So, just for fun, I decided to give it another go based on the feedback I got here. I'm not sure whether or not to post it, though, since the final round is so close to being over, and since sangi39, jimydog000, ɶʙ ɞʛ, and/or anyone else may still want to submit their own guesses. Should I just go ahead and post it now, wait a day or two, or wait until the answers have been revealed?Ratsawn wrote: ↑27 Sep 2020 21:28 In response to Shimobaatar's most recent post:
[…]
Shimobaatar correctly guessed words 2, 3, and 4. If anybody thinks they can get all four, then good luck. In a week or so, if nobody has guessed all four words correctly, I'll declare Shimobaatar the winner and reveal the true proto-forms and sound changes.
Quick Diachronics Challenge
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm, annoyingly, not able to throw myself at a final attempt (forgot it was my turn for home-working shifts, lol), so I don't think I'll be able to get another guess in this week. I know I'm not the closest, but I'm happy to settle with what I have
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
You can post it now, unless someone else objects.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Good luck with your work!
I've put my revised guesses for the 4 proto-forms under the first spoiler, while my complete thoughts, so to speak, are under the second spoiler below.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Congratulations to Shimobaatar! You have correctly guessed all four words, and (and at this I am especially surprised) EVERY SINGLE ONE of the intermediary forms. Great work, this was so fun for me and I hope it was fun for y'all. I can't wait to participate in the next challenge, Shimobaatar.
The words were:
1: [ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ] 2: [pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə] 3: [ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ] 4: [ˈqah.han̥]
Forms and sound changes belowː
The words were:
1: [ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ] 2: [pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə] 3: [ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ] 4: [ˈqah.han̥]
Forms and sound changes belowː
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Oh wow, thank you! Your responses after each round were very helpful. This was indeed a lot of fun! Thanks as well for laying out all of the sound changes involved.Ratsawn wrote: ↑30 Sep 2020 20:36 Congratulations to Shimobaatar! You have correctly guessed all four words, and (and at this I am especially surprised) EVERY SINGLE ONE of the intermediary forms. Great work, this was so fun for me and I hope it was fun for y'all. I can't wait to participate in the next challenge, Shimobaatar.
The words were:
1: [ˈᶰɢet.tsɪ] 2: [pɔ.ˈtɐ.ⁿdə] 3: [ʔem.ˈmol.lɛ] 4: [ˈqah.han̥]
I'm expecting to be pretty busy these next few days, but hopefully I'll be able to come up with something soon!
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
A quick update: I'm still busier than I'd ideally like to be, but the next challenge is currently in progress.shimobaatar wrote: ↑01 Oct 2020 20:20 I'm expecting to be pretty busy these next few days, but hopefully I'll be able to come up with something soon!
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
The languages involved in this round's challenge have been listed from west to east below. Otherwise, however, I've decided to deviate from my usual format. For this round, here are 5 words/sets of cognates in 18 related languages.
Now that I've finished preparing everything, I'm starting to worry that I may have made things too difficult/complicated. I don't want to delay the game any longer by starting over, though, and it's honestly hard to predict how easy or hard others will find something I made. I'm ready and willing to give hints if needed, however, and to be a forgiving judge, so to speak.
With all that said:
A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]
B [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff] - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ] - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav] - [ˈzeɣəm]
C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]
D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]
E [ˈʔun] - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs] - [tʊˈɫað] - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa] - [ˈzɛɫ]
F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]
G [ˈhuːŋ] - [retˈt͡sisse] - [sexˈxɔːreŋ] - [jekˈkyːtɔ] - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]
I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]
J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]
K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]
L [ˈsoʊ̯n] - [r̩ˈɲinz] - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin] - [ʒeŋˈgiːto] - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]
M [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo] - [twiˈɲɛɻu] - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯] - [jiˈwemʲu]
N [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo] - [ˈtyːnaːʒo] - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː] - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]
O [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo] - [ˈtubbʌːje] - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf] - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]
P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]
Q [ˈrɔɪ̯z] - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra] - [taxˈxɔɐ̯] - [zɛˈgʏtta] - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]
R [ˈzwɛʃ] - [ɣəjˈjez] - [ˈtxwɛx] - [ʒəˈguddə] - [ˈɣɣem̥x]
Now that I've finished preparing everything, I'm starting to worry that I may have made things too difficult/complicated. I don't want to delay the game any longer by starting over, though, and it's honestly hard to predict how easy or hard others will find something I made. I'm ready and willing to give hints if needed, however, and to be a forgiving judge, so to speak.
With all that said:
A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]
B [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff] - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ] - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav] - [ˈzeɣəm]
C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]
D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]
E [ˈʔun] - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs] - [tʊˈɫað] - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa] - [ˈzɛɫ]
F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]
G [ˈhuːŋ] - [retˈt͡sisse] - [sexˈxɔːreŋ] - [jekˈkyːtɔ] - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]
I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]
J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]
K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]
L [ˈsoʊ̯n] - [r̩ˈɲinz] - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin] - [ʒeŋˈgiːto] - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]
M [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo] - [twiˈɲɛɻu] - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯] - [jiˈwemʲu]
N [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo] - [ˈtyːnaːʒo] - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː] - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]
O [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo] - [ˈtubbʌːje] - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf] - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]
P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]
Q [ˈrɔɪ̯z] - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra] - [taxˈxɔɐ̯] - [zɛˈgʏtta] - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]
R [ˈzwɛʃ] - [ɣəjˈjez] - [ˈtxwɛx] - [ʒəˈguddə] - [ˈɣɣem̥x]
Edit: Minor corrections made to 8 of the words.
Edit: A minor correction made to a 9th word.
Last edited by zyma on 15 Oct 2020 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'll put in my guesses for the forms in a couple days, likely. I just wanted to put forth my proposed groupings first.
Comments on these would be appreciated, but if necessary, I'd be happy to take them along with the comments on my reconstructed forms.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
In response to Ratsawn:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
I'm working on a response, but some of the words are tripping me up, lol, and need to work around a few evening shifts.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]
B [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff] - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ] - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav] - [ˈzeɣəm]
AB [goDin] – [əɖnanDiməspo] – [twaxaɖnəR] – [mek:uDiTagu] – [iDexəm]
C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]
D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]
CD [ħuem] – [rnd͡zimpʰɒ] – [tɒħlænd͡zi] – [empeut͡sɒu] – [id͡zelemi]
*CD /l/ seems to correspond to AB /x/, suggesting a shift of l > ʟ > x, c.f. Fáralo to Namɨdu
*Similarly, AB /g/ and CD /ħ/
Proto-ABCD: [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]
E [ˈʔun] - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs] - [tʊˈɫað] - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa] - [ˈzɛɫ]
F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]
EF [ho:n] – [erad͡zi:fs] – [tulaude] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [ed͡zaile]
G [ˈhuːŋ] - [retˈt͡sisse] - [sexˈxɔːreŋ] - [jekˈkyːtɔ] - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]
GH [ho:n] – [ret͡sisse] – [sexa:ren] – [heku:ta] – [jegi:len]
Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]
I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]
J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]
IJ [sun] – [rendes] – [toljon] – [hoŋketa] – [hiljam]
K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]
L [ˈsoʊ̯n] - [r̩ˈɲinz] - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin] - [ʒeŋˈgiːto] - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]
KL [sune] – [raninda] – [tuʃarin] – [deŋgoito] – [keilin]
Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]
* stops /t d k g/ > /θ ð x ɣ/ > /θ θ x x/ > /h/ word initially to IJ
*kʰ > q > ħ in K
M [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo] - [twiˈɲɛɻu] - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯] - [jiˈwemʲu]
N [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo] - [ˈtyːnaːʒo] - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː] - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]
MN [zu:ʃo] – [rnenaiza] – [ty:naʒo] – [ʒiguʃʃau] – [ejwe:mo]
O [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo] - [ˈtubbʌːje] - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf] - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]
P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]
OP [za:ʒa] – [jailɯzo] – [tuboje] – [ʒa:gutt͡ʃaf] – [jeuma]
*a: ai au oi merge into /ʌ:/ in O
Q [ˈrɔɪ̯z] - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra] - [taxˈxɔɐ̯] - [zɛˈgʏtta] - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]
R [ˈzwɛʃ] - [ɣəjˈjez] - [ˈtxwɛx] - [ʒəˈguddə] - [ˈɣɣem̥x]
QR – [zɔiz] – [ɣɔjeza] – [taxɔh] – [zegutta] – [gaɣehm]
h > ɐ̯ in Q, > x with voiceless modification in R
Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] – [toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] – [ɣeɣema]
*ŋ is most likely here, as *ŋ > n, ŋ > g (with gʷ from rounded vowels becoming *b in OP, or ɣ > x in QR, while preexisting * ɣ > g beforehand)
Proto-ABCD: [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]
Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]
Proto-AH – [ɣoðim] – [erẽtĩpsa] – [toɣlãdir] – [ẽkeuditau] – [eɟelemi]
Nasal vowels – in ABCD they separate into VN or NV, in EFGH they just denasalize
Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]
Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] –[toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] - [ɣeɣema]
Proto-IR – [soisã] – [rãnidas] – [tõliorun] – [zeŋkeutiau] – [geliama]
Proto-World – [sxosem] – [rantimsas] – [toŋliandur] – [jeŋkeutitau] – [geliame]
B [ˈvoziɲ] - [ɳɳaˈziməff] - [paˈɣaɳɳəɻ] - [mexˈxuzit͡ɕav] - [ˈzeɣəm]
AB [goDin] – [əɖnanDiməspo] – [twaxaɖnəR] – [mek:uDiTagu] – [iDexəm]
C [ˈħem] - [rɨnˈd͡zimpʰo] - [toħˈland͡ʒɨ] - [jemˈpʼiːt͡sɔ] - [ˈd͡ʒlemɨ]
D [ˈħyə̯m] - [ɹn̩ˈd͡zɪɱfa] - [taħˈɫand͡z] - [ʔɛmˈpəʏ̯so] - [ʔɪˈzɛɫm]
CD [ħuem] – [rnd͡zimpʰɒ] – [tɒħlænd͡zi] – [empeut͡sɒu] – [id͡zelemi]
*CD /l/ seems to correspond to AB /x/, suggesting a shift of l > ʟ > x, c.f. Fáralo to Namɨdu
*Similarly, AB /g/ and CD /ħ/
Proto-ABCD: [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]
E [ˈʔun] - [ɹaˈzaɪ̯fs] - [tʊˈɫað] - [ʔɛfˈkaʊ̯sa] - [ˈzɛɫ]
F [ˈwoŋ] - [jerˈd͡ziffe] - [tuˈloːde] - [jeˈk͡puːt͡sa] - [jeˈd͡zeːle]
EF [ho:n] – [erad͡zi:fs] – [tulaude] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [ed͡zaile]
G [ˈhuːŋ] - [retˈt͡sisse] - [sexˈxɔːreŋ] - [jekˈkyːtɔ] - [jeˈgiːleŋ]
H [ˈhom] - [r̩ˈd͡zɪs] - [ˈsxarn] - [ɪˈcuːðɐ] - [ˈʝeʊ̯m]
GH [ho:n] – [ret͡sisse] – [sexa:ren] – [heku:ta] – [jegi:len]
Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]
I [ˈsum] - [ˈrɛnʒes] - [ˈsoʎən] - [ˈwɪŋketæ] - [ˈsiʎəm]
J [ˈsõɪ̯̃] - [ˈrjɛ̃dĩzo] - [ˈtolɔ̃ɐ̯̃] - [ˈŋõʊ̯̃pæda] - [ˈŋiə̯ɮã]
IJ [sun] – [rendes] – [toljon] – [hoŋketa] – [hiljam]
K [ˈsũvɛ] - [rɐ̃ˈnĩdɐ] - [tʊˈʃẽɪ̯̃] - [dɛ̃ˈŋœʏ̯dɐ] - [ħɪˈʕĩː]
L [ˈsoʊ̯n] - [r̩ˈɲinz] - [ˈt͡ʃæːrin] - [ʒeŋˈgiːto] - [ˈkʰeɪ̯lin]
KL [sune] – [raninda] – [tuʃarin] – [deŋgoito] – [keilin]
Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]
* stops /t d k g/ > /θ ð x ɣ/ > /θ θ x x/ > /h/ word initially to IJ
*kʰ > q > ħ in K
M [ˈzwaʒu] - [ɳɛˈnaɪ̯ʒo] - [twiˈɲɛɻu] - [ʒjaˈguʃaʊ̯] - [jiˈwemʲu]
N [ˈzuːʒo] - [ˈnaːneːzo] - [ˈtyːnaːʒo] - [ˈʒiːguʒʒoː] - [ˈjeʒʒeːmo]
MN [zu:ʃo] – [rnenaiza] – [ty:naʒo] – [ʒiguʃʃau] – [ejwe:mo]
O [ˈzʌːʒe] - [ˈd͡ʒʌːlɯːzo] - [ˈtubbʌːje] - [ˈʒʌːgudd͡ʒaf] - [ˈd͡ʒoːme]
P [ˈzaʒa] - [jɛˈlɯzo] - [tuˈwɔje] - [ʒaˈgut͡ʃa] - [ˈjeːma]
OP [za:ʒa] – [jailɯzo] – [tuboje] – [ʒa:gutt͡ʃaf] – [jeuma]
*a: ai au oi merge into /ʌ:/ in O
Q [ˈrɔɪ̯z] - [ɦɔˈjeɪ̯ra] - [taxˈxɔɐ̯] - [zɛˈgʏtta] - [gaˈɣeɐ̯m]
R [ˈzwɛʃ] - [ɣəjˈjez] - [ˈtxwɛx] - [ʒəˈguddə] - [ˈɣɣem̥x]
QR – [zɔiz] – [ɣɔjeza] – [taxɔh] – [zegutta] – [gaɣehm]
h > ɐ̯ in Q, > x with voiceless modification in R
Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] – [toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] – [ɣeɣema]
*ŋ is most likely here, as *ŋ > n, ŋ > g (with gʷ from rounded vowels becoming *b in OP, or ɣ > x in QR, while preexisting * ɣ > g beforehand)
Proto-ABCD: [gudim] – [rnadimspo] – [toglandir] – [mekeuditagu] – [idelemi]
Proto-EFGH – [ho:n] – [eret͡sifse] – [teula:den] – [hepku:t͡sa] – [egi:len]
Proto-AH – [ɣoðim] – [erẽtĩpsa] – [toɣlãdir] – [ẽkeuditau] – [eɟelemi]
Nasal vowels – in ABCD they separate into VN or NV, in EFGH they just denasalize
Proto-IJKL [sune] – [ranides] – [doljorin] – [deŋkoita] - [keiljam]
Proto-MNQR – [zoisa] – [rnenaiza] –[toŋajo] - [zeɣutiau] - [ɣeɣema]
Proto-IR – [soisã] – [rãnidas] – [tõliorun] – [zeŋkeutiau] – [geliama]
Proto-World – [sxosem] – [rantimsas] – [toŋliandur] – [jeŋkeutitau] – [geliame]
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
There are a few things that I'd like to clarify for everyone's sake:
First, I count long vowels as single segments. I typically transcribe geminates as [CC], but for the purposes of this game I'll try to count them as single segments. For example, if someone reconstructs [r] where I have [rr], I'll consider that one partially correct segment, not one fully correct segment and one missing segment.
However, I'm going to be counting diphthongs as two segments. For the purposes of this game, if I see just [au], for instance, I'm going to assume it's intended to be a diphthong unless I'm told otherwise. Similarly, if I see a non-high vowel immediately preceded and followed by two high vowels, I'm going to assume the two high vowels are intended to be non-syllabic.
Finally, I would advise against ignoring stress placement. It won't factor into counting segments, of course, but I won't consider a word correct if the placement of stress is either reconstructed incorrectly or not indicated at all.
However, in the mean time, I have a few basic comments/questions:
First, I count long vowels as single segments. I typically transcribe geminates as [CC], but for the purposes of this game I'll try to count them as single segments. For example, if someone reconstructs [r] where I have [rr], I'll consider that one partially correct segment, not one fully correct segment and one missing segment.
However, I'm going to be counting diphthongs as two segments. For the purposes of this game, if I see just [au], for instance, I'm going to assume it's intended to be a diphthong unless I'm told otherwise. Similarly, if I see a non-high vowel immediately preceded and followed by two high vowels, I'm going to assume the two high vowels are intended to be non-syllabic.
Finally, I would advise against ignoring stress placement. It won't factor into counting segments, of course, but I won't consider a word correct if the placement of stress is either reconstructed incorrectly or not indicated at all.
No worries, take your time! I'm planning to wait until several people have made reconstruction attempts before giving anyone in-depth feedback.
I've looked over your post and fully responded to it, but as I mentioned above, I'm going to wait until a few people have submitted their guesses before posting in-depth feedback for anyone.
However, in the mean time, I have a few basic comments/questions:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
1. Capital letters: T is *t or *ts, D is *d or *dz, and R was originally *r, perhaps shifting to retroflex *ɽ in Proto-AB.shimobaatar wrote: ↑13 Oct 2020 03:19 There are a few things that I'd like to clarify for everyone's sake:
First, I count long vowels as single segments. I typically transcribe geminates as [CC], but for the purposes of this game I'll try to count them as single segments. For example, if someone reconstructs [r] where I have [rr], I'll consider that one partially correct segment, not one fully correct segment and one missing segment.
However, I'm going to be counting diphthongs as two segments. For the purposes of this game, if I see just [au], for instance, I'm going to assume it's intended to be a diphthong unless I'm told otherwise. Similarly, if I see a non-high vowel immediately preceded and followed by two high vowels, I'm going to assume the two high vowels are intended to be non-syllabic.
Finally, I would advise against ignoring stress placement. It won't factor into counting segments, of course, but I won't consider a word correct if the placement of stress is either reconstructed incorrectly or not indicated at all.
No worries, take your time! I'm planning to wait until several people have made reconstruction attempts before giving anyone in-depth feedback.
I've looked over your post and fully responded to it, but as I mentioned above, I'm going to wait until a few people have submitted their guesses before posting in-depth feedback for anyone.
However, in the mean time, I have a few basic comments/questions:
Spoiler:
2. Devoicing of adjacent consonants.
3. Yes, OP is included.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
So, preliminary guess, the vast majority of it was thrown together while half asleep, lol, but I'll try to explain what I've done as I read back through it, just to add some clarity:
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Thanks for the clarifications! I'll update my feedback to reflect this.
I'm going to wait for Ratsawn's attempt before responding in detail to anyone. In the mean time, feel free to make any changes you'd like, but if you do, let me know so that I can update my response to you.
I've started going over your work here already, sangi39, and there's something I want to point out right away. A few days after I first posted the challenge for this round, but before anyone had responded, I edited my original post to make corrections to 8 of the words. I guess you must have gotten an early start on this, though, because it looks like you've been working off of the pre-correction "data". For your reference, here are the words I changed, in bold:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Man, this challenge makes reconstructing PIE laryngeals look like a walk in the park.
First off, I'd like to apologize for the delay. My process is slow and my schoolwork has picked up considerably this week. To accelerate the gameplay, I've done a lot of guesswork and forsook my standard system, so I have minimal comments and questions this round.
First off, I'd like to apologize for the delay. My process is slow and my schoolwork has picked up considerably this week. To accelerate the gameplay, I've done a lot of guesswork and forsook my standard system, so I have minimal comments and questions this round.
Spoiler:
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
Oookay, so I took the more recent word list (I didn't have much time between work and falling asleep, lol, to notice there had been an update), but I've got a sort of "second preliminary guess" which I feel is a bit more "sound" than the last one:
There are still bits I'm very unsure of, and I haven't gone into much detail about what patterns I think I'm seeing, but we'll see how it goes (sorry if this ruins your attempts at feedback on my first guess)
Spoiler:
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
A couple of announcements:
First, after noticing multiple people's reconstructions deviating from the forms I had in mind in similar ways, I decided to try to work backwards myself. I found a few instances where I had, more or less, the same sound change taking place in two closely related languages, or where the ancestral form I originally had in mind wasn't the most intuitive way to reconstruct something. In these cases, I will be accepting a number of variations as "essentially correct".
Second, I apologize, but while doing what I described above, I believe I found another error. I'll be updating the original post momentarily to reflect this, but this is what's being changed (the length of the pretonic vowel of Word 2 in A, *[əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩə̯̃spo] > [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo]):
A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]
This is a minor change, so it may not have a huge effect on your reconstructions, but I'll be taking the fact that I posted the incorrect form of the word into account before posting my feedback on your first round of guesses. If you do want to adjust something in light of this before I post my feedback, however, please let me know.
Finally, I expect to be able to post my responses to the three of you before this weekend.
Everyone: please feel free to take as much time as you need to be able to submit something you're reasonably satisfied with. Also, I don't mind being given a lot of "material", so to speak, to look over. The more you give me, the more I have to respond to.
First, after noticing multiple people's reconstructions deviating from the forms I had in mind in similar ways, I decided to try to work backwards myself. I found a few instances where I had, more or less, the same sound change taking place in two closely related languages, or where the ancestral form I originally had in mind wasn't the most intuitive way to reconstruct something. In these cases, I will be accepting a number of variations as "essentially correct".
Second, I apologize, but while doing what I described above, I believe I found another error. I'll be updating the original post momentarily to reflect this, but this is what's being changed (the length of the pretonic vowel of Word 2 in A, *[əːɖɔ̃ːˈðĩə̯̃spo] > [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo]):
A [ˈgoðɛ̃ː] - [əːɖɔ̃ˈðĩə̯̃spo] - [tʼaˈk͡xɔ̃ːɖəː] - [bɛ̃ˈkʼuðiθagu] - [iˈðek͡xə̃ː]
This is a minor change, so it may not have a huge effect on your reconstructions, but I'll be taking the fact that I posted the incorrect form of the word into account before posting my feedback on your first round of guesses. If you do want to adjust something in light of this before I post my feedback, however, please let me know.
Finally, I expect to be able to post my responses to the three of you before this weekend.
Oh, no worries at all!
Everyone: please feel free to take as much time as you need to be able to submit something you're reasonably satisfied with. Also, I don't mind being given a lot of "material", so to speak, to look over. The more you give me, the more I have to respond to.
It's no problem! I'll go over what you have here as soon as I can.sangi39 wrote: ↑15 Oct 2020 22:26 Oookay, so I took the more recent word list (I didn't have much time between work and falling asleep, lol, to notice there had been an update), but I've got a sort of "second preliminary guess" which I feel is a bit more "sound" than the last one:
[…]
There are still bits I'm very unsure of, and I haven't gone into much detail about what patterns I think I'm seeing, but we'll see how it goes (sorry if this ruins your attempts at feedback on my first guess)
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge
In response to ɶʙ ɞʛ:
Spoiler:
The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)