Making a Music Culture?

Discussions about constructed worlds, cultures and any topics related to constructed societies.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Salmoneus wrote: 15 Mar 2021 21:10 Update: writing a concise, understandable explanation of a large topic you don't completely understand is actually quite difficult, it turns out.
Given that entire books and encyclopedias have been written just on the various musical instruments (Baines, et al), I can see how concision would difficult! I for one look forward the "Readers' Digest" version you come up with!
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Torco wrote: 15 Mar 2021 22:07
Enjoy your swim!
you too, fam, and do let us know if something comes into existence!
Well, these are old now! (I've been writing music from the World (off and on) since I was a kid.) Keep in mind that these are approximations, written with software that doesn't handle variations in tuning well.

Here is an Auntimoanian orchestral excerpt of Wandell's Imperiall Garden Musick.

A bit of a folk dance tune, an Auntimoanian contradance.

A bit of popular tavern back room music, the Tsarqan Rovant. An example of Gnomic Music.
User avatar
Torco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 279
Joined: 14 Oct 2010 08:36

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Torco »

those are nice! and yeah, software really does limit you, that's why I think having a fretless string thing <though i guess any number of other instruments also help> and like actually performing is probably going to be the way for me.

my first instinct is to say that, while cool <i found myself bobbing me head to one tbh>, they do sound quite european. then again, that's the challenge cause musical cultures dig so deep into one's soul innit.
Khemehekis
runic
runic
Posts: 3013
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 15 Mar 2021 23:08 Well, these are old now! (I've been writing music from the World (off and on) since I was a kid.) Keep in mind that these are approximations, written with software that doesn't handle variations in tuning well.

Here is an Auntimoanian orchestral excerpt of Wandell's Imperiall Garden Musick.

A bit of a folk dance tune, an Auntimoanian contradance.

A bit of popular tavern back room music, the Tsarqan Rovant. An example of Gnomic Music.
Coolness! I loved the Gnomic tavern music. According to FrathWiki, Gnomic music means "artmusic", right? [+1] Is Wandell Yeola's Handel?
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 78,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Torco wrote: 17 Mar 2021 19:15 those are nice! and yeah, software really does limit you, that's why I think having a fretless string thing <though i guess any number of other instruments also help> and like actually performing is probably going to be the way for me.

my first instinct is to say that, while cool <i found myself bobbing me head to one tbh>, they do sound quite european. then again, that's the challenge cause musical cultures dig so deep into one's soul innit.
Oh, I neither deny nor bemoan the Europeanness! After all, Auntimoany is supposed to be something of a fantastic caricature of the British Empire at its zenith. I'd argue that if the tuning were closer to in world, they'd sound less European. Those aren't the only examples, some of the not so european ones are actually pretty dreadful simply because I'm trying to actually play an instrument.

For me, I kind of have to deal with the limitation of software, at least for some of the music I write, simply because I actually want to hear it, even if it's not a perfect rendition. Also, I pretty much suck at playing every instrument I try, and dealing with "microtonality" on a string instrument one doesn't even know how to play straight will be a disaster. I did actually get pretty good on the organ, though, and enough to get quite a few gigs.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 17 Mar 2021 21:18 Coolness! I loved the Gnomic tavern music. According to FrathWiki, Gnomic music means "artmusic", right? [+1] Is Wandell Yeola's Handel?
Technically, "Gnomic Music" is their analogue for our "Turkish Music": fashionably foreign, unusual instrumentation (keyboard instruments are all but unheard of in the Eastlands, outside of the Gnomic tradition, they're very big on the Two Orchestras philosophy), the preference for dissonant intervals setting up a rivalry between the melody and the harmony, and the use of percussion instruments as, well, actual percussion / rhythm instruments rather than melodic instruments.

But yes, "armusic" is indeed one of the hallmarks of Gnomic Music, as opposed to "folkmusic" or liturgical music / chant or magial music. It may not be high court artmusic, but it's certainly a relatively high class tavern music!

Wandell is indeed their Handel, and happily for him, he did not have to ride a barge up and down the stinky Thames just for the monarch's pleasure.

Mind you, gardens in Yeola have their own frightful problems, but at least seasickness wouldn't be one of them!
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4436
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Creyeditor »

What programm did you use, if I might ask?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Creyeditor wrote: 18 Mar 2021 18:01 What programm did you use, if I might ask?
Hm. Some of this music was originally composed using (and Egerius will get a kick out of this) Music Composer for Commodore 64; and then eventually quite a bit got written with Music Writer, which was actually a pretty good music editor. I've still got the printouts from that stage! Some got transferred to Lime when notation software began to come out for PC. Most recently I've been using Musescore. I've been toying with the idea of getting Sibelius.

Actually, even before I got Music Composer, I had another music cartridge that couldn't save music. I'd have to compose and play back and then snap a picture of the on screen code so I could later write out the notes on paper. Music Machine I think it was called.
User avatar
Creyeditor
MVP
MVP
Posts: 4436
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 19:32

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Creyeditor »

Thank you a lot [:)] I used to use ForteFree but I feel like they cut down on the free version and sent more spam with time. I will have a look at Musescore at some point in the future.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Creyeditor wrote: 19 Mar 2021 00:53 Thank you a lot [:)] I used to use ForteFree but I feel like they cut down on the free version and sent more spam with time. I will have a look at Musescore at some point in the future.
Musescore, I can't recall now if I paid for that or not. I think I did at some point in time. I know Sibelius is pricey. Musescore has quite a lot of functionality, so I'd recommend it!
User avatar
Torco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 279
Joined: 14 Oct 2010 08:36

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Torco »

elemtilas wrote: 18 Mar 2021 03:50I did actually get pretty good on the organ, though, and enough to get quite a few gigs.
well, good news, there are many excellent tools to turn any old 12TET keyboard into a snazzy shmazzy weirdly intonated one. also plenty of VSTs come with option for that, which should be the easiest way. the best list I've found for such endeavours is this.

https://en.xen.wiki/w/List_of_Microtona ... re_Plugins

Also, I second the recommendation of musescore. it's probably not as complete as the paid stuff, but it's pretty damned solid nontheless. and since youtuber tantacrul got on board the GUI is actually not totally horrible. you can get pretty decent soundfonts for it, too, and when you're happy with the results you can just export the midi data to a DAW and route it to some VST instead... I wonder if the good people at noteperformer are ever likely to make a plugin for musescore.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Torco wrote: 19 Mar 2021 03:39
elemtilas wrote: 18 Mar 2021 03:50I did actually get pretty good on the organ, though, and enough to get quite a few gigs.
well, good news, there are many excellent tools to turn any old 12TET keyboard into a snazzy shmazzy weirdly intonated one. also plenty of VSTs come with option for that, which should be the easiest way. the best list I've found for such endeavours is this.
Nice! Though there just aren't enough keys. :(

Though what I'd really like is an arcicembalo or arciorgano.

I had always hoped such instruments would exist! One of the first data points I ever discovered about the World was a momentous occasion known as the Monumental C to Cb Transposition. When I saw those wonderful ancient keyboards, and some of the wonderful things they're working on now, I knew they were hearing the same kind of music I was.
User avatar
Torco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 279
Joined: 14 Oct 2010 08:36

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Torco »

intellectually, i love it.

but musically, my ear goes "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

truly 12TET has colonized my soul
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Torco wrote: 19 Mar 2021 14:36 intellectually, i love it.

but musically, my ear goes "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

truly 12TET has colonized my soul
Which one!? Or all of them?!

I listen to all kinds of music (my contributions to What Are You Watching are full of music from all over the world) but I really do like occidental forms best of all (and within occidental, I'd include levantine).

Friend, when I hear that kind of occidental music,it's like hearing a bit of heaven! I don't know what any of those intervals are or what the chords are, all I know is that my heart is lifted right on up! Soulshivering! Just wish there were more of this kind of music!

Personally I find 12TET unsettling. It's jinglejangle wibblewobbulosity. Never really knew why until I saw what was going on. Makes much more sense now, to see the underlying shapes.
User avatar
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 638
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Davush »

Just chiming in to say I am enjoying this discussion a lot, and it was cool to hear your music, Elemtilas! I particularly enjoyed the Tsarqan Rovant.

In case anyone is interested in some "very" Arab/less European sounding modes, here are some oud players (it is all improvised, and improvisation or "taqsim" is considered more important/skilfull than recital):

"Saba" صبا – one of my favourite maqams, quite haunting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgPFpf2Yz8

"Segah" سكاه – not too common, but beautiful and delicate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzR8lJ9eqwg

"Rast" راست - one of the most common, somewhere between a western major/minor with a characteristic half-flat third: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FEohh-bcxk

(Of course, as with most Arabic music, one is never "stuck" entirely in a single mode/maqam...especially in improv, so the mode/maqam is really just the overall flavour which the player keeps coming back to.)
User avatar
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 638
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Davush »

elemtilas wrote: 19 Mar 2021 15:00 (and within occidental, I'd include levantine).

Do you mean Levantine Church music? Surely not Levantine music in general? since the vast majority of Levantine music is firmly within the Arabic tradition.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Davush wrote: 19 Mar 2021 17:38
elemtilas wrote: 19 Mar 2021 15:00 (and within occidental, I'd include levantine).

Do you mean Levantine Church music? Surely not Levantine music in general? since the vast majority of Levantine music is firmly within the Arabic tradition.
I would actually consider Arabic specifically and levantine generally to be broadly occidental. Not from any musicological rationale; mostly for cultural and historical relationships It's had with other western musics: such an influence on Spain and Portugal and their descendant musics. No doubt it had earlier inputs as well. Geographical and cultural interchange plays into this. I'm not drawing discrete borders here, just considering broad zones of music with the understanding that there can be overlap and distinction all at the same time. E.g., I would hazard the guess that Faeroese and Omanian music have little in common, yet I'd consider them both "occidental". Same goes for Finnish and Galician.

Broadly speaking (very broadly!) I'd distinguish occidental (Europe, Mediterranean, Levantine, SW Asian), oriental (Central & East China, Korea, Japan, some areas of SE Asia), Central Asian, South Asian, African, American, Australian, Austronesian. Again, plenty of room for overlap, plenty of room for distinction, plenty of room for rearranging categories. These are not categories set in stone, just categories of convenience.
Last edited by elemtilas on 19 Mar 2021 18:43, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3016
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by elemtilas »

Davush wrote: 19 Mar 2021 16:22 Just chiming in to say I am enjoying this discussion a lot, and it was cool to hear your music, Elemtilas! I particularly enjoyed the Tsarqan Rovant.
Thank you!

And thanks for the oud links below. Very beautiful music that.
In case anyone is interested in some "very" Arab/less European sounding modes, here are some oud players (it is all improvised, and improvisation or "taqsim" is considered more important/skilfull than recital):

"Saba" صبا – one of my favourite maqams, quite haunting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XgPFpf2Yz8

"Segah" سكاه – not too common, but beautiful and delicate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzR8lJ9eqwg

"Rast" راست - one of the most common, somewhere between a western major/minor with a characteristic half-flat third: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FEohh-bcxk

(Of course, as with most Arabic music, one is never "stuck" entirely in a single mode/maqam...especially in improv, so the mode/maqam is really just the overall flavour which the player keeps coming back to.)
User avatar
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 638
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Davush »

elemtilas wrote: 19 Mar 2021 18:30
Davush wrote: 19 Mar 2021 17:38
elemtilas wrote: 19 Mar 2021 15:00 (and within occidental, I'd include levantine).

Do you mean Levantine Church music? Surely not Levantine music in general? since the vast majority of Levantine music is firmly within the Arabic tradition.
I would actually consider Arabic specifically and levantine generally to be broadly occidental. Not from any musicological rationale; mostly for cultural and historical relationships It's had with other western musics: such an influence on Spain and Portugal and their descendant musics. No doubt it had earlier inputs as well. Geographical and cultural interchange plays into this. I'm not drawing discrete borders here, just considering broad zones of music with the understanding that there can be overlap and distinction all at the same time. E.g., I would hazard the guess that Faeroese and Omanian music have little in common, yet I'd consider them both "occidental". Same goes for Finnish and Galician.

Broadly speaking (very broadly!) I'd distinguish occidental (Europe, Mediterranean, Levantine, SW Asian), oriental (Central & East China, Korea, Japan, some areas of SE Asia), Central Asian, South Asian, African, American, Australian, Austronesian. Again, plenty of room for overlap, plenty of room for distinction, plenty of room for rearranging categories. These are not categories set in stone, just categories of convenience.
Interesting, although I don't see what makes Levantine music in particular stand out compared to "SW Asia", since Levantine music resembles much more to e.g. Yemeni or Omani music, than European...in which case shouldn't it be Levantine, Mesopotamian, South Arabian, Egyptian, Gulf, (not to mention regions which similar, but not identical, traditions like Turkey, Iran) etc. if we are going to categorise? since they are all just as distinct (or as similar to) from one another?
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2497
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Making a Music Culture?

Post by Salmoneus »

In musical terms, the relevant province is... I don't really know the term for it. In this thing I'm writing, I've briefly mentioned it as "the musical near east", but that's obviously rather vague. In modern terms, "Islamic" might make sense, although that's historically misleading. But in any case, it covers the Arabic, Turkish, Persian, North Indian, and historically Byzantine traditions, with considerable influence on Central Asia and Europe (and presumably South India and Southeast Asia?). This macro-area shares an approach to scales, to melody construction, to performance traditions, and to organology - some of it demonstrably going back to ancient Persia, some of it Hellenistic or Roman in origin. It's quite distinct from (modern) Europe or the Far East, musicologically (Central Asia I think has always been a bit of a melting pot and transition zone for the three zones surrounding it). I don't think there's any musical reason to distinguish "Levantine" music specifically, although of course they may be religious or political reasons.

[the 'Near East' influence on Europe was very slightly via Moorish Spain, but was much more strongly via Byzantium, and also via the Balkans (which musically are quite different from Europe) and though the Roma.]
Post Reply