Naming Practices

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elemtilas
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by elemtilas »

eldin raigmore wrote: 06 Apr 2018 08:00 I have been reading “The Namesake ” by some famous young Bengali authoress. Apparently Bengali children are given a “pet name“ while still pretty young. This name may be lighthearted or meaningless. This is the name that the child is called en famille and by any intimate acquaintance in private for their entire life. A child is not given a “good name“ until they have to register for school. This name is chosen very seriously by consulting the child’s parents’ elders. It is the name they are called in public; it is the name that is written on all documents; and so on. An example given by the authoress, is that If the child’s grandmother in Kolkata write a letter to the Child in Boston, the envelope will carry the child “good name” , while the body of the letter itself will call the child by the child’s “pet name”.


What I called the “Nickname” given (on Adpihi) to a baby boy by his father’s mother or to a baby girl by her mother‘s father, corresponds to the Bengali “pet name“. On the other hand, the two-part formal individual name inherited from the child’s (sometimes collateral) ancestors, which I called the “formal individual name”, corresponds to the Bengali “good name”.
Ah, interesting system! Thanks for that tidbit!
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alynnidalar
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by alynnidalar »

I've been thinking about incorporating something similar into Tirina naming practices. I guess they already do have private nicknames, but it's not quite the same thing.

I'm sure I've spoken about the system before, but as it currently stands, a Tirina name has three parts:

[given name] ni [ancestral name] rıl [family name]

Starting from the end, family names are your family/clan/??? name. Basically, the name that everyone in your extended family shares, that denotes what legal family unit you are a part of. These names come from a variety of sources, such as archaic words, personal names, place names, modern words, or simply made up wholesale. In modern times, newly-formed families usually use the head of the family's personal name. Sanmra isn't a large country, with fewer than 2 million inhabitants, but there still is plenty of overlap of family names. (additionally, if you're disowned and thus legally have no family, you would use your own personal name.)

Ancestral names are usually a patronymic or matronymic, depending on your gender. (that is, women typically use their mother's name while men use their father's name) If one parent is notably of a higher status than the other (e.g. a political figure) or if the other parent is dead, a person might instead use the "wrong" parent's name. In certain cases, it's also allowed to use the name of a particularly notable ancestor. (you must be able to legally demonstrate descent from such a person to use their name) Most commonly, you'd see this with descendants of Tirina, the first leader of Sanmra; if both of your parents are "ni Tirina", then you're allowed to use it yourself.

Given names are your unique identifier; it would be unusual for two people to have the exact same combination of personal, ancestral, and family names. Given names come from a wide variety of sources, including nouns, pleasant-sounding adjectives, and names of ancestors. As in a lot of cultures, most names don't have transparent meanings, even if historically they came from a noun or phrase. Foreign names are quite rare, although not actually illegal.

Together, these three parts make up a person's legal name in Sanmra, even if they're not likely to actually use them together. Ordinarily, a person is referred to by their given name only. When introducing someone, you would either use their given name + ancestral name or given name + family name, depending on the situation.

But! People also have nicknames, which their family and close friends use. There are standard nicknames for most common names (e.g. Yana for Yarwe), although some people have totally disconnected ones (e.g. Derder "blonde" for someone named Amudan). A marker of a close friendship is telling someone that they can use your nickname (or coming up with a unique nickname just between you--this is also common in romantic relationships). Generally, you don't get a choice in what your family calls you, so you'd better hope you don't do anything hilariously unique as a child that makes a good nickname.

A few names with their nickname versions:
Yarwe -> Yana
Alın -> Lıni, Lıs
Rulo -> Ru
Kasni -> Kasi, Kari, Kas
Mra'al -> Mara
Amir'i -> Miri, Ama
Saya -> Sai, Sara
Edara -> Edi, Dani for women; Eda, Dana, Dawa for men

(you'll notice that not all of the "nicknames" are actually shorter than the full versions!)
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k1234567890y
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by k1234567890y »

the long-longs often have a "child name" which consists of a reduplication of syllables suffixed with the marker popo; besides they have another name as their real name. The "child name" is often of the form CVCV or CVNCVN, with the second syllable being the reduplication of the first syllable.

The real name is given when they are hatched, but they are usually called by their "child name" before they reach the sankel or sankeye stage, and are only called by their real name after they grow up; however, there are exceptions to these, some long-longs don't have a different "child name", and there are some long-longs that are known by their "child name" even when they grow up.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

alynnidalar wrote: 10 Apr 2018 19:14 I've been thinking about incorporating something similar into Tirina naming practices. I guess they already do have private nicknames, but it's not quite the same thing.
... (stuff shipped to save space although it was still relevant) ...
(you'll notice that not all of the "nicknames" are actually shorter than the full versions!)
I really like this!

@k1234567890y, I liked your post too.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by hoeroathlo »

The naming practice of the Abs archipelago ha three names plus place of birth when being formal:
[Given name] [Middle name] [Surname] [place name]

Given name: The given name is made of two parts usually with symbolic meanings with the first part being some kind of descriptor and the second a complement to the descriptor; the parents chooses them through a variety of ways anywhere from astrological signs to things the parent want their child to be like/inherit. And usually the father gives the daughters name and the mother the son’s name.

example:

Aegmundi

Aegvi from Aegvir literally meaning wolf but has a symbolic meaning of strength, aggression, or fearceness

Mundi from Amundr meaning great

So when put together Aegmundi literally means wolf great but has a metaphorical meaning of great strength or power

Middle names : are usually derivatives of the parents name and are modified by the ending of the given name; with a daughter’s middle name coming from her mother and a son from his fathers.

Example:
Let’s say aegmundi had a son named Ytir then his middle name would be aegmuntir
Or that aegmundi has a wife named eliam and they had a daughter named Mauda her middle name would be eliamda

surnames: last names are usually found in pairs with one of two endings –ig meaning son or –ona meaning daughter, and are a combination of one of the two last names of the parents with a sons last name being comprised of the first last name of the father and the second of the mothers, and the daughter the opposite.

Example: Let’s continue with Aegmundi and eliams family, and give them both full names:

Aegmundi johendi elma-fubretig
Eliam maram laehert-kombrona

So with their names the son and daughter can have full names too

Ytir Aegmatir Elam-Kombrig
Mauda eliada Laehert-Fubretona

place Name : the place name is usually only added on to a name in formal situations where people don’t know you.

Example:

Aegmundi johendi elma-fubretig ta Ergeskopt
Eliam maram laehert-kombrona ta Aegmundi
Ytir Aegmatir Elam-Kombrig ta Ergeskopt
Mauda eliada Laehert-Fubretona ta Ergeskopt
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alynnidalar
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by alynnidalar »

There's some nice complexity in there. I like that you'd be able to figure out much of a child's same-gender parent's name from the child's name. Definitely seems like a society that emphasizes family relationships and tracks them.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

hoeroathlo wrote: 13 Apr 2018 21:04 The naming practice of the Abs archipelago ha three names plus place of birth when being formal:
[Given name] [Middle name] [Surname] [place name]
....
surnames: last names are usually found in pairs with one of two endings –ig meaning son or –ona meaning daughter, and are a combination of one of the two last names of the parents with a sons last name being comprised of the first last name of the father and the second of the mothers, and the daughter the opposite.

Example: Let’s continue with Aegmundi and eliams family, and give them both full names:

Aegmundi johendi elma-fubretig
Eliam maram laehert-kombrona

So with their names the son and daughter can have full names too

Ytir Aegmatir Elam-Kombrig
Mauda eliada Laehert-Fubretona
....
I like that!

Can you expand the example to give full-names to their son’s son, their son’s daughter, their daughter’s son, and their daughter’s daughter?
I’m particularly interested in what happens to their half-surnames in two or more generations (depending on sexes etc.)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by hoeroathlo »

I like that!

Can you expand the example to give full-names to their son’s son, their son’s daughter, their daughter’s son, and their daughter’s daughter?
I’m particularly interested in what happens to their half-surnames in two or more generations (depending on sexes etc.)
here you go: https://imgur.com/HvqRD7a

also I came up with those names from memory so they're not all that great but I think that'll work for what you're asking.
also also I misspelled Fubretig for Joherts name and there sin'y suppose to be a dash before his name.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

So the man’s daughter’s son keeps the “Fubret-“
and the woman’s son’s daughter keeps the “Kombr-“.

Just like the Mundugumor geun (“rope”).
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Man in Space »

I've been doing some work on the conworld of late and I have revamped the Tim Ar naming conventions.

Tim Ar individuals' names can be broken down into

given name + + patronymic + soʕ + skin group + üm + cross-skin group + ðên + locative
  • The given name is typically a (short) nominalized sentence—e.g. Éðenȝuúühé from éðen ȝuú ü hé 'he rides the wind' or Áʕeimhromskúlnhéü from áʕe imhr omskúl n hé ü 'his enemies are ashes'. These are typically full of bluster and bravado, and often have a subtle layer of meaning that is left implicit: Éðenȝuúühé's name implies that he has tamed the wind, for instance.
  • The patronymic is the given name of one's father.
  • The skin group, a concept I adapted from indigenous Australia, is a sort of kinship classifier that identifies one's extended heritage and governs what groups of people are marriageable. One's skin group is, with a few exceptions, inherited from one's same-sex parent, and marriage is typically forbidden within a skin group.
  • The cross-skin group is the skin group of one's opposite-sex parent (again, with a few exceptions). One is also forbidden from marrying into one's cross-skin group.
  • The locative identifies the place one ostensibly originates from; this can be a region, province, area, county, city, neighborhood, or landmark. Requirements for using a locative are quite loose and nowadays many are simply passed down patrilineally.
For instance, two of the Tim Ar characters in my setting are Éðenȝuúühé ré Áʕeimhromskúlnhéü soʕ Ðaúʕ Rékó üm ĝ 'Etȝał ðên Suʕekól and Uiriöðêʕhaðáliénhuhé ré Áʕeðésetôlóünhé soʕ Úȝtára üm ĝ ‘Etȝał ðên Kuasakua. These names are incredibly unwieldy, so usually a name of address is used when speaking to or about them. A name of address is typically formed from the salient feature or handful of features from the given name; these characters, for instance, would typically be called Ȝuú (literally 'wind', pragmatically 'Wind(y)') and Uiri.
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CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝate n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
PTO = Proto-Tim Ar-O
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore »

I am going to post a reply in the “Kinship Terms” thread that’s related to the “Naming Practices” of the Adpihi and Reptigan concultures’.
I thought that I ought to post here more detail, (or updated detail in case I’ve changed my mind about something), about those naming practices.

Adpihi and Reptigan people are given both official names and “nicknames”. Here I’m talking only about the five official names.
At least at first; I may talk about the nicknames later.
Three of the names are clan-names.
Spoiler:
A matriclan name that is the same as one’s mother’s matriclan name;
a patriclan name that is the same as one’s father’s patriclan name;
and an “alterclan” name that is the same as the “alterclan” name of one’s parent-of-the-opposite-sex.
So you’d share all three clan-names with any full-sibling of the same sex, if you have any.
Those are not the names this post is intended to be mostly about.
I want to talk mostly about the two individual names that no-one shares with an “actual” full sibling.
(The word “actual” is necessary to distinguish from classificatory siblings; both Adpihi and Reptigan have classificatory kinterm systems, and in particular classify, for instance, parallel cousins as siblings, unlike us.)

All of the kinships mentioned in this post are about “actual” kin, rather than classificatory kin.

Everyone’s first individual name is supposed to be taken for the sake of a same-sex greatgrandparent or collateral ancestor of their same-sex parent.
That is, a man’s first individual name is that of one of the man’s father’s greatgrandfathers or granduncles;
and a woman’s first individual name is that of one of the woman’s mother’s greatgrandmothers or grandaunts.

Everyone’s second individual name is that of one of the their-sex grandpararents or auncles of their opposite-sex parents.
That is, a man’s second individual name is for the sake of one of the man’s mother’s grandfathers or uncles;
and a woman’s second individual name is for the sake of one of her father’s grandmothers or aunts.

There is a specific order that is expected to be followed.

To give first individual names to his sons, a man is usually expected to:
Name his 1st Son after the man’s Father’s Father’s Father
Name his 2nd Son after the man’s Mother’s Father’s Father
Name his 3rd Son after the man’s Father’s Mother’s Father
Name his 4th Son after the man’s Mother’s Mother’s Father
Name his 5th Son after the man’s Father’s Father’s eldest Brother
Name his 6th Son after the man’s Mother’s Father’s eldest Brother
Name his 7th Son after the man’s Father’s Mother’s eldest Brother
Name his 8th Son after the man’s Mother’s Mother’s eldest Brother
Name his 9th Son after the man’s Father’s Father’s 2nd eldest Brother
Name his 10th Son after the man’s Mother’s Father’s 2nd eldest Brother
Name his 11th Son after the man’s Father’s Mother’s 2nd eldest Brother
Name his 12th Son after the man’s Mother’s Mother’s 2nd eldest Brother
etc.

But of course once he is naming his 5th son he encounters the possibility the granduncle in the formula never actually existed!
In which case he’s expected to just go on the the next name on the list.
After the 12th son there’s at least a 50%-50% chance, in my opinion, the grandparent in question never had a third brother; and after the 16th son it becomes unlikely a grandparent ever had a 4th brother!
Even when they were their most prolific, Adpihi and Reptigan settlers seldom had more than seven children, so they weren’t likely to have more than four of each sex.
So, mostly, a man won’t need the part about what to name a 5th or later son, though he’ll probably keep in mind what to name his 5th and 6th and 7th sons, just in case.
Also, he’ll never name two different sons with the same first name; instead of duplicating a name, he’ll go on to the next name in the list.

The earlier in the birth-order the son being named is, the likelier the father doing the naming is to stick to the formula strictly.
Also, the earlier in his own birth-order the father doing the naming is, the likelier he is to stick to the formula strictly.
Like, suppose we have a number of brothers all naming their sons.
The oldest brother might name his first five sons strictly according to the formula, but when he gets to his sixth son just name him after one of his granduncles, not necessarily the one in the formula.
The 2nd oldest brother might name his first four sons strictly according to the formula, but just name his fifth son after one of his FFBs, not necessarily his FF’s oldest Brother.
The 3rd oldest brother might name his first four sons according to the formula, but name his fifth son after one of the brothers of one of his grandparents; not necessarily a brother of his FF (maybe he’ll choose a brother of his MF or FM or MM instead), and not necessarily that grandparent’s oldest brother.
The 4th oldest brother might follow the formula strictly only for his first two sons. Beginning with his third son he might choose to make his son be the namesake of some other greatgrandfather or granduncle than the one in the formula.

The point of a man naming his son after the man’s greatgrandfather or granduncle is seen as to keep that name represented in living members of that branch of the man’s family.
So if a man has brothers who also already have sons, if one of the man’s greatgrandfathers or granduncles has died and doesn’t already have one of that man’s sons or brothers’ sons named after him, the man may name his next son after that greatgrandfather or granduncle. Otherwise, if every greatgrandfather or granduncle already has a namesake among the man’s and his brothers’ sons, but such a deceased greatgrandfather or granduncle doesn’t have two namesakes, the man may name his next son after such a deceased GGF or GFB or GMB.


..........

To give first individual names to her daughters, a woman is usually expected to:
Name her 1st Daughter after the woman’s Mother’s Mother’s Mother
Name her 2nd Daughter after the woman’s Father’s Mother’s Mother
Name her 3rd Daughter after the woman’s Mother’s Father’s Mother
Name her 4th Daughter after the woman’s Father’s Father’s Mother
Name her 5th Daughter after the woman’s Mother’s Mother’s eldest Sister
Name her 6th Daughter after the woman’s Father’s Mother’s eldest Sister
Name her 7th Daughter after the woman’s Mother’s Father’s eldest Sister
Etc.

Again; the earlier in the birth-order the daughter to be named is, the likelier the woman doing the naming is to follow the formula strictly;
and the earlier in the birth-order the woman doing the naming is among her own mother’s daughters or father’s daughters she is, the likelier she is to be strict.
If she’s not one of the first three daughters of either of her parents, and the daughter she’s naming isn’t one of her first three daughters, she might very well just choose any name of one of her greatgrandmothers or grandaunts that none of her daughters or sisters’ daughters has already been given; especially if the GGM or grandaunt in question is deceased. Or if all the GGMs and grandaunts already have a namesake, she may choose to use the name of a deceased one who has only one namesake so far.

.....

Second names follow a similar pattern.
There are two main differences.
Second names come from three generations ago instead of four;
And they come from lineal and collateral ancestors of the parent of the opposite sex, instead of the parent of the same sex.

So for instance

To give second individual names to her Sons, a woman is usually expected to:
Give her 1st Son the second name of her Father’s Father
Give her 2nd Son the second name of her Mother’s Father
Give her 3rd Son the second name of her Father’s eldest Brother
Give her 4th Son the second name of her Mother’s eldest Brother
Give her 5th Son the second name of her Father’s 2nd eldest Brother
Give her 6th Son the second name of her Mother’s 2nd eldest Brother
Give her 7th Son the second name of her Father’s 3rd eldest Brother
etc.

Still skipping any duplicates; still just going on to the next uncle on the list if the canonical uncle never existed; etc.
And it is still true if the woman isnt one of her father’s first two daughters, or not one of her mother’s first two daughters, or the son being named is not one of her own first two sons, she may not follow the naming order exactly.
In fact, if she’s her father’s third daughter and both of her older sisters have already named sons after their father’s father, in naming even her first son she may decide to skip ahead to a name that hasn’t been used yet, especially if the uncle who was carrying that name has died.

....


To give second individual names to his Daughters, a man is usually expected to:
Give his 1st Son the second name of his Mother’s Mother
Give his 2nd Son the second name of his Father’s Mother
Give his 3rd Son the second name of his Mother’s eldest Sister
Give his 4th Son the second name of his Father’s eldest Sister
Give his 5th Son the second name of his Mother’s 2nd eldest Sister
Give his 6th Son the second name of his Father’s 2nd eldest Sister
Give his 7th Son the second name of his Mother’s 3rd eldest Sister
etc.
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k1234567890y
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by k1234567890y »

Before the modern era, Ame people didn't have surnames; besides, parents and children didn't usually have the same name.

Ame people started to adopt surnames during the 15th century, Ame surnames are matrilineal, children get their mothers' surnames. The origin of surnames vary.
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.
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