How necessary are noun cases?
- rainbowcult
- rupestrian
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How necessary are noun cases?
This is going to sound really ignorant, but isn't still understandable without them? English doesn't seem to have a lot of examples to give, but in the sentence "I hug him" why is it that important to say 'him' instead of 'he'? Just saying "I hug he" sounds grammatically incorrect, but it's still understandable. Is there any real need to add cases? Isn't that what word order/syntax (?) is for?
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- LinguistCat
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
English isn't a good example of a language with noun cases, because it only has noun cases when it comes to some pronouns. And even then, very few of them. English does mostly use word order to show the role of a word in a statement. However, languages that use noun cases more frequently -especially along with some kind of agreement system- can greatly free up word order, while still keeping sentences understandable.
There are a lot of other neat things that languages can do with cases, like making useful distinctions between location and motion while still using a small set of pre- or postpositions. But I'm not an expert in that area.
Noun cases aren't necessary cross-linguistically, and there are languages that don't have them at all but they do have their uses.
There are a lot of other neat things that languages can do with cases, like making useful distinctions between location and motion while still using a small set of pre- or postpositions. But I'm not an expert in that area.
Noun cases aren't necessary cross-linguistically, and there are languages that don't have them at all but they do have their uses.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Kankonian (my biggest conlang) does without noun cases. Nominative is indicated by coming before the verb, and accusative by coming after the verb.
All other cases are simply marked by a preposition:
shakti na Dan
house of Dan
Dan's house
helemas ad donam
mother to president
the president's mother
slakhet ad is shai*ap
throw-IMPRTV to 1s ball
throw me the ball
zhered zash Zach ad is
brother APPOS Zach to 1s
my brother Zach
e karg
in box
in the box
Zha Kate, ar as meshi ad is.
VOC Kate 2s PRS friend to 1s
Kate, you are my friend.
Dartz id hen en kasht.
steal done_to money PST wrong
Stealing the money was wrong.
Mopiga tethesizen dyu geter.
woman kill-PSV-PST by soldier
The woman was killed by the soldier.
All other cases are simply marked by a preposition:
shakti na Dan
house of Dan
Dan's house
helemas ad donam
mother to president
the president's mother
slakhet ad is shai*ap
throw-IMPRTV to 1s ball
throw me the ball
zhered zash Zach ad is
brother APPOS Zach to 1s
my brother Zach
e karg
in box
in the box
Zha Kate, ar as meshi ad is.
VOC Kate 2s PRS friend to 1s
Kate, you are my friend.
Dartz id hen en kasht.
steal done_to money PST wrong
Stealing the money was wrong.
Mopiga tethesizen dyu geter.
woman kill-PSV-PST by soldier
The woman was killed by the soldier.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
- eldin raigmore
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Another reason English doesn’t need noun-cases is its very large inventory of adpositions.LinguistCat wrote: ↑23 Sep 2020 00:34 English isn't a good example of a language with noun cases, because it only has noun cases when it comes to some pronouns. And even then, very few of them. English does mostly use word order to show the role of a word in a statement. However, languages that use noun cases more frequently -especially along with some kind of agreement system- can greatly free up word order, while still keeping sentences understandable.
There are a lot of other neat things that languages can do with cases, like making useful distinctions between location and motion while still using a small set of pre- or postpositions. But I'm not an expert in that area.
Noun cases aren't necessary cross-linguistically, and there are languages that don't have them at all but they do have their uses.
We have about fifty prepositions, probably more than one postpositions, and maybe a few oddities that are best thought of as adpositions but not prepositions and not postpositions.
That seems — to me — to be implicit in what LinguistCat said, but I thought it worth saying explicitly.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Morphological noun cases are not necessary. They just appear over time. And when they appear, they have advantages.rainbowcult wrote: ↑22 Sep 2020 23:46 This is going to sound really ignorant, but isn't still understandable without them? English doesn't seem to have a lot of examples to give, but in the sentence "I hug him" why is it that important to say 'him' instead of 'he'? Just saying "I hug he" sounds grammatically incorrect, but it's still understandable. Is there any real need to add cases? Isn't that what word order/syntax (?) is for?
In English, case has few advantages, because case is only distinguished on pronouns - so the system has to be set up to be able to deal with caseless nouns. Case on pronouns is mostly just vestigial in English (though there are occasional sentences where it clears up an ambiguity). It also provides redundancy (the principle that languages like to mark things in multiple ways, to double-check, as it were, in case the listener isn't paying attention).
However, other languages don't have English's rigid word order and vast array of compound prepositions and other grammatical words and verb forms.
Consider a sentence like:
The man in the dark jacket is who the builder punched!
Wow, that's pointlessly complicated! Why is there a copula and an entire relative clause? Well, because I want to emphasise 'the man in the dark jacket' (as opposed to anyone else). "The builder punched the man in the dark jacket", though, places the emphasis squarely on the builder. [I could also have gone with "the man in the dark jacket was punched by the builder", in the passive, with a slightly different nuance but similar function]. What most languages would naturally do is simply move that phrase to the front. But English can't do that, because it relies on word order to indicate case. But if we had overt case affixes, we could instead say:
The man-ACC in the dark jacket the builder punched, vs
The builder punched the man-ACC in the dark jacket
...so the focus changes, but the sentence doesn't get any more complicated. No passives needed, no relative clauses.
Or consider this, with no overt cases:
I handed the accountant who owns the cat that was eaten by the dog belonging to the florist who lives in front of the station to the police
Confusing and complicated (and note how you don't know whether the accountant is the direct object (handed to the police) or the indirect object (handed a book) until the very end of the sentence! And by the time you reach the police, you've forgotten what they're doing in the sentence!). Now, add cases:
I handed the police-DAT the accountant-ACC who-GEN cat-ACC ate dog-NOM florist-GEN residing station-PRO
--------
Equally if not more importantly: if nouns are case-marked, it instantly gives adjectives something to lock onto, freeing them up too.
So say you want to say "the large man ate the sandwich" or "the man ate the large sandwich", but want to focus on the size. You can't do this without either a complicated sentence structure, or the rather primitive measure of saying the word 'large' very loudly and slowly. But if you have case you can easily say either:
large-NOM man-NOM ate sandwich-ACC
or
large-ACC man-NOM ate sandwich-ACC
Here's a particularly efficient demonstration of several points at once. First, we want to say that specifically the LARGE man who hates Malcolm, not the one who loves him, who ate the sandwich. Then we want to say that Malcolm (not Michael) hates the man and the sandwich is the large one (not the small one!).
1: It was the large man who hates Malcolm who ate the sandwich
2: It was the large sandwich that was eaten by the man that Malcolm hates
So, in 1, we have two relative clauses and a dummy pronoun, we have an ambiguity (is it the man or Malcolm who ate the Sandwich?), and we've still had to resort to speaking loudly and slowly. We've also had to stick a relative clause right in the middle of our main clause, which is confusing. And we have exactly the same problems in 2 also (and even worse ambiguity!), and we don't even have 1 and 2 with the same syntax because we've had to move the relative around.
Whereas with cases:
1: large-NOM sandwich-ACC ate man-NOM that-NOM hate Malcolm-ACC
2: large-ACC man-NOM ate sandwich-ACC that-ACC Malcolm-NOM hate
Now we have a much simpler sentence structure with no dummy pronouns and only one relative, which is neatly tucked away at the end in both sentences, and we have no ambiguity.
- eldin raigmore
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
So; not necessary, but occasionally danged useful.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
In the Landau Core Vocabulary category named "Prepositions or Postpositions and Cases", I list the following entries:
(I realize the last four entries aren't really adpositions, but I had to put them somewhere.)
That gives us the following 65 one-word English preposition words:
a/an
about
above
across
after
against
along
alongside
among
around
as
at
atop
before
behind
below
beneath
beside
besides
between
beyond
but
by
despite
down
during
except
for
from
in
including
inside
into
like
near
of
off
on
onto
out
outside
over
past
per
regarding
round
since
through
throughout
till
to
towards
under
underneath
unlike
until
up
upon
versus/vs.
via
whatever
with
within
without
worth
And the following 40 multi-word prepositions:
according to
ahead of
as for
aside from
as many as
as of
as opposed to
as well as
at least
at the rate of
away from
because of
by means of
counter to
depending on
due to
except for
for the sake of
full of
in addition to
in exchange for
in front of
in reach of
instead of
in terms of
limited to
next to
no matter
on top of
other than
out of
out of reach of
prior to
regardless of
such as
thanks to
to the left of
to the right of
up to
within reach of
And the 3 postpositions:
ago
at most
from now
And also the 5 circumpositions:
as far as ____ is concerned
at ____'s
from ____ on
with ____ off
with ____ on
If you add in all those formal multi-word prepositions, like "with regard to" or "by dint of", that don't figure in the LCV, or some exotic one-word prepositions like "chez" or "qua", or hyphenated prepositions like "vis-à-vis", you can increase the number of English prepositions even more.
So eldin's "about fifty" was a bit of an underestimate, but his point stands!
Spoiler:
That gives us the following 65 one-word English preposition words:
a/an
about
above
across
after
against
along
alongside
among
around
as
at
atop
before
behind
below
beneath
beside
besides
between
beyond
but
by
despite
down
during
except
for
from
in
including
inside
into
like
near
of
off
on
onto
out
outside
over
past
per
regarding
round
since
through
throughout
till
to
towards
under
underneath
unlike
until
up
upon
versus/vs.
via
whatever
with
within
without
worth
And the following 40 multi-word prepositions:
according to
ahead of
as for
aside from
as many as
as of
as opposed to
as well as
at least
at the rate of
away from
because of
by means of
counter to
depending on
due to
except for
for the sake of
full of
in addition to
in exchange for
in front of
in reach of
instead of
in terms of
limited to
next to
no matter
on top of
other than
out of
out of reach of
prior to
regardless of
such as
thanks to
to the left of
to the right of
up to
within reach of
And the 3 postpositions:
ago
at most
from now
And also the 5 circumpositions:
as far as ____ is concerned
at ____'s
from ____ on
with ____ off
with ____ on
If you add in all those formal multi-word prepositions, like "with regard to" or "by dint of", that don't figure in the LCV, or some exotic one-word prepositions like "chez" or "qua", or hyphenated prepositions like "vis-à-vis", you can increase the number of English prepositions even more.
So eldin's "about fifty" was a bit of an underestimate, but his point stands!
♂♥♂♀
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
- Creyeditor
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Just a thought: Neither is almost any other grammatical category. There are languages without tense for example. And they just do fine.rainbowcult wrote: ↑22 Sep 2020 23:46 This is going to sound really ignorant, but isn't still understandable without them? English doesn't seem to have a lot of examples to give, but in the sentence "I hug him" why is it that important to say 'him' instead of 'he'? Just saying "I hug he" sounds grammatically incorrect, but it's still understandable. Is there any real need to add cases? Isn't that what word order/syntax (?) is for?
Last edited by Creyeditor on 23 Sep 2020 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Grammatical theory? Did you mean grammatical category?Creyeditor wrote: ↑23 Sep 2020 19:21Just a thought: Neither is almost any other grammatical theory. There are languages without tense for example. And they just do fine.rainbowcult wrote: ↑22 Sep 2020 23:46 This is going to sound really ignorant, but isn't still understandable without them? English doesn't seem to have a lot of examples to give, but in the sentence "I hug him" why is it that important to say 'him' instead of 'he'? Just saying "I hug he" sounds grammatically incorrect, but it's still understandable. Is there any real need to add cases? Isn't that what word order/syntax (?) is for?
♂♥♂♀
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels
My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting
31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
- Creyeditor
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Yes, fixedKhemehekis wrote: ↑23 Sep 2020 19:30Grammatical theory? Did you mean grammatical category?Creyeditor wrote: ↑23 Sep 2020 19:21Just a thought: Neither is almost any other grammatical theory. There are languages without tense for example. And they just do fine.rainbowcult wrote: ↑22 Sep 2020 23:46 This is going to sound really ignorant, but isn't still understandable without them? English doesn't seem to have a lot of examples to give, but in the sentence "I hug him" why is it that important to say 'him' instead of 'he'? Just saying "I hug he" sounds grammatically incorrect, but it's still understandable. Is there any real need to add cases? Isn't that what word order/syntax (?) is for?
![:D [:D]](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin2.png)
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
I think "case languages" are actually simpler than those without.
In "case languages" cases express semantic roles (who does and who is done to) and word order expresses topicality (about whom the clause is about). Of course, cases can well be adpositions rather than morphological cases.
Boring Finnish examples
(1)
Tyttö pussasi poikaa.
girl.NOM kissed boy.ACC*
'The girl kissed the boy. (This clause is about the girl, and kissing the boy is what she did.)
(2)
Poikaa pussasi tyttö.
boy.ACC* kissed girl.NOM
'The boy was kissed by the girl.' (This clause is about the boy, and being kissed is what happened.)
In a language like English, things get messy because word order must code two things together. Translating (2), you already have to play with a passive, which is much more complicated than just changing word order.
*Actually the object case is called Partitive but ignore it.
In "case languages" cases express semantic roles (who does and who is done to) and word order expresses topicality (about whom the clause is about). Of course, cases can well be adpositions rather than morphological cases.
Boring Finnish examples
(1)
Tyttö pussasi poikaa.
girl.NOM kissed boy.ACC*
'The girl kissed the boy. (This clause is about the girl, and kissing the boy is what she did.)
(2)
Poikaa pussasi tyttö.
boy.ACC* kissed girl.NOM
'The boy was kissed by the girl.' (This clause is about the boy, and being kissed is what happened.)
In a language like English, things get messy because word order must code two things together. Translating (2), you already have to play with a passive, which is much more complicated than just changing word order.
*Actually the object case is called Partitive but ignore it.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
- eldin raigmore
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
So kissing the boy is like tasting the cake?“Omzinesy’” wrote: *Actually the object case is called Partitive but ignore it
She actually partakes of him?
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- DesEsseintes
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
It’s worth pointing out here that there are languages with robust case systems, like Icelandic, that nevertheless don’t do this. Although some movement is allowed in poetic styles, sentences like this just don’t occur in normal speech:Omzinesý wrote: ↑28 Sep 2020 14:24 I think "case languages" are actually simpler than those without.
In "case languages" cases express semantic roles (who does and who is done to) and word order expresses topicality (about whom the clause is about). Of course, cases can well be adpositions rather than morphological cases.
*Stúlkuna kyssti drengurinn.
girl-ACC-DEF kiss-PST.3SG boy-NOM-DEF
The boy kissed the girl.
Instead, stress, intonation, and periphrastic strategies are used to indicate topic and focus, much like in English. So just because case allows you to use word order that way doesn’t necessarily mean it will be used that way.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Doesn't Icelandic do object shift though? I am not an expert on Icelandic, but if it would lead to variable word order, that is at least something that is easier to do, if you have case marking.
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- DesEsseintes
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
Can you give me an example of the kind of object shift you are thinking of?Creyeditor wrote: ↑29 Sep 2020 09:52 Doesn't Icelandic do object shift though? I am not an expert on Icelandic, but if it would lead to variable word order, that is at least something that is easier to do, if you have case marking.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
I was thinking of a pai of sentences like the following, where the order of negation and object can be reversed. I don't know if this can apply to the order of direct and indirect objects in Icelandic though.
Nemandinn las ekki bókina.
student.DEF read not book.DEF
"The student did not read the book"
Nemandinn las bókina ekki.
student.DEF read not book.DEF
"The student did not read the book"
German dependent clauses allow for such a variation. This is often called scrambling.
..., dass Uwe dem Lehrer den Hund schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.DAT teacher DEF.ACC dog give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
..., dass Uwe den Hund dem Lehrer schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.ACC dog DEF.DAT teacher give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
Nemandinn las ekki bókina.
student.DEF read not book.DEF
"The student did not read the book"
Nemandinn las bókina ekki.
student.DEF read not book.DEF
"The student did not read the book"
German dependent clauses allow for such a variation. This is often called scrambling.
..., dass Uwe dem Lehrer den Hund schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.DAT teacher DEF.ACC dog give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
..., dass Uwe den Hund dem Lehrer schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.ACC dog DEF.DAT teacher give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
German is actually a good example for what DesEsseintes said too. Even though German features mandatory case marking and verbal marking of person and number, the word order is anything but free. Verbs are fixed in second position (in main clauses) or last position (in subordinate clauses) and noun clauses are not completely free in their order either. For example,Creyeditor wrote: ↑29 Sep 2020 17:02 German dependent clauses allow for such a variation. This is often called scrambling.
..., dass Uwe dem Lehrer den Hund schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.DAT teacher DEF.ACC dog give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
..., dass Uwe den Hund dem Lehrer schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.ACC dog DEF.DAT teacher give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
Ich gebe dir das Buch.
1SG.NOM give.1SG 2SG.DAT INDEF.NEUT.ACC book.ACC
I give you the book.
is possible, whereas
*Ich gebe das Buch dir.
1SG.NOM give.1SG INDEF.NEUT.ACC book.ACC 2SG.DAT
isn't, and neither is
*Dir gebe das Buch ich.
2SG.DAT give.1SG INDEF.NEUT.ACC book.ACC 1SG.NOM
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.
Re: How necessary are noun cases?
I agree with your point, but with emphasis on the first part, these two are possible, right?
Das Buch gebe ich dir.
Dir gebe ich das Buch.
In Scandinavian, such frontings are common, despite there not being either case marking on nouns or number agreement on verbs. (Which in a way makes it a semi-counterexample to the main point of the discussion)
I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing that one of the reasons for the Germanic languages developing a fairly strict word order is the high level of syncretism. Like German only marks the accusative case on masculine nouns, and the personal agreement usually only has 4 forms for 6 number/person combos in any given tense.
Das Buch gebe ich dir.
Dir gebe ich das Buch.
In Scandinavian, such frontings are common, despite there not being either case marking on nouns or number agreement on verbs. (Which in a way makes it a semi-counterexample to the main point of the discussion)
I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing that one of the reasons for the Germanic languages developing a fairly strict word order is the high level of syncretism. Like German only marks the accusative case on masculine nouns, and the personal agreement usually only has 4 forms for 6 number/person combos in any given tense.
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
I agree that the idea of free word order is too simplistic. I think it makes more sense to think of it in term of constraints on possible word orders and specific word order alternations in specific contexts. As Aevas pointed out, a lot of possible sequences are possible, but conditioned by prosody/information structure. Also there is a difference between (some) pronouns and full noun phrases, IINM.Iyionaku wrote: ↑05 Oct 2020 09:43German is actually a good example for what DesEsseintes said too. Even though German features mandatory case marking and verbal marking of person and number, the word order is anything but free. Verbs are fixed in second position (in main clauses) or last position (in subordinate clauses) and noun clauses are not completely free in their order either. For example,Creyeditor wrote: ↑29 Sep 2020 17:02 German dependent clauses allow for such a variation. This is often called scrambling.
..., dass Uwe dem Lehrer den Hund schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.DAT teacher DEF.ACC dog give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
..., dass Uwe den Hund dem Lehrer schenkt.
that Uwe DEF.ACC dog DEF.DAT teacher give.as.a.present
"..., that Uwe gives a dog to the teacher (as a present)."
Ich gebe dir das Buch.
1SG.NOM give.1SG 2SG.DAT INDEF.NEUT.ACC book.ACC
I give you the book.
is possible, whereas
*Ich gebe das Buch dir.
1SG.NOM give.1SG INDEF.NEUT.ACC book.ACC 2SG.DAT
isn't, and neither is
*Dir gebe das Buch ich.
2SG.DAT give.1SG INDEF.NEUT.ACC book.ACC 1SG.NOM
Creyeditor
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Re: How necessary are noun cases?
I might put it the other way around: the idea of fixed word order is too simplistic. I think there are languages with free or virtually free word order (at least once 'word' has been adequately defined for the purpose). But I'm not sure there are any languages with entirely fixed word order. Instead, non-free languages have one or more core word orders, but then a series of deviation rules that allow a variety of alternative orders to be produced in certain circumstances.
In terms of the relationship with cases, I'd go back to what I said originally: cases just develop, they don't develop in order to free up word order. However, when you have cases, it enables freer word order - whether or not the language has (yet) taken advantage of that opportunity. Or rather, it makes freer word order less problematic - that is, more stable. You can, after all, get by with neither cases nor fixed word order, but just guesswork and vocal emphasis - but such a situation is likely to be unstable, as more regular methods of disambiguation become established.
In terms of the relationship with cases, I'd go back to what I said originally: cases just develop, they don't develop in order to free up word order. However, when you have cases, it enables freer word order - whether or not the language has (yet) taken advantage of that opportunity. Or rather, it makes freer word order less problematic - that is, more stable. You can, after all, get by with neither cases nor fixed word order, but just guesswork and vocal emphasis - but such a situation is likely to be unstable, as more regular methods of disambiguation become established.