What did you accomplish today? [2011–2019]

[felipesnark]

I added some detail to Shonkasika's intonation and phonology. Two identical vowels in sequence are not coalesced into a long vowel, but are pronounced with contrasting pitch; if one of the vowels is stressed, it is pronounced with a higher pitch. Otherwise, the second vowel is pronounced with a lower pitch.

I'm using an acute accent for higher pitch and and a grave accent for lower pitch. Let me know if I should represent it a different way!

saamo /sa'.á.mo/ noodle (nom. indef. sg.)
saamomo /sa.à'.mo.mo/ of (a) noodle (gen. indef. sg.)

I also introduced a passive verb with no active form:

goteli to be born

[alynnidalar]

I set-up (past tense) the zompist word generator to form syllables with the consonant in order of the current distribution of my conlang's phonemes.

It's not working out very well...

What problem are you having?

It always takes me some time to find things I like from Gen (or any word generator, it's not a Gen-exclusive problem)... I'm simply not the sort of person who can just take the first randomly-generated word that comes up and plug it into my Old Tirina lexicon. (and I never put randomly-generated words directly into the Modern Tirina lexicon, at least not without a lot of massaging, I just can't do it)

[Ahzoh]

I set-up (past tense) the zompist word generator to form syllables with the consonant in order of the current distribution of my conlang's phonemes.

It's not working out very well...

What problem are you having?

It always takes me some time to find things I like from Gen (or any word generator, it's not a Gen-exclusive problem)... I'm simply not the sort of person who can just take the first randomly-generated word that comes up and plug it into my Old Tirina lexicon. (and I never put randomly-generated words directly into the Modern Tirina lexicon, at least not without a lot of massaging, I just can't do it)

It doesn't matter because my computer decided to crash thereby losing all the thing I had set up.

The problems are 1)what kind of categories I should make because my phonotactics are irregular and not entirely flexible 2) how to make it not generate CCC clusters, because those are not allowed in any position of the word 3) arrange the order of syllable type to match the most common ones in my current lexicon and 4) reduce the number of words with more than three syllables.

[Sḿtuval]

I also introduced a passive verb with no active form:

goteli to be born

Ythnandosian's word for be born is goɣar. It can be used as a transitive verb, though, meaning be born by/out of.

[loglorn]

I found out Chífjaeśi makes a bunch of painfully subtle contrasts, and that they can be morphologically significant:

t͡ɕ (affricate) vs. tɕ (plosive + fricative)

céciw /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕiw/ hug-FUT vs. tśéciw /tɕeːt͡ɕiw/ COND-hug-CIRC

iː (long vowel) vs. ij (vowel + approximant)

cécí /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕiː/ hug-INF vs. cécij /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕij/ hug-GNO

[felipesnark]

I also introduced a passive verb with no active form:

goteli to be born

Ythnandosian's word for be born is goɣar. It can be used as a transitive verb, though, meaning be born by/out of.

What a happy coincidence! Could you give a glossed example of its transitive use? I'm curious.

[elemtilas]

There is a formless wasteland of nonexistence...

I like this so far. Dichotomies are always fun!

To name one thing that has changed: Hell is no longer Heaven corrupted. It is now the Universe-Corpses of Aspects which die--their transcendence is so great that they don't really "die", their death throes basically tear reality apart and they become utterly twisted and warped into the simultaneously-dead-and-alive nightmare world that is Hell.

Oo... This is nice! Will have to steal that idea for sure! Not that "heaven corrupted" isn't similarly intriguing an idea...

Either that, or I will have them form their Wicked Domains through dying--basically instead of dying, they rip open at the seams to form two distinct wholes which paradoxically are the same size as their original whole self. However the original idea for this new cosmology is that the Virtuous Domains and Wicked Domains have always been there in this paradoxical yin-yang situation, and I'll probably keep that.

Hmm. Creation of hells by binary fission... Interesting indeed...

[Sḿtuval]

For some reason this verb is never used in the past, always the remote past (which is take + infinitive).

Nivo goɣarẓem so efuy sa.
take-IND.CESS.PST be_born-INF 1SG.GEN parent-ABS.SG 1SG.ERG
My mother gave birth to me.

The language tends to avoid postpositions as much as possible, which is why I don't use a word meaning something like by or out of.

[HoskhMatriarch]

I figured out that there are phonetic pharyngealized triple-long vowels based on my sound changes and pronunciations (/eːʀ/ is [eːːˤ]). That'll probably get cut down to only normal long in speech though, since it doesn't contrast with anything.

I also started to work on nouns and nominal things more. Of course, the same sound changes that lead to weirdness on the verbs are going to lead to weird stem changes and polyexponence on nouns, but I really need to figure out where endings on adjectives come from.

[zyma]

Well, by "real" writing, I mean stuff I'm actually putting effort into to try to make it something worth reading. City of Storms is more of a, "Vomit the first words that come to mind onto the page without any planning, worldbuiding, or effort whatsoever" kinda deal, so I don't lose myself to going a month without doing any writing (I've noticed my slumps are self-perpetuating, the longer they last, the harder it is to pull myself out of them, which makes them last even longer, etc.).

It seems though, that work I produce when I actually try (Everwhite/Tazar) and the work I produce when I don't really give a shit, are pretty much indistinguishable. I'm not sure if this should make me happy, or if this should make me very, very, very depressed.

Ahh, understood. And I agree with elemtilas in that I would personally interpret it as a very good thing if the writing I didn't try too hard on came out just as good as the writing I did try on. You are indeed a very good writer, and you consistently produce high-quality pieces. Although, for whatever it's worth, I personally can feel a definite difference between the stories you put effort into and those you don't. They're both enjoyable, intriguing, and very well-written, as I've said, but pieces of writing set in the Everwhite or Tazar give off an obvious feeling to me of having deep, sturdy backgrounds mostly hidden from the reader's view supporting them, if that makes sense.

I am now completely rebooting the Divine Plane. Again. The metaphysics are going through a major change and the backstory to the whole universe is also changing. There's going to be more Aspects as well...though not all will be alive by the contemporary time. I think the new backstory is cooler and the new metaphysics add a bunch of cool stuff too. To sort everything I'm writing up a post on the new metaphysics; if you want a sneak peek of that, here's the intro:

Spoiler:

There is a formless wasteland of nonexistence.

To even put it in words distorts its true nature. There is no time, so it cannot be said to have begun or will ever end. There is nothing. It is not "empty"--that implies that something could fill it. It has no dimensions, no size, no anything. It is devoid of anything. Christening it is enough to truly distort its nature, but to scholars it is known as That Which Is Not.

Then there are Aspects: utterly transcendent beings that exist opposite of this Nothing (they do not "co"-exist; That Which Is Not does not exist in the first place). They do not exist in reality: they are reality. Their bodies are the cosmos itself, rebuking That Which Is Not through being That Which Is. The only Exception is Chronos, Aspect of Time, who flows through his siblings like blood. In giving them a Present, they define a That Which Was and a That Which Will Be: the past and future, and thus they live...

To name one thing that has changed: Hell is no longer Heaven corrupted. It is now the Universe-Corpses of Aspects which die--their transcendence is so great that they don't really "die", their death throes basically tear reality apart and they become utterly twisted and warped into the simultaneously-dead-and-alive nightmare world that is Hell.

Either that, or I will have them form their Wicked Domains through dying--basically instead of dying, they rip open at the seams to form two distinct wholes which paradoxically are the same size as their original whole self. However the original idea for this new cosmology is that the Virtuous Domains and Wicked Domains have always been there in this paradoxical yin-yang situation, and I'll probably keep that.

Interesting! It's hard to put this in to words, but I feel you're very good at indirectly describing indescribability. I also particularly like the new conceptualization of Hell.

I have decided that Vrkhazhian will have a secundative alignment. So now all will know that I said them things.

Cool!

Finally, the letter <h> is now back in use. Before, it wasn't used in the alphabet at all due to all instances of /h/ becoming /g/. Now, it's used to represent /g/ in words which used to have /h/. For example, the word hund hunt (which came from haond) is pronounced /gund/.

I've gone back on this change because some words now look ugly IMO.

EDIT: I've gone back on the whole reform. Instead what I'll do is have these etymological spellings be old and archaic, and make it so the original regular orthography is the product of a spelling reform that happened a century or two ago.

It's great that you've found a way to keep the language aesthetically pleasing in its modern form while still adding another level of depth to its history.

I added some detail to Shonkasika's intonation and phonology. Two identical vowels in sequence are not coalesced into a long vowel, but are pronounced with contrasting pitch; if one of the vowels is stressed, it is pronounced with a higher pitch. Otherwise, the second vowel is pronounced with a lower pitch.

I'm using an acute accent for higher pitch and and a grave accent for lower pitch. Let me know if I should represent it a different way!

saamo /sa'.á.mo/ noodle (nom. indef. sg.)
saamomo /sa.à'.mo.mo/ of (a) noodle (gen. indef. sg.)

I also introduced a passive verb with no active form:

goteli to be born

Lovely, to both the use of pitch distinctions to keep two identical vowels in a row distinct and the introduction of an exclusively passive verb! Also, I think the way you're representing pitch should be fine; I'm not entirely sure, but I think that might be one of the ways to indicate the tones in question in the IPA.

I found out Chífjaeśi makes a bunch of painfully subtle contrasts, and that they can be morphologically significant:

t͡ɕ (affricate) vs. tɕ (plosive + fricative)

céciw /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕiw/ hug-FUT vs. tśéciw /tɕeːt͡ɕiw/ COND-hug-CIRC

iː (long vowel) vs. ij (vowel + approximant)

cécí /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕiː/ hug-INF vs. cécij /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕij/ hug-GNO

Wow! If you don't mind my asking, how did contrasts like these come about?

For some reason this verb is never used in the past, always the remote past (which is take + infinitive).

Nivo goɣarẓem so efuy sa.
take-IND.CESS.PST be_born-INF 1SG.GEN parent-ABS.SG 1SG.ERG
My mother gave birth to me.

The language tends to avoid postpositions as much as possible, which is why I don't use a word meaning something like by or out of.

Nice! So the verb in question is only used in the remote past, not the "regular" past, even when talking about someone else's birth?

[loglorn]

Cool stuff

Interesting! It's hard to put this in to words, but I feel you're very good at indirectly describing indescribability. I also particularly like the new conceptualization of Hell.

I felt that too, and i quite liked the tone of the descriptions. Actually, i like all incarnations of the Divine Plane up to date, i've read your stories and liked them quite much. I like their tone, the whole things runs like an anime in my head.

---

I found out Chífjaeśi makes a bunch of painfully subtle contrasts, and that they can be morphologically significant:

t͡ɕ (affricate) vs. tɕ (plosive + fricative)

céciw /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕiw/ hug-FUT vs. tśéciw /tɕeːt͡ɕiw/ COND-hug-CIRC

iː (long vowel) vs. ij (vowel + approximant)

cécí /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕiː/ hug-INF vs. cécij /t͡ɕeːt͡ɕij/ hug-GNO

Wow! If you don't mind my asking, how did contrasts like these come about?

I think both are cases of sound changes bleeding each other.

The first comes about because fricatives were fortited word initially, in this particular example, we have *fɛtypq -> pɛtypq

We later have a pʲ -> pt͡ɕ -> t͡ɕ change, which generates the initial affricate in céciw

In tśéciw though, the existence of a prefix t-, has prevented the fortition from happening, but there is an analogous fʲ -> fɕ -> ɕ change anyway, which ultimately makes *tf -> tɕ.


The proto forms of cécí and cécij were *fétyj /fɛtyj/ and *fétyẕ /fɛtyʐ/. /yj/ assimilated into /yː/, but /yɻ/ (after ʐ/ɻ/_[C#]) did not. That /ɻ/ became /j/ centuries later when the 5 approximants /j w ɰ ɹ ɻ/ merged into /j w/.

[zyma]

I think both are cases of sound changes bleeding each other.

The first comes about because fricatives were fortited word initially, in this particular example, we have *fɛtypq -> pɛtypq

We later have a pʲ -> pt͡ɕ -> t͡ɕ change, which generates the initial affricate in céciw

In tśéciw though, the existence of a prefix t-, has prevented the fortition from happening, but there is an analogous fʲ -> fɕ -> ɕ change anyway, which ultimately makes *tf -> tɕ.


The proto forms of cécí and cécij were *fétyj /fɛtyj/ and *fétyẕ /fɛtyʐ/. /yj/ assimilated into /yː/, but /yɻ/ (after ʐ/ɻ/_[C#]) did not. That /ɻ/ became /j/ centuries later when the 5 approximants /j w ɰ ɹ ɻ/ merged into /j w/.

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

[Man in Space]

I made a word in Kgáweq’ that means "button". I'm pretty happy with it.

saeərąłnáqęq
sa-eər-ął-náq-ęq
down-REL-INV-press-DIM.S
"small thing that is pressed down"
(REL = relative, INV = inversion similar to how I understand it works in Georgian, DIM = diminutive, S = subject)

[DesEsseintes]

...for whatever it's worth, I personally can feel a definite difference between the stories you put effort into and those you don't [...] pieces of writing set in the Everwhite or Tazar give off an obvious feeling to me of having deep, sturdy backgrounds mostly hidden from the reader's view supporting them, if that makes sense.

I have to agree with shimobaatar here. The stormsinger episodes feel like stylistic experiments rather than carefully crafted stories.

[Micamo]

Ahh, understood. And I agree with elemtilas in that I would personally interpret it as a very good thing if the writing I didn't try too hard on came out just as good as the writing I did try on. You are indeed a very good writer, and you consistently produce high-quality pieces. Although, for whatever it's worth, I personally can feel a definite difference between the stories you put effort into and those you don't. They're both enjoyable, intriguing, and very well-written, as I've said, but pieces of writing set in the Everwhite or Tazar give off an obvious feeling to me of having deep, sturdy backgrounds mostly hidden from the reader's view supporting them, if that makes sense.

That's comforting I suppose: Still, I can't help but notice the tricks I use to create mystery and suggest the world is more fleshed out than I'm showing off, work just as well when there *is* substance behind the suggestion, as when there *isn't*. Looking at it this way, it makes *all* my writing seem amateurish and hackish. Like the trick is what makes the pieces work, not the substance.

[DesEsseintes]

Ahh, understood. And I agree with elemtilas in that I would personally interpret it as a very good thing if the writing I didn't try too hard on came out just as good as the writing I did try on. You are indeed a very good writer, and you consistently produce high-quality pieces. Although, for whatever it's worth, I personally can feel a definite difference between the stories you put effort into and those you don't. They're both enjoyable, intriguing, and very well-written, as I've said, but pieces of writing set in the Everwhite or Tazar give off an obvious feeling to me of having deep, sturdy backgrounds mostly hidden from the reader's view supporting them, if that makes sense.

That's comforting I suppose: Still, I can't help but notice the tricks I use to create mystery and suggest the world is more fleshed out than I'm showing off, work just as well when there *is* substance behind the suggestion, as when there *isn't*. Looking at it this way, it makes *all* my writing seem amateurish and hackish. Like the trick is what makes the pieces work, not the substance.

I disagree. The "tricks" you used to create suspense in the Everwhite story never struck me as such. I could feel that there was going to be more interesting stuff to read about, hence the suspense (← yay rhyme) was real.

I don't have time to look it up now but in one of the Stormsinger episodes there was a line along the lines of "that is what doomed us all", and it just rang hollow. At least for me.

My point is, the work you put into the Everwhite story comes through. Clearly.

[elemtilas]

That's comforting I suppose: Still, I can't help but notice the tricks I use to create mystery and suggest the world is more fleshed out than I'm showing off, work just as well when there *is* substance behind the suggestion, as when there *isn't*. Looking at it this way, it makes *all* my writing seem amateurish and hackish. Like the trick is what makes the pieces work, not the substance.

I disagree. The "tricks" you used to create suspense in the Everwhite story never struck me as such. I could feel that there was going to be more interesting stuff to read about, hence the suspense (← yay rhyme) was real.

I don't have time to look it up now but in one of the Stormsinger episodes there was a line along the lines of "that is what doomed us all", and it just rang hollow. At least for me.

My point is, the work you put into the Everwhite story comes through. Clearly.

No doubt. Must be in the nature of the "tricks" then. If the trick works when there isn't a lot of background, making it seem like there is actually more, there's really no reason why it oughtn't work when there is actually background! Here, the tricks are simply reinforced by a more solid background; whereas in the other instance, she's just writing a good line and hoping all the patches will stick together! Thus far, and as far as I've read what she's written here, the patchwork is pretty sturdy. I generally tend to give the benefit of the doubt anyway, presuming that the author probably has some kind of background worked out. If she's able to make it look like it's well thought out, when it really ain't, well, kudos!

Don't be so discouraged though, M. All this means is that these are areas you have yet to properly fill in and explore. Let's face it: an author writing 18th century historical romance *here* doesn't really have to do a whole lot of work -- just research into the history that already happened, how characters would have behaved and what they would have worn, how they would have gotten around and how the toilets worked. All these are things that are trivially easy to discover. You, however, (and me and Chagen and Egerius and everyone else hereabouts) are writing about *there* -- there are no reference sources that we can look into that will tell us the history the culture the mores and the ten thousand six hundred forty one little things you need to know about an otherworld in order to tell a proper story about the place. Leastways, no reference work that we haven't already written ourselves! Not only do we have to develop characters and plot, but we also have to discover the history and culture those people and plots fit into! We have to find out what kind of clothing they wear, and when, and why and where to sit and how to sit and who can sit where and why it's seen as such a faux pas to eat fresh galing worms with that fiddly little two pronged fork they use for skewering the rabbit eyes out of the crater.

Spoiler:

The answer, of course!, is that proper etiquette enjoins one to use the little narrow oblong spoon for the worms. After all, according to all the etiquette handbooks, no one wants to find encrusted galing worm entrails sticking to their poached rabbit eyes! Ew!

And for Pete sake, stop munching the worms! Just enjoy the tickle and let em wriggle! (Yay! More rhyme!) They'll find their way on down! Less bitter that way, anyway.

Hence the tricks. Think of all these tricks as temporary crowns that allow you to eat properly until your permanent crown is made and installed.

[HoskhMatriarch]

OK, I have a list of everything I need to do to get a language:

1. Sound change stuff:
- Figure out how the few languages that have voiced sibilants but not voiced stops get them (working on this)
- Figure out how plausible w > v / _V is (working on this)
- Make sure you know how to syllabic consonants (working on this)
2. Morphology stuff
- Make up a bunch of agglutinating morphemes for the proto-language
- Run them through all the sound changes I have come up with once I finish 1. and see the glorious irregularity and fusion that will arise
- Manage to keep a verb template with about 10 slots after a lot of things have fused and become irregular (and probably read a lot about Mohawk and Navajo during this to see how this is managed in natlangs)
- Develop lots of suppletion
- Look up the history of double-marking languages to make sure you don't lose your super redundant let's-mark-everything-on-the-verb-and-still-have-cases morphology
3. Syntax stuff
- End up with no dominant word order due to the fact that so many things are handled through morphology that there is no such thing as a neutral sentence with S, O, and V
4. Lexicon stuff
- Make up words
5. Other
- Make a conscript that looks original if that's possible and try to make as many ligatures as possible
- Run around speaking the language to random people

[gestaltist]

Skipped City of Storms these past two nights because I've been inspired to do some "real" writing instead. A preview, I guess:

Yes, though every land is cursed in its own way, just as every person is broken in their own way. You might say that ours is the worst sort, but I never saw it as a competition.

This sentence is a gem.

[Larryrl]

Worled on some phrases to get the learning time for Yerk down to a minimum.

Spoiler:

GENERAL EXPRESSIONS AVANDU FRAZUZ
yes ja
no neesh
perhaps poee
please kuk
excuse me sabej ot
thanks (very much) dunk ta
you are welcome (with pleasure) saf zatatu
it is alright ketes geelau
it is not alright ketes neesh geelau
it doesn't matter fares neesh ratolu
that is all deeu kedes leeu
wait a minute zudes hato
come in ejes oga
come here ejes te deeo
what do you wish kveeu ta safes
what kveeu
who kveelai
when kveean
where kveeo
why kveeat
how long kveeun luha
how far kveeun kars
listen aufeze
look out tadeze
look here favateze

YOURSELF OT DAJE
I am an American citizen Ot kedes ameleee kit
My name is John Smith Otee noku kedes John Smith
I spell my name Ot udaies Otee noku
I am a student Ot kedes fesu
I am a teacher Ot kedes vizerku
I am a business man Ot kedes lukterku
I am here on a business trip Ot kedes ta deeo obo luktee deagu
I am here on vacation Ot kedes ta deeo obo
I am a friend of Ot kedes onti fee natu
My mailing address is Otee nelgelu kedes
I am hungary Ot kedes petee
I am thirsty Ot kedes kvalee
I am warm Ot kedes glontee
I am cold Ot kedes glontdaiee
I am busy Ot kedes beezhee
I am tired Ot kedes blegee
I am ready Ot kedes keee
I must hurry Ot shteles petaleva
I am glad Ot kedes hupee
I am sorry Ot kedes rejee

GREETINGS AND SOCIAL CONVERSATION haiuz bel gvebee afadu
Good morning Beef beta
Good afternoon Beef aja
Good evening beeg evu
Good Night Beef luza
Hello Tebi
how are you dago kedes ta
how do you fare dago fasees ta
I'll be seeing you untai zuskesau
until the next time untai eg zuskesau
fine thanks and you Beefai dunk bel ta
how is your family kveeon kedes taee krunku
very well pluai beefai
not very well neesh pluai beefai
all right beefai
so so sufai beefai
may I introduce mr Ladeze ot peneva fet
may I introduce mrs Ladeze ot peneva fetefu
may I introduce miss Ladeze ot peneva bunefu
this is my wife te deai ketes otee agoefu
this is my husband te deai ketes otee agou
this is my daughter te deai ketes otee ketefu
this is my son te deai ketes otee ketu
this is my father te deai ketes otee froshtu
this is my mother te deai ketes otee frostefu
this is my sister te deai ketes otee detefu
this is my brother te deai ketes otee detu
this is my child te deai ketes otee keeu
this is my friend te deai ketes otee ontu
I am glad to know you Ot ketes felee fungeva ta
Please join us kukai hureva ar
Please sit down kukai tuleva
who is that man kveeai ketes deeai natalu
who is that boy kveeai ketes deeai zaidu
who is that woman kveeai ketes deeai natalefu
May I have your address and telephone number da ta laduf ot jeekseva taee gelu bel nabuee nubu
May I call on you again da ta laduf ot sa vaizeva ta
come and see us ejes vaizeva ar
I have enjoyed myself very much ot anjor daje beefageai
Regards to your aunt and uncle opuz nu taee unkfeu bel unku
I like you very much ot rodes ta beefageai
I love you ot sajes ta