Search found 882 matches

by Xonen
29 Nov 2021 16:42
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]

Can we really speak about "Standard Finnish" before 19th century? There were some religious texts, but was there really any standard way of reading them. I would guess everybody read them aloud according their own dialect. Of course, they were mostly read by priests whose L1 was usually S...
by Xonen
24 Nov 2021 00:13
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography

However, if the sound change site Xonen linked is correct and the /t͡s/ -> /θ/ shift already happened between Proto-Finnic and Proto-Finnish, then the shift /*t͡s/ -> /*θ/ -> /*t͡s/ had to have happened at some point in those dialects... or alternatively the dialects where it remained /t͡s/ split o...
by Xonen
23 Nov 2021 23:51
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography

Spanish had /t͡s̪/ > /s̪/ > /θ̟/ That was the one I could think of too, but didn't think it counts since it had an intermediate stage. Why would that matter? Just like speakers are unlikely to reject a sound change because their ancestors already had it, they're unlikely to reject a natural sequenc...
by Xonen
22 Nov 2021 23:28
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography

The modern standard pronunciations were established in the 19th century, so the relevant Swedish influence is 19th century Swedish-speaking intelligentsia getting caught up in Finnish nationalism and starting to learn Finnish. It has absolutely nothing to do with Old Swedish or Vikings or even Agri...
by Xonen
22 Nov 2021 21:26
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Replies: 833
Views: 215243

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Gutnish päiku "girl" v.s. Swedish pojke "boy" Not sure if they are cognates though Seems like päiku would more likely be a cognate of Swedish piga 'maid', from Old Norse píka (but I don't know for sure). It's apparently possible both of these are originally loans from Finnish (o...
by Xonen
21 Nov 2021 22:38
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography

*/ʃt/ > /ht/ has happened in Finnic, along with general /ʃ/ > /h/: lehti 'leaf' < * lešte , heinä 'hay' < * šaina etc. But this happened at some stage in Proto-Finnic Somehow I managed to completely forget about that. [:$] Maybe subconsciously I was partially thinking of that, though... it having h...
by Xonen
19 Nov 2021 21:03
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography

On the other hand, it may be the case that <z> is normally pronounced /ts/ (as in German) in Finnish, but /s/ in Estonian. Not just "may", that is indeed actually the case. Although neither language actually uses <z> in its normal orthography; again, proper nouns (primarily foreign ones) ...
by Xonen
18 Nov 2021 23:29
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: False cognates

it's generally assumed that it was actually /θ/ or /θ:/ (/ts/ in Finnish being a dialectalism that has since spread to the standard language, possibly partially as a spelling pronunciation). I keep hearing this, but with time I've gotten very sceptical about it because I've never heard a single arg...
by Xonen
18 Nov 2021 21:10
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False cognates
Replies: 843
Views: 246278

Re: False cognates

The tangent that grew out of the Ievan Polkka discussion has been split off into its own thread.
by Xonen
17 Nov 2021 23:10
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: Questions on Finnish and Estonian Phonology and Orthography [split]
Replies: 30
Views: 860

Re: False cognates

That was something that confused me about the lyrics in the booklet for Ajattara's album Äpäre . I'd have to did it out, but I'm sure it used < c > in place of < k > in almost all instances, possibly except where < k > came after another consonant (where it would remain < k >)? I'm not familiar wit...
by Xonen
16 Nov 2021 21:54
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False cognates
Replies: 843
Views: 246278

Re: False cognates

Another unusual example: English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka) It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical ...
by Xonen
15 Nov 2021 20:47
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False cognates
Replies: 843
Views: 246278

Re: False cognates

Another unusual example: English "Rat-a-tat" vs Finnish "Hra-ca-ca" (most prominently known in Ievan Polkka) It's an ambiguous example though, as these words don't actually mean anything, they're normally just filler words used for metrical or rhyming purposes in poetic/musical ...
by Xonen
10 Oct 2021 18:36
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Replies: 833
Views: 215243

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Why do people so often assume there were loans? It could just as well be, with such a simple concept, that the word is original to both branches of Indo-Uralic and developed according to now-lost rules, likely changing much more on the IE side than on the Uralic side, from the original root. Again,...
by Xonen
09 Oct 2021 22:31
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences
Replies: 833
Views: 215243

Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Our tales begins, long, long ago... I hate to interrupt, but the Finnish word siemen would seem to contradict any possibility of *nimi being derived from *hnomn. FWIW, LSS Ánte says this: Another possibility is to assume that Proto-Indo-European words were not borrowed directly into Uralic, but med...
by Xonen
08 Oct 2021 13:44
Forum: Teach & Share
Topic: A note on urban population thresholds
Replies: 17
Views: 2341

Re: A note on urban population thresholds

Seems I missed this thread earlier, so first of all: thanks for making it! Highly interesting and informative. I was a bit curious about this, though: Mostly, of course, people starved to death. Good years where the ones where you lived long enough to have babies before starving to death. My underst...
by Xonen
30 Aug 2021 00:14
Forum: Teach & Share
Topic: Curiosities in Finnish
Replies: 38
Views: 8436

Re: Curiosities in Finnish

earlier vaimo also meant just ‘woman’ As far as I'm aware, it was never the standard word for 'woman', though; pretty much all Finnic languages seem to use a descendant of Proto-Finnic *nainen . By contrast, Proto-Finnic *vaimo meant 'spirit' or 'soul', and this meaning is still retained by Estonia...
by Xonen
29 Aug 2021 20:52
Forum: Teach & Share
Topic: Curiosities in Finnish
Replies: 38
Views: 8436

Re: Curiosities in Finnish

The following four terms are very outdated. I remember, in subtitles of Keeping up Appearances, Hyacinth calls Onslow her lanko , but I had to google käly and nato to see which one is which. Huh. I've certainly heard lanko and käly in use - not especially frequently, perhaps, but not solely on tele...
by Xonen
28 Aug 2021 22:58
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: False cognates
Replies: 843
Views: 246278

Re: False cognates

Randomly stumbled upon this: Hawaiian pū 'tree' Livonian pū 'tree' (and likewise in other Finnic languages, but spelled puu ) Another obvious Finno-Polynesian cognate is of course: Māori mana 'mana' Finnish mana 'the hereafter', 'underworld', 'death'; 'mana' Finnish manata 'to conjure'; 'to exorcize...
by Xonen
18 Jun 2021 21:37
Forum: Linguistics & Natlangs
Topic: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here
Replies: 572
Views: 81694

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

[fwiw, I don't know if I've ever heard 'Mickey D' - I don't tend to spend much time with McDonalds enthusiasts - but it would make no sense to me as a phonemic reduction - 'Mc' has /@/, not /I/, at least in modern SSBE (I don't know about RP). That said, it could still occur as a nickname simply be...
by Xonen
01 Jun 2021 12:06
Forum: Everything Else
Topic: Howe & Strauss generational theory
Replies: 29
Views: 21506

Re: Howe & Strauss generational theory

Please read the rules (especially no. 3). We generally try to avoid political debates on this board. And specifically, please refrain from reviving old threads for the purpose of (re)starting one.