply, you could write:
tongue.GEN Latin.FEM.SG.GEN forget.1SG
If it involves synonyms (e.g. "cease and desist, will and testament"), then you simply repeat the metalanguage gloss as appropriate:
id dissertō et tractō
it.ACC explain.1SG and explain.1SG
For example, "Latin" (the language) in Latin as a noun phrase must sometimes be expressed as two words:
linguae latīnae oblīvīscor
tongue.SG.GEN Latin.FEM.SG.GEN forget.PRES.INDIC.1SG
'I'm forgetting Latin'
Or, more simply, you could write:
tongue.GEN Latin.FEM.SG.GEN forget.1SG
If it involves synonyms (e.g. "cease and desist, will and testament"), then you simply repeat the metalanguage gloss as appropriate:
id dissertō et tractō
it.ACC explain.1SG and explain.1SG
hīc sunt linguificēs. hēr bēoþ tungemakeras.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I meant that the words don't have individual meaning. And I've seen this in the Leipzig glossing rules, but I don't know if it quite works. Maybe if combined with the space-and-hyphen for morphologically bound, but phonetically separate morphemes, like that:
itot-a -itik-o
language-NM-language-ADJM
Though now I realized that in the thing that I wanted to gloss in the first place the words do have individual meaning:
itot-a itik-o
concept-NM language-ADJM
Anyway, thank you.
itot-a -itik-o
language-NM-language-ADJM
Though now I realized that in the thing that I wanted to gloss in the first place the words do have individual meaning:
itot-a itik-o
concept-NM language-ADJM
Anyway, thank you.
Edit: Literal translation works, actually, and I realized it yourself just as you (Ser) were writing this, but, anyway, thank you.
216 always explains everything. ilaki onito itota ti ji ji ti akina itota ma. 216 всегда всё объясняет.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I think this is common actually, especially the past-tense as default part. This often happens in languages that do not have inflectional tense marking. I read a paper on Balinese and the unmarked forms where translated as past tense, whereas TAM particles could change this to present progressive or perfect translations. I am pretty sure there are more such languages, but I am only judging from translations so far. I guess someone must have done research on it. Lisa Matthewson's research group might be a good place to start.jimydog000 wrote: ↑30 Jul 2020 11:46 I thought I would be able to find a language that doesn't mark past-tense, having past-tense as the default, but marks non-past.
But I couldn't find any, or any discussion about it. Does it happen though?
Do you mean when two words in the target language can only be translated as one word in the metalanguage? This is actually a gap in the Leipzig Glossing Rules. My professor suggested the hash mark on the target language line to join the two words, like some people do in phonology.littlesalmon wrote: ↑31 Jul 2020 19:51 I meant that the words don't have individual meaning. And I've seen this in the Leipzig glossing rules, but I don't know if it quite works. Maybe if combined with the space-and-hyphen for morphologically bound, but phonetically separate morphemes, like that:
itot-a -itik-o
language-NM-language-ADJM
Though now I realized that in the thing that I wanted to gloss in the first place the words do have individual meaning:
itot-a itik-o
concept-NM language-ADJM
Anyway, thank you.
Edit: Literal translation works, actually, and I realized it yourself just as you (Ser) were writing this, but, anyway, thank you.
Creyeditor
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
I'd note that there's a difference here between a language with compulsory tense, but with the past zero-marked, and a language with optional tense marking, in which the unmarked forms are often translated into English as past-tense. Both probably happen, but I'd guess that the latter happens much more often than the former...Creyeditor wrote: ↑31 Jul 2020 23:00I think this is common actually, especially the past-tense as default part. This often happens in languages that do not have inflectional tense marking. I read a paper on Balinese and the unmarked forms where translated as past tense, whereas TAM particles could change this to present progressive or perfect translations. I am pretty sure there are more such languages, but I am only judging from translations so far. I guess someone must have done research on it. Lisa Matthewson's research group might be a good place to start.jimydog000 wrote: ↑30 Jul 2020 11:46 I thought I would be able to find a language that doesn't mark past-tense, having past-tense as the default, but marks non-past.
But I couldn't find any, or any discussion about it. Does it happen though?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
That's actually a really good idea. I'll probably use this if I'll ever actually run into this problem; anyway, thank you.Creyeditor wrote: ↑31 Jul 2020 23:00 Do you mean when two words in the target language can only be translated as one word in the metalanguage? This is actually a gap in the Leipzig Glossing Rules. My professor suggested the hash mark on the target language line to join the two words, like some people do in phonology.
Edit: Alternatively, as an extension of rule 4A, the underscore can probably be used. This is what feels most natural to me now, and this is what I'm using. This is here for anyone who may be experiencing this problem in the future and who might search this topic to find out.
Last edited by littlesalmon on 02 Aug 2020 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
216 always explains everything. ilaki onito itota ti ji ji ti akina itota ma. 216 всегда всё объясняет.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
My settings Catfolk language has an assimulating <l>, as described below. Is it described correctly? If not, how should I be describing it?
[l̪, l, ʟ] are in complementary distribution with [l̪], occurring adjacent to [f, v], [l] adjacent to [t, ɗ, s, z] or at the beginning or end of a word, and [ʟ] adjacent to [k, g, w].
[l̪, l, ʟ] are in complementary distribution with [l̪], occurring adjacent to [f, v], [l] adjacent to [t, ɗ, s, z] or at the beginning or end of a word, and [ʟ] adjacent to [k, g, w].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Can any of the three (or even two out of the three) appear intervocalically? Are there any other consonants that all three (or again, even two out of the three) can occur next to?yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑02 Aug 2020 14:42 My settings Catfolk language has an assimulating <l>, as described below. Is it described correctly? If not, how should I be describing it?
[l̪, l, ʟ] are in complementary distribution with [l̪], occurring adjacent to [f, v], [l] adjacent to [t, ɗ, s, z] or at the beginning or end of a word, and [ʟ] adjacent to [k, g, w].
If not, then yes, it sounds like [l̪ l ʟ] are all in complementary distribution with one another, meaning they could be seen as allophones of a single phoneme /l/.
However, for clarity's sake, I would recommend moving the position of the first comma in your description to immediately after the word "distribution":
[l̪, l, ʟ] are in complementary distribution, with [l̪] occurring adjacent to [f, v], [l] adjacent to [t, ɗ, s, z] or at the beginning or end of a word, and [ʟ] adjacent to [k, g, w].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
For context, "[l]" is used in this response where necessary because it's the most common phone. Actually, I hadn't thought about [l]'s intervocalic phone for some reason, but it'd be either [l̪] or [l]. [l] only occurs adjacent to [m, ŋ] in compounds, where it's unchanged because of phonotactics.shimobaatar wrote: ↑02 Aug 2020 16:10Can any of the three (or even two out of the three) appear intervocalically? Are there any other consonants that all three (or again, even two out of the three) can occur next to?yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑02 Aug 2020 14:42 My settings Catfolk language has an assimulating <l>, as described below. Is it described correctly? If not, how should I be describing it?
[l̪, l, ʟ] are in complementary distribution with [l̪], occurring adjacent to [f, v], [l] adjacent to [t, ɗ, s, z] or at the beginning or end of a word, and [ʟ] adjacent to [k, g, w].
If not, then yes, it sounds like [l̪ l ʟ] are all in complementary distribution with one another, meaning they could be seen as allophones of a single phoneme /l/.
However, for clarity's sake, I would recommend moving the position of the first comma in your description to immediately after the word "distribution":
[l̪, l, ʟ] are in complementary distribution, with [l̪] occurring adjacent to [f, v], [l] adjacent to [t, ɗ, s, z] or at the beginning or end of a word, and [ʟ] adjacent to [k, g, w].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
So either [l̪] or [l] can occur intervocalically, but can the occurrence of one as opposed to the other potentially change the meaning of a word or morpheme? For example, using V to stand for any vowel, could [Vl̪V] and [VlV] be different words/morphemes in this language?yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑02 Aug 2020 17:33 Actually, I hadn't thought about [l]'s intervocalic phone for some reason, but it'd be either [l̪] or [l].
If so, then [l̪] and [l] are in contrastive distribution intervocalically, and I'd describe them as the intervocalic realizations/allophones of two separate phonemes /l̪/ and /l/, even if the distinction between these two phonemes seems to be neutralized in most other environments.
If, however, [Vl̪V] and [VlV] are just two possible pronunciations of the same word/morpheme, then it sounds like [l̪] and [l] are in free variation intervocalically. In that case, I'd still describe them as allophones of a single phoneme /l/.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean that it's unchanged because of phonotactics. However, if only [l] can occur adjacent to [m] or [ŋ], then it still sounds like [l̪ l ʟ] are all allophones of a single phoneme.yangfiretiger121 wrote: ↑02 Aug 2020 17:33 [l] only occurs adjacent to [m, ŋ] in compounds, where it's unchanged because of phonotactics.