Caste Systems in Conworlds

Discussions about constructed worlds, cultures and any topics related to constructed societies.
Post Reply
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Man in Space »

Have any of you on the board incorporated some sort of caste system into your settings? If so, how did you do it?

————

I’m thinking about giving the Tim Ar a caste system. The initial divisions I am thinking of:

- Nobility: These guys run the empire, are related to someone who does, operate a sufficiently-sized business empire, or are just really lucky.
- Aristocracy: Landowners originally, this caste expanded into fields such as tax collecting, construction, engineering.
- Hawaladars: The hawaladar caste is tasked with handling monetary transfers on its most basic level, with trust, reputation, and family name being pivotal. Their scope has expanded to cover things such as notary services, banking and finance more generally, legal representation, and negotiation or arbitration.
- Military: Pretty self-explanatory, though the scope is here extended as well (for instance, bounty hunting).
- Priesthood: Largely ceremonial nowadays; back in the day, this was a fundamental division of society in the Tim Ar-O cultural complex. This one also covers medical professions. Educators and counselors are further permissible career choices.
- Scribes: If it involves writing and recordkeeping.
- Merchants: Big business, small business, courier services, logistics, and, for some reason, a lot of computer-related professions.
- Commoners: A lot of everything else falls under this umbrella, particularly trades and agricultural professions.
- Vulgar commoners: Like above, except less prestigious and more “dirty”.
- Untouchables: If you could expect Mike Rowe to film a segment about it, chances are it gets filed in this bin.
- Serfs/slaves: This is something I’ve been debating. I am trying to de-Mary Sue the Tim Ar, but I wonder if this would be too much or too far. Slavery and indentured servitude exist on my conworld (it’s supposed to be a something of a crapsack world).

Movement between castes is difficult, though restrictions on career would have been relaxed quite a bit in the run-up to the time of the story—so someone from basically any caste could join the armed forces (though not as an officer), for instance, and the Scribal and Merchant classes have significant overlap. Choice of profession is, however, still limited by one’s caste.

I feel I should also mention that the Tim Ar have a skin group system. One is considered to be part of both the mother’s and the father’s skin groups at once, and this system is mostly exogamous (a few later additions to this classification scheme allow endogamy, however). I’m not sure if there are other prohibitions due to historical animosity or something.

————

I would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
Khemehekis
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3883
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: Osroene: A Possible Euphratic IE Language

Post by Khemehekis »

The reptoids of the planet Rathar have a caste system:

Caste 1: royalty
Caste 2: high-ranking military, people who fill important duties for royalty
Caste 3: lower-ranking military, merchants and slave-dealers, restaurateurs and chefs
Caste 4: skilled lower workers, footsoldiers
Caste 5: unskilled workers, commoners in general
Caste 6: deformed Ratharians, Ratharian slaves, Ratharians reduced to eating cockroaches
Caste 7?: non-Ratharian slaves (it is disputed whether this even counts as a caste within Ratharian society)

A few months ago, I had a dream wherein I created a caste system for a conworld wherein the letter before your name, when you were addressed, indicated where you fit in the caste system. I'll get into that dream later.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3021
Joined: 22 Nov 2014 04:48

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by elemtilas »

Man in Space wrote: 15 Jun 2021 08:29 Have any of you on the board incorporated some sort of caste system into your settings? If so, how did you do it?
Yep! In fact the various kindreds of Denê had their origins in a caste system, some of the meanings of which can still be understood in the various demonyms. As you know, Denê originated in the Uttermost West, and their earliest cultures were fairly rigidly caste oriented. Movement from one caste to another was impossible, simply because caste was genetic: you look like what your caste is, therefore you're in the caste you look like.

As I recall: the Sharrundaine who are probably most familiar to you as the Denê who inhabit Auntimoany and the Westmarche descend from the magial caste. Their name means Sun Folk or Star Folk. Sharrow is the name of the Star Queen who inhabits the heart of the Sun, and is thus the creator of the local star system. They're still quite adept at magic, surely far surpassing their ancestors who still roam the Spine of the World in the Farther West. Originally, the Sharrundaine were black winged & black haired & blue eyed. Very powerful individuals could be marked out by a streak of white hair and were called Coadhi. Most modern Sharrundaine are primarily black winged, but often have blueblack feathers and patterns that feature dark blues, white, dark reds & violet. A sizeable minority have striking green eyes, which marks them as particularly gifted with mind & will magic. The whole kin strife of the 1700s was a horrible reaction against their supposed desire to rule the blue eyed people through mind magic. I don't believe the Coadhi exist anymore. I haven't seen any in a very long time.

The Troaghladaine, who also inhabit in the Eastlands, in the Holy Hills, the Westmarche, Wythwandiê and the waste lands to the north and south, are descended from the herder caste. Gardening, orchard care and animal husbandry were their specialty. The root behind Troaghla originally meant slave or servant. Traoghladaine were originally brown haired, brown & straw winged, hazel or green eyed folk. Anymore, they tend towards dark brown often with red and black mixed in.

The Alghadaine, who you'll find all over, but mostly along the verges of the Great Forest and down into Vana beyond the Holy Hills, descend from the warrior caste. Fiery personalities and a tendency towards recklessness are reflected in their blazing red hair, red wings and intense blue eyes. Some have streaks of white hair and the backs of their winghands often have patterns of white, yellow and black feathers. Modern Alghadaine are probably the most primitive of all the Denê of the East, most like their ancestral caste. You'll find a lot of mixed ethnicity Alghdaine -- dark red haired or even black haired with red and blue feathers. These are often the result of Alghadaine & Sharrundaine interchange. They're a lot saner.

You haven't met the Wovydaine as of yet. They only live west of the Spine of the World and never came into the Eastlands. Yellow haired, Tawny haired, golden haired often mixed with white or platinum and sometimes with dark straw colours, their feathers could be red or redblack or white or blue or tawny and often a mixture of all colours. They descend from the ruling caste, and the root word behind Wovya meant queenly or regal. That word doesn't exist in any eastern Denê language. There aren't many left in the Uttermost West. After the great wars the led to the implosion of their rule and the downfall of the long unified Denê realm, most of them were slain or outright murdered. Most of the survivors fled over the Ocean of Sunset and became forgotten. A few linger still in the deeps of the Great Forest beyond the Mountains.

But that history was probably a million or more years ago. The Denê of the Eastlands have long forgotten it, though they still have some lore of those times whose meaning they are unware of. There were other castes and subcastes as well, though I no longer recall the details. They're written down somewhere...
I’m thinking about giving the Tim Ar a caste system. The initial divisions I am thinking of:

- Serfs/slaves: This is something I’ve been debating. I am trying to de-Mary Sue the Tim Ar, but I wonder if this would be too much or too far. Slavery and indentured servitude exist on my conworld (it’s supposed to be a something of a crapsack world).
If it exists, go with it! While it's not a caste system per se anymore, the Werrefolk of Auntimoany practice several kinds of slavery (debt slavery, felonious slavery, honour slavery, indentured slavery). Even Denê find themselves victim of the system from time to time!
I feel I should also mention that the Tim Ar have a skin group system. One is considered to be part of both the mother’s and the father’s skin groups at once, and this system is mostly exogamous (a few later additions to this classification scheme allow endogamy, however). I’m not sure if there are other prohibitions due to historical animosity or something.
Did you actually mean "skin" group here or "kin" group??

For Denê, it's feather and hair colour that are focuses of attention more than skin. But I'd really be interested to learn more about that "skin group system"!
I would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?
In the ancient world, Denê would have "shoehorned" them into existing castes. Shoehorning being a terribly inappropriate term for a race of people who wear no shoes!
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3030
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Salmoneus »

Man in Space wrote: 15 Jun 2021 08:29 Have any of you on the board incorporated some sort of caste system into your settings? If so, how did you do it?
I think it's useful to question the usefulness of the concept of 'caste'. In some senses, virtually all pre-modern societies will be caste-based; in the narrower sense, the concept is a 20th century invention.

We can break 'caste' up into two systems, roughly corresponding to 'varna' and 'jati'.

The latter is more interesting. In this sense, caste is about the existence of endogamous social groups: groups who only marry other members of the group. Sometimes these groups will claim descent from a common ancestor; sometimes not. Their origins generally combine descent, location, and occupation. Endogamous groups may specialise more or less strongly in a given trade, but this is not essential. Endogamy need not be absolute: there may be more specific rules (Xs may marry Xs or Ys, but never Zs), which may cause some groups to become subgroups of larger groups. Rules may be asymmetrical: perhaps men can marry outsiders, but women can't. Endogamy is often accompanied by other forms of ritual avoidance, in speech or action, which may in some cases extend to 'untouchability'.

The other concept is essentially of class: society contains groups who have different roles in society, and who see themselves as superior or inferior to other groups, forming a social hierarchy. If there are endogamy groups, these groups may be assigned to specific classes, but not necessarily (in many cases it wasn't until the 20th century that some jatis were allocated a varna). A class system is almost universal in agricultural societies.


The thing to bear in mind is that endogamy works 'best' in small communities (where everyone knows what group everyone belongs to).
————

I’m thinking about giving the Tim Ar a caste system. The initial divisions I am thinking of:

- Nobility: These guys run the empire, are related to someone who does, operate a sufficiently-sized business empire, or are just really lucky.
- Aristocracy: Landowners originally, this caste expanded into fields such as tax collecting, construction, engineering.
- Hawaladars: The hawaladar caste is tasked with handling monetary transfers on its most basic level, with trust, reputation, and family name being pivotal. Their scope has expanded to cover things such as notary services, banking and finance more generally, legal representation, and negotiation or arbitration.
- Military: Pretty self-explanatory, though the scope is here extended as well (for instance, bounty hunting).
- Priesthood: Largely ceremonial nowadays; back in the day, this was a fundamental division of society in the Tim Ar-O cultural complex. This one also covers medical professions. Educators and counselors are further permissible career choices.
- Scribes: If it involves writing and recordkeeping.
- Merchants: Big business, small business, courier services, logistics, and, for some reason, a lot of computer-related professions.
- Commoners: A lot of everything else falls under this umbrella, particularly trades and agricultural professions.
- Vulgar commoners: Like above, except less prestigious and more “dirty”.
- Untouchables: If you could expect Mike Rowe to film a segment about it, chances are it gets filed in this bin.
- Serfs/slaves: This is something I’ve been debating. I am trying to de-Mary Sue the Tim Ar, but I wonder if this would be too much or too far. Slavery and indentured servitude exist on my conworld (it’s supposed to be a something of a crapsack world).
To my mind, this seems like a large number of social classes (three or four would be more common), but a small number of endogamy groups. In particular, 'commoners' is a very big group, and it includes most of the people you might normally assume might form their own endogamous groups (blacksmiths, tanners, potters, boatmen, etc).
I feel I should also mention that the Tim Ar have a skin group system. One is considered to be part of both the mother’s and the father’s skin groups at once, and this system is mostly exogamous (a few later additions to this classification scheme allow endogamy, however). I’m not sure if there are other prohibitions due to historical animosity or something.
I don't understand what you mean here. If you're part of both parent's groups, how can it be a skin group? If it's only 'mostly' exogamous, how is it a skin group? How does 'animosity' factor in? It's hard to have animosity between skin groups because members of the different groups live together not only in the same village but in the same family!

[eg among the Martuthunira: if you're a Panaka woman, then your mother is Purungu and your father is Palyarri, while your husband is Karimarra. It's hard to build up any systemic animosity between, say, Purungu and Karimarra when every Purungu had a Karimarra father, and every Karimarra has Purungu children...]

A skin group is a cyclical categorisation of marriage eligibility. Its two characteristics are that it's a category defined by your parents - if your father is an A then you're a B, and so on - and that it defines (or at least strongly suggests) the skin group of your future spouse.

Generally in these systems it's not even meaningful to talk about inheriting a group from each parent: since a parent of A group has to marry someone from B group, every child of an A is also the child of a B, and it becomes meaningless to talk about inheriting from one parent, the other, or both. And you can't belong to the actual group of your parent, because then it wouldn't be cyclical anymore, and it wouldn't be a skin group.
————

I would also like to ask, since this empire is large: When an empire with a caste system annexes some other population, how are they integrated into the caste system? Do they shoehorn them into existing categories? Call them all their own group? Some other strategy?
Each endogamous group is a distinct endogamous group. In a large area, there may be a large number of them. Hence, in India, even among only the Scheduled Castes, who are only about 1/6th of the population, there are over 1,000 distinct castes (in the jati sense), many of which have many subcastes. Some groups that come into contact a lot and have looser endogamy rules might merge into one, or might simply recognise themselves as subgroups of a larger group, but even this is an exception to the norm.

Classes, on the other hand, as they generally define a function in society, tend to be more welcoming of foreigners (who come from societies in which similar functions are performed!). Perhaps the nobility of two neighbouring, allied countries might strengthen their alliance by intermarriage, recognising each other as sharing a class. On the other hand, of course, the ruling family of a defeated enemy nation might not be welcomed into the new ruling class, and might instead be ritually demoted to a lower class, or even made untouchable.

So, in India, there was a vague sense - later made absolute by the British - that different jatis in different parts of India, even those that were never Aryan, still broadly belonged to the same four Aryan varnas. Of course, what that means in practice is probably variable, not only with the society as a whole, but with each endogamous group individually.
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Man in Space »

Khemehekis wrote: 15 Jun 2021 15:43A few months ago, I had a dream wherein I created a caste system for a conworld wherein the letter before your name, when you were addressed, indicated where you fit in the caste system. I'll get into that dream later.
I'd love to read about it!
elemtilas wrote: 15 Jun 2021 16:41
I feel I should also mention that the Tim Ar have a skin group system. One is considered to be part of both the mother’s and the father’s skin groups at once, and this system is mostly exogamous (a few later additions to this classification scheme allow endogamy, however). I’m not sure if there are other prohibitions due to historical animosity or something.
Did you actually mean "skin" group here or "kin" group??
I did mean "skin group".
Salmoneus wrote: 15 Jun 2021 18:10
I feel I should also mention that the Tim Ar have a skin group system. One is considered to be part of both the mother’s and the father’s skin groups at once, and this system is mostly exogamous (a few later additions to this classification scheme allow endogamy, however). I’m not sure if there are other prohibitions due to historical animosity or something.
I don't understand what you mean here. If you're part of both parent's groups, how can it be a skin group? If it's only 'mostly' exogamous, how is it a skin group? How does 'animosity' factor in? It's hard to have animosity between skin groups because members of the different groups live together not only in the same village but in the same family!

[eg among the Martuthunira: if you're a Panaka woman, then your mother is Purungu and your father is Palyarri, while your husband is Karimarra. It's hard to build up any systemic animosity between, say, Purungu and Karimarra when every Purungu had a Karimarra father, and every Karimarra has Purungu children...]

A skin group is a cyclical categorisation of marriage eligibility. Its two characteristics are that it's a category defined by your parents - if your father is an A then you're a B, and so on - and that it defines (or at least strongly suggests) the skin group of your future spouse.

Generally in these systems it's not even meaningful to talk about inheriting a group from each parent: since a parent of A group has to marry someone from B group, every child of an A is also the child of a B, and it becomes meaningless to talk about inheriting from one parent, the other, or both. And you can't belong to the actual group of your parent, because then it wouldn't be cyclical anymore, and it wouldn't be a skin group.
OK. I was under the impression that you had moieties that people were part of and it was inherited. The Tim Ar system had you inherit two moieties; the one you "were" was that of the same-sex parent, with which group you could not marry, but you couldn't marry someone from your opposite-sex parent's moiety either. And "animosity" basically meant "from time immemorial there's been a grudge so these two groups won't marry out of spite and it's too late to change traditional practice". I am probably going to get rid of the skin group idea though.

----------------

As it turns out…I have a few varna-like terms already defined for the Tim Ar. In descending order of prestige:

- Hia: Any culture descended from the PTO cultural complex (includes the Tim Ar as primus inter pares, as you might expect)
- Támrek: The Täptäg
- Kán: Those of Caber descent
- Uiráha: A descriptor for certain peoples in the Burning Mountains (< CK wit'a-ha 'mountain people')
- Kia: Everyone else except Uikúa individuals (q.v.)
- Uikúa: Various groups, many of which were not related, that battled the Tim Ar at various points

----------------

So, restructuring things a bit…again, in decreasing order of prestige, how's this for a jati-like inventory? Is it at least a start? What other dimensions could I add?

- Nobility: Includes intelligence personnel, high-level administrators, and military officers
- Landed Gentry: Landowners
- Aristocracy: Gigabusiness and old money
- Hawaladars: Engaged in money transmission and numerous professions involving trust, confidentiality, and/or money
- Merchants: Big business, small business, couriers, logistics, and, inexplicably, a lot of IT-related stuff
- Scribes: Recordkeepers, historians, documentarians, researchers, journalists, people who preserve information
- Academicians: Scientists, inventors, engineers, teachers, &c.
- Mendicants: Pharmacists, general practitioners (basically, anything medical that doesn't involve blood), but also people who deal with food/beverages
- Mercenaries: Middle-rank military personnel, security workers, legal professionals, weaponsmiths, weapons dealers, armorers
- Commoners: Tradesmen and skilled workers of various types, farmers or farm administrators, first responders/emergency personnel, some religious occupations
- Vulgar Commoners: Musicians, entertainers, professional athletes, artists, casino workers, menial laborers, unskilled workers, some religious occupations
- Chattel: Chattel slaves, bonded laborers, indentured servants, and the like
- Untouchables: Basically, if the job description deals with blood, excrement, saliva, bodily discharge, or dead bodies/remains; also includes some high-risk or dangerous jobs, e.g. involving possible exposure to radiation or carcinogens

----------------

The untouchables involve a lot of the jobs you'd think—butchers, gravediggers, sanitation workers, undertakers, executioners, people who deal with night soil, people who handle manure, and so on. There's also a number that might be surprising: Most doctors, surgeons, and dentists are considered untouchables, for instance, and not just phlebotomists; pest control workers; certain cosmetic workers (having to deal with the hair and nails); and lots of enlisted/lower-rank military roles, particularly infantry. Specialized roles—e.g. pilot, navigator, mess officer—are reserved for the higher castes.

It should be noted that there is a little bit of plasticity in the scheme; the infantry example is really good to show this. As long as an infantryman is within that role, he is considered to be untouchable. If he was originally from a different caste and happened to enlist, his untouchable status lasts only as long as he is within a killing role in the military, and when his service is completed or he is promoted out of the infantry, he reverts back to his original caste status. Distinguished conduct can occasionally lead to increases in caste, particularly if someone from a low caste is promoted to officer status.

----------------

There are restrictions on what varnas can belong to which jatis.

- Hia can be members of any jati except for chattel.
- Támrek can be members of any jati except those of the nobility, landed gentry, and chattel.
- Kán can be members of the merchant, scribe, academician, mendicant, commoner, vulgar commoner, or untouchable jatis.
- Uiráha can be members of the scribe, academician, mendicant, commoner, vulgar commoner, or untouchable jatis.
- Kia can be members of the commoner, vulgar commoner, or untouchable jatis.
- Uikúa can be, at best, vulgar commoners.

----------------

I have to come up with a lot of the in-system vocabulary for this. Aside from the prospective varna names, I do have one for a possible jati: Húgakua (< CK p'uǧakhu-a 'sweat people'), the chattel caste.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by eldin raigmore »

Five of my six concultures have Classificatory kinship systems and prescriptive marriage systems.
All of those five have both matriclans and patriclans.
Two of them also have “alterclans” like the Mundugumor geun or “ropes”.
A person’s marriageability section (“skin”) is determined by their (and sometimes their parents’ and sometimes their grandparents’) clans and their sex.
From EGO’s point of view ALTER’s kin class is determined by EGO’s and ALTER’s sections (“skins”).

….

For three of those concultures I’ve chosen the (English) meanings for the names of the matriclans and patriclans; but I don’t yet have the conlang words for them yet.

….

I have considered hereditary castes which are endogamous and wherein each caste can pursue only a limited set (maybe only one) of occupations or professions, and each occupation or profession can be pursued by only a limited set (maybe only one) of castes.

It’s as if the AFL and CIO were composed of hereditary unions. An AFL trade Union would be a joti, and a CIO industrial Union would be a varna.

But I don’t have a conculture to put it in yet.

Last edited by eldin raigmore on 03 Nov 2023 07:46, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Flavia
sinic
sinic
Posts: 361
Joined: 13 Apr 2021 14:53
Location: Sol III

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Flavia »

My Damtan Proto-Plakians and their descendants have a skin class system. The names are krpləu and supakrta and they are exogamic. The boys are in mother's class and girls in the father's, so siblings are from different classes.
XIPA
:pol: > :eng: > :esp: > :lat: > :fra: > :por: > :deu:
Abaniscen cancasirnemor
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by eldin raigmore »

Titus Flavius wrote: 17 Jun 2021 12:50 My Damtan Proto-Plakians and their descendants have a skin class system. The names are krpləu and supakrta and they are exogamic. The boys are in mother's class and girls in the father's, so siblings are from different classes.
Those are like the Mundugumor “ropes”. Everyone inherits membership from the parent of the opposite sex.

….

My simplest system for (Early) Adpihi has three matriclans and three patriclans and three “ropes”; and nobody can share a clan with their parent-in-law.
Since full siblings are always in the same matriclan and the same patriclan, if the “ropes” weren’t included, a man and his sister could marry a woman and her brother; and I didn’t want that.
Including the “ropes” keeps it from being a direct-sister-exchange system.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 15 Aug 2021 01:26, edited 1 time in total.
Khemehekis
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3883
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Khemehekis »

Man in Space wrote: 17 Jun 2021 07:03
Khemehekis wrote: 15 Jun 2021 15:43A few months ago, I had a dream wherein I created a caste system for a conworld wherein the letter before your name, when you were addressed, indicated where you fit in the caste system. I'll get into that dream later.
I'd love to read about it!
All right, first, so everyone knows, this was an introverted dream. I was walking across streams and tubes and rooms with cushions while I was thinking up this system for a proposed conworld.

In this system, the earlier the letter in the alphabet, the higher the person was on the social hierarchy, and the later the letter in the alphabet, the lower the person was. Since I never actually attached it to a realized conworld, nor did I come up with the alphabetical order for this conlang, I'll use English's alphabet as an example.

The last letter of the alphabet was applied to children, who were at the bottom of the social hierarchy. It was like if we addressed children as z'Ava, z'Atticus, z'Lyric, z'Mason, etc.

One step up from children were adolescents -- like if English speakers addressed teens as y'Becky, y'Zach, y'Nathan, y'Carly, y'Emma, etc.

Next up were prostitutes, low-level drug dealers, assorted criminals . . . you know the deal. Like if Polly Adler were x'Polly, or if Mark David Chapman were x'Mark.

The next level up were unemployed nerds. This would be like if Elliot Rodger were w'Elliot, or Jonathan Mitchell were w'Jonathan. (Nerds who are employed in IT, in creating profitable pop culture franchises, or whatever would be higher up the social hierarchy.)

The next level up from unemployed nerds were unemployed bohemians. As if I were called v'Landau or v'Khemehekis.

Then came adults in minimum-wage jobs, as if you called Dave who works at Mickey D's t'Dave.

In the middle were all sort of employed adults, which I didn't work out in my dream. I thought a bit about what the top of the hierarchy would look like. Royals and high-ranking government and religious officials would be at the top, as if we said a'Elizabeth II and a'Trump (or b'Elizabeth II and b'Trump -- I was really undecided on whether vowels could be introductory letters). I considered having children address their two parents as a'Mom and a'Dad or b'Mom and b'Dad, as if these were higher authority figures over children than anyone else but God.

Then I woke up.

If the speakers developed these prefixes before written language, then their alphabetical order would be based on the hierarchy.

Conversely, if the speakers had an alphabet (or abjad) before they developed this hierarchy-marking, then they would use these prefixes based on choosing a letter's place in alphabetical order, just like if we started saying "A-Biden, B-Sanders . . . Z-Malaysia".
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
User avatar
eldin raigmore
korean
korean
Posts: 6352
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by eldin raigmore »

In my Reptigan conculture there’s a sort of exogamous “caste” system; people should marry spouses from a different stratum of society than themselves. Or if they’re young, from a different stratum than their parents’. Or if their intended spouse is young, they should acquire new parents-in-law from different strata than their own.

There was a Native North American culture (the Natchez people) in RL that was said to have a somewhat similar system (people in the top three strata had to marry spouses from the lowest stratum). Apparently some scholars doubt it could have been stable without constant expansion; but I don’t know that it couldn’t be tweaked in a conworld to be something more permanent-ish.

In the Natchez system a child was born into the next higher rank than their higher-ranking parent (unless they were in the lowest or highest rank). During the reign of some oriental dynasty, however, the heir of a titled person inherited the next lower title; they had to re-earn the right to reclaim their predecessor’s full rank.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 17 Sep 2023 05:27, edited 1 time in total.
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 3030
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Salmoneus »

Man in Space wrote: 17 Jun 2021 07:03OK. I was under the impression that you had moieties that people were part of and it was inherited.
Well, yes, but also no.

So, quick intro:

Moieties and Skin Groups

Moieties are division of a society into two goups; they distinguished from non-binary divisions because typically in a moiety system there is a great concern with balance and interaction between the two moieties: they're not just two groups that happen to live near each other, they're two halves of the social group.

There are two common forms of moiety: lineal moieties and generational moieties. By itself, the term "moiety" generally refers to lineral moieties. This is when half the society claims to be descended from one ancestor, and the other half, from another. Moieties can be "patrilineal" - children have the same moiety as their father - or "matrilineal", with children having the same moiety as their mother. There is generally a requirement that men of one moiety marry women of the other moiety.

Generational moiety, on the other hand, is when parents belong to a different group from children. In this sense of moiety, there is generally a requirement that people marry people of the SAME moiety. However, other parts of society are often still divided up between the two moieties.

[note: because moiety is calculated directly through descent - the child is the opposite moiety from their parent - generational moiety is not necessarily the same as 'a generation' in the modern western sense. If a woman has one child at 20 and another at 30, and her children do likewise, then 6 years later two children will be born in the same year: one a grandchild of the matriarch, and one a great-grandchild. In the West we would say the two children are part of the same generation, but they would not be members of the same generational moiety]

Now, what happens if you have generational AND lineal moiety in the same society?

Answer: you get four groups, which we can call 'skin groups' or 'sections'. In odd generations, everyone is either an A or a B; in even generations, everyone is either an X or a Y:
A father + B mother > X
B father + A mother > Y
X father + Y mother > A
Y mother + X father > B

On the surface, this doesn't look like lineal moiety, because sons and daughters have a different section from their fathers and mothers. However, section membership is still inherited: every man belongs to the same section as his paternal grandfather, and every woman belongs to the same section as his maternal grandmother. This could therefore be defined as patrilineal moiety, with "A" and "X" simply being generation-marking terms for people of one moiety, and "B" and "Y" naming different generations within the other moiety. However, it could ALSO (and equally) be considered a matrilineal moiety system, with "A" and "Y" naming generations within a matrilineally-inherited moiety, and "B" and "X" being generations of the other moiety. It doesn't really matter: since everybody belongs to a moiety, and can only marry members of the other moiety, and no children are superficially the same section as their parents, it no longer makes sense to talk about lineal kinship groups.

[some skin group systems are more complicated than this, and they can be asymmetrical: sometimes skin group memberships cycles four generations in the female line but two generations in the male]

Interestingly, although today this system is extremely rare, it's often considered to be the 'original' form of human kinship, from which all other kinship systems can be derived through increasing breakdown of this system through adaptation to larger population sizes (both lineal and generational moiety are individually much more common and useful in small social groups). However, this is controversial. Counterintuitively, the societies most famous for skin group systems - in Western Australia - mostly only adopted these systems in the 1930s-1940s. [some groups had them earlier, but they spread rapidly across Australia in that time period].


The Tim Ar system had you inherit two moieties; the one you "were" was that of the same-sex parent, with which group you could not marry, but you couldn't marry someone from your opposite-sex parent's moiety either. And "animosity" basically meant "from time immemorial there's been a grudge so these two groups won't marry out of spite and it's too late to change traditional practice". I am probably going to get rid of the skin group idea though.
This isn't moiety, because otherwise you couldn't marry anyone! But it's certainly not uncommon for there to be additional exogamy rules based on one's 'other' parent.
As it turns out…I have a few varna-like terms already defined for the Tim Ar. In descending order of prestige:

- Hia: Any culture descended from the PTO cultural complex (includes the Tim Ar as primus inter pares, as you might expect)
- Támrek: The Täptäg
- Kán: Those of Caber descent
- Uiráha: A descriptor for certain peoples in the Burning Mountains (< CK wit'a-ha 'mountain people')
- Kia: Everyone else except Uikúa individuals (q.v.)
- Uikúa: Various groups, many of which were not related, that battled the Tim Ar at various points
Are these like class/varna? They sound more like ethnicities?
So, restructuring things a bit…again, in decreasing order of prestige, how's this for a jati-like inventory? Is it at least a start? What other dimensions could I add?

- Nobility: Includes intelligence personnel, high-level administrators, and military officers
- Landed Gentry: Landowners
- Aristocracy: Gigabusiness and old money
- Hawaladars: Engaged in money transmission and numerous professions involving trust, confidentiality, and/or money
- Merchants: Big business, small business, couriers, logistics, and, inexplicably, a lot of IT-related stuff
- Scribes: Recordkeepers, historians, documentarians, researchers, journalists, people who preserve information
- Academicians: Scientists, inventors, engineers, teachers, &c.
- Mendicants: Pharmacists, general practitioners (basically, anything medical that doesn't involve blood), but also people who deal with food/beverages
- Mercenaries: Middle-rank military personnel, security workers, legal professionals, weaponsmiths, weapons dealers, armorers
- Commoners: Tradesmen and skilled workers of various types, farmers or farm administrators, first responders/emergency personnel, some religious occupations
- Vulgar Commoners: Musicians, entertainers, professional athletes, artists, casino workers, menial laborers, unskilled workers, some religious occupations
- Chattel: Chattel slaves, bonded laborers, indentured servants, and the like
- Untouchables: Basically, if the job description deals with blood, excrement, saliva, bodily discharge, or dead bodies/remains; also includes some high-risk or dangerous jobs, e.g. involving possible exposure to radiation or carcinogens
This sounds more like a class/varna system, though it's extremely complex for that. A jati system would probably have dozens, hundreds, in a large society even thousands of groups.

[other comments: I don't really understand what sort of economy you're thinking of, with distinct classes for 'intelligence personnel', 'gigabusiness', 'big business' and 'landowners'. I'm not really sure why journalists, for instance, would only marry other journalists and historians - why are they unacceptable to everyone else? A "mendicant" is a beggar, not a doctor. Why would legal professionals marry security guards? (why not recordskeepers, for instance?). And bear in mind: caste almost always divides tradesmen/artisans from farmers. Incidentally, why do you only use a con-word for one of these groups? I'd name them all in a conlang, or all in English (your 'Hawaladars' sound to me like a class of aediles?)]
The untouchables involve a lot of the jobs you'd think—butchers, gravediggers, sanitation workers, undertakers, executioners, people who deal with night soil, people who handle manure, and so on. There's also a number that might be surprising: Most doctors, surgeons, and dentists are considered untouchables, for instance, and not just phlebotomists; pest control workers; certain cosmetic workers (having to deal with the hair and nails); and lots of enlisted/lower-rank military roles, particularly infantry. Specialized roles—e.g. pilot, navigator, mess officer—are reserved for the higher castes.
How does that work!? If a dentist is untouchable, nobody who isn't untouchable could have dental work done!
It should be noted that there is a little bit of plasticity in the scheme; the infantry example is really good to show this. As long as an infantryman is within that role, he is considered to be untouchable. If he was originally from a different caste and happened to enlist, his untouchable status lasts only as long as he is within a killing role in the military, and when his service is completed or he is promoted out of the infantry, he reverts back to his original caste status. Distinguished conduct can occasionally lead to increases in caste, particularly if someone from a low caste is promoted to officer status.
I don't think you're talking about caste at all, if you can just be promoted out of it, and if untouchability depends on current occupation. The whole point of caste is that it's fixed and inherited!
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Man in Space »

Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13[highly informative and useful discussion about moieties]
Thank you! That was extremely both detailed and clear.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13
As it turns out…I have a few varna-like terms already defined for the Tim Ar. In descending order of prestige:

- Hia: Any culture descended from the PTO cultural complex (includes the Tim Ar as primus inter pares, as you might expect)
- Támrek: The Täptäg
- Kán: Those of Caber descent
- Uiráha: A descriptor for certain peoples in the Burning Mountains (< CK wit'a-ha 'mountain people')
- Kia: Everyone else except Uikúa individuals (q.v.)
- Uikúa: Various groups, many of which were not related, that battled the Tim Ar at various points
Are these like class/varna? They sound more like ethnicities?
Yes, there is a significant ethnic and racial component to how the Tim Ar system handles things. It's kind of a crapsack world.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13
So, restructuring things a bit…again, in decreasing order of prestige, how's this for a jati-like inventory? Is it at least a start? What other dimensions could I add?

- Nobility: Includes intelligence personnel, high-level administrators, and military officers
- Landed Gentry: Landowners
- Aristocracy: Gigabusiness and old money
- Hawaladars: Engaged in money transmission and numerous professions involving trust, confidentiality, and/or money
- Merchants: Big business, small business, couriers, logistics, and, inexplicably, a lot of IT-related stuff
- Scribes: Recordkeepers, historians, documentarians, researchers, journalists, people who preserve information
- Academicians: Scientists, inventors, engineers, teachers, &c.
- Mendicants: Pharmacists, general practitioners (basically, anything medical that doesn't involve blood), but also people who deal with food/beverages
- Mercenaries: Middle-rank military personnel, security workers, legal professionals, weaponsmiths, weapons dealers, armorers
- Commoners: Tradesmen and skilled workers of various types, farmers or farm administrators, first responders/emergency personnel, some religious occupations
- Vulgar Commoners: Musicians, entertainers, professional athletes, artists, casino workers, menial laborers, unskilled workers, some religious occupations
- Chattel: Chattel slaves, bonded laborers, indentured servants, and the like
- Untouchables: Basically, if the job description deals with blood, excrement, saliva, bodily discharge, or dead bodies/remains; also includes some high-risk or dangerous jobs, e.g. involving possible exposure to radiation or carcinogens
This sounds more like a class/varna system, though it's extremely complex for that. A jati system would probably have dozens, hundreds, in a large society even thousands of groups.
This is actually kind of a mid-level distinction.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13other comments: I don't really understand what sort of economy you're thinking of, with distinct classes for 'intelligence personnel', 'gigabusiness', 'big business' and 'landowners'.
This was an artifact of stubborn resistance to getting rid of the old ways in a more modern world—they just kind of expanded the castes by whatever seemed like the closest fit.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13A "mendicant" is a beggar, not a doctor.
Oops! If you've ever read Alastair Reynolds, the Ice Mendicants were the first time I can recall being exposed to the word "mendicant", and they were, among other things, healers, so that's where the thought came from.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13I'm not really sure why journalists, for instance, would only marry other journalists and historians - why are they unacceptable to everyone else?

[. . .]

Why would legal professionals marry security guards? (why not recordskeepers, for instance?). And bear in mind: caste almost always divides tradesmen/artisans from farmers.
Old habits, classism, and racism die hard. There are also external factors: The Tlar Kyanà don't have much of a caste system, and they're the Tim Ar's biggest opponent (if the Tim Ar are the US, the Tlar Kyanà are Russia/the USSR), so the caste system is held up as a point of national pride or supposed superiority.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13Incidentally, why do you only use a con-word for one of these groups? I'd name them all in a conlang, or all in English (your 'Hawaladars' sound to me like a class of aediles?)]
That is actually not a conword.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13
The untouchables involve a lot of the jobs you'd think—butchers, gravediggers, sanitation workers, undertakers, executioners, people who deal with night soil, people who handle manure, and so on. There's also a number that might be surprising: Most doctors, surgeons, and dentists are considered untouchables, for instance, and not just phlebotomists; pest control workers; certain cosmetic workers (having to deal with the hair and nails); and lots of enlisted/lower-rank military roles, particularly infantry. Specialized roles—e.g. pilot, navigator, mess officer—are reserved for the higher castes.
How does that work!? If a dentist is untouchable, nobody who isn't untouchable could have dental work done!
I'm kind of glad you brought this up.

Untouchables can, in a very restricted set of circumstances, still be interacted with, albeit subject to a number of restrictions and caveats. There is a very limited, but not empty, set of "acceptable" circumstances to significantly interact with them. What happens a lot of the time with medical outfits is, you get someone from a higher caste who is basically the medical/dental expert and they order the untouchables around. (Which is not to say that there aren't specific clinics specifically by and for untouchables. Some hospitals, particularly dealing with trauma and infectious diseases, started out as being by untouchables, for untouchables, but they eventually acquired so much skill and experience in their fields that it became…if not wholly accepted, then at least semi-palatable to patronize them.)

The paradigm of a high-caste leader with an untouchable staff is actually fairly common in industries where untouchables do the hands-on work. The boss will often be separated from the untouchables physically, but they can still give orders.
Salmoneus wrote: 18 Jun 2021 23:13
It should be noted that there is a little bit of plasticity in the scheme; the infantry example is really good to show this. As long as an infantryman is within that role, he is considered to be untouchable. If he was originally from a different caste and happened to enlist, his untouchable status lasts only as long as he is within a killing role in the military, and when his service is completed or he is promoted out of the infantry, he reverts back to his original caste status. Distinguished conduct can occasionally lead to increases in caste, particularly if someone from a low caste is promoted to officer status.
I don't think you're talking about caste at all, if you can just be promoted out of it, and if untouchability depends on current occupation. The whole point of caste is that it's fixed and inherited!
I was unclear: While changing castes is technically possible, it is extremely, extremely difficult to move between them. The main exceptions to this are service in the infantry, wherein you're untouchable only as long as you're active duty on the ground, and loss of status as a result of due process resulting a criminal conviction, which is often permanent.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
Torco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 303
Joined: 14 Oct 2010 08:36

Re: Caste Systems in Conworlds

Post by Torco »

[other comments: I don't really understand what sort of economy you're thinking of, with distinct classes for 'intelligence personnel', 'gigabusiness', 'big business' and 'landowners'. I'm not really sure why journalists, for instance, would only marry other journalists and historians - why are they unacceptable to everyone else? A "mendicant" is a beggar, not a doctor. Why would legal professionals marry security guards? (why not recordskeepers, for instance?). And bear in mind: caste almost always divides tradesmen/artisans from farmers. Incidentally, why do you only use a con-word for one of these groups?
a possible answer: extremely late capitalism, with rates of profit falling lower and lower. as the investments pay off after not years but centuries, company culture starts to become the new frontier in research into what drives profits: a clever CEO, intending to ensure the preservation of expert knowledge in a world after academia, or where it has no longer become effective as a place of reproduction of various trades and knowledges: maybe you do want for your personnel to arrange domestic parnerships preferentially with those who share certain key competences which HR has approved for flagging as 'business-critical' in order to ensure the preservation and enhancement of those key competences. have Legal write up a report as to possible legal ostacles in various jurisdictions and exactly how big the bonus would have to be. maybe you can dress it up as part of the company benefit plan: a matchmaking service with both your love life and your work life in mind.

also, less dramatically: amongst marriages I've known personally, it's very common for both people to be of the same profession. It's probably good for business to marry someone in your general line of work anyway! it opens up strategic partnerships and facilitates sharing of resources. it's naively easy to imagine the causes of homo-professional marriage, whatever they be, getting a good old boost here and there.
Post Reply