Uczymy się polskiego!

[Plusquamperfekt]

Szanowne panie, szanowni panowie! (Ladies and gentlemen)

In this thread I would like to teach you some bits of Polish. In order to help you with the pronunciation, I will transcribe every sentence and word which I use, but I will not explain the orthography or the phonology, since you can find a very good and detailed description in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_phonology

Lesson 1

Code: Select all

to                this [tɔ]
to (jest)         this is [tɔ jɛst]
jest              (he/she/it) is [jɛst]
są                (they) are [sɔ̃]

co                what [t͡sɔ]
kto               who [ktɔ]
gdzie             where [gd͡ʑɛ]
Co to (jest)?     What is that? [t͡sɔ tɔ jɛst]
Kto to (jest)?    Who is that? [ktɔ tɔ jɛst]

pan               Mr. [pan]
pani              Mrs. ['pa.ɲi]

nie               not [ɲɛ]
to nie (jest)      this is not [tɔ ɲɛ jɛst]

tu(taj)           here ['tutaj]
tam               there [tam]

czy               [Y/N Question Marker] [t͡ʃɨ]
tak               yes [tak]
nie               no [ɲɛ]
nie wiem          I don't know ['ɲɛ vjɛm]

i                 and (combining "and", similar to "with") [i]
a                 and (comparing "and", similar to "but") [a]

pies              dog [pjɛs]
kot               cat [kɔt]
dom               house [dɔm]
ulica             street [u.'li.t͡sa]
hotel             hotel ['xɔ.tɛl]
szpital           hospital [ʃpi.tal]
szkoła            school ['ʃkɔ.wa]
uniwersytet       university [u.ɲi.vɛr.'sɨ.tɛt]
sklep             shop [sklɛp]

Dzień dobry!      Good morning!/Good day! (formal) [dʑɛɲ 'dɔbrɨ]
Dobry wieczór!    Good evening! (formal) [dobrɨ 'vjɛt͡ʃur]
Przepraszam!      Excuse me! / Sorry! [pʃɛ'praʃam]
Cześć!            Hello!/Bye! (informal) [t͡ʃɛɕt͡ɕ]
Dziękuję!         Thank you! [dʑɛŋ'kujɛ̃]

Some comments about the transcription:
(1) The phonemes /tʃ, ʃ, dʒ, ʒ/ are often analyzed as laminal retroflex consonants.
(2) The nasalization "ę" is very weak at the end of words and often lost in fast speech. In careful pronunciation final "ę" should remain nasal (milyamd disagrees, so this seems to be a little controversial)
(3) /ɨ/ is a bit fronted, but still clearly distinct from [ɪ]. Some phoneticians use /ɪ̈/ with two dots on it.
(4) According to Wikipedia /t, d, t_s, d_z, n, s, z/ are dental while /r, l/ are usually alveolar (milyamd says t_s, d_z, s, z are alveolar, too)
(5) "Nasal vowels do not feature uniform nasality over their duration. Phonetically, they may consist of an oral vowel followed by a nasal semivowel (so that są is pronounced [sɔw̃]" (from Wikipedia)

Text

Co to jest? - What is that?
To jest ulica. - This is a street.
Co to? To ulica. - What is that? This is a street.

Co tu jest? - What is here?
Tu jest dom. - Here is a house.

Kto to jest? - Who is this?
To jest pan Kowalski. - This is Mr. Kowalski.
A kto to jest? - And who is this?
To pani Kowalska - This is Mrs. Kowalska.
Tu jest pan Kowalski, a tam jest pani Kowalska. - Mr. Kowalski is here and Mrs. Kowalska is over there.

Czy to jest pan Kowalski? - Is this Mr. Kowaslki?
Nie, to nie jest pan Kowalski. To jest pan Nowak. - No, this is not Mr. Kowalski. This is Mr. Nowak.
Czy to jest uniwersytet? - Is this a university?
Tak, to jest uniwersytet. - Yes, this is a university.

Czy tu jest hotel? - Is this a hotel here?
Nie, tu nie jest hotel. Tu jest szpital. - No, here is no hotel. This here is a hospital.

Co to jest? - What is this?
To jest pies. - This is a dog.
Gdzie jest pies? - Where is the dog?
Nie wiem. - I don't know.

Grammar
- Polish has no articles
- The negation "nie" is always placed before the verb
- Question words are always placed at the beginning of the sentence.
- Y/N questions can be introduced with "czy" (optional)
- Polish word oder makes no distinction between statements and yes/no questions. The syntax stays the same.
- (jest) can be left out after "to" and sometimes after "tu"

Any questions?!!

[Click]

To jest pan Kowalski. - This is Mr. Kowalski.

Any questions?!!

Any exercises?

[Plusquamperfekt]

Any exercises?

Follow soon, at the moment I'm too occupied with other things ;)

[Ghoster]

(3) /ɨ/ is a bit fronted, but still clearly distinct from [ɪ]. Some phoneticians use /ɪ̈/ with two dots on it.

I'd just like to point out, that Polish /y/ phoneme is practically almost as mid as schwa. In fact, [ɨ] is kind of very hyper-correct realization of this phoneme, most of the time it's just [ɘ].

Well, actually Polish vowels aren't all that straight-same all the time, since there are differences between realizations of certain phonemes in between certain consonants; it's not really common knowledge, because there aren't really any linguists who thought about these little details, but still the vowels may be pronounced differently, for example "Dzień" 'Day' should be pronounced more like [ʥeɲ̟] than [dʑɛɲ] (by the way: I suggest you to use ligatures or bar-diacritic in this lesson, because there is phonemic difference between affricates and plosive-fricative clusters in Polish, for example "Czy" [ʧɘ] 'Question marker" and "Trzy" [tʃɘ] 'Three'). When you'll look at Russian phonology at Wikipedia, you can find a lot of information about how are the vowels pronounced in between the consonants, but it seems like no Polish linguist ever cared, so there are no organized rules written down by anyone.

są (they) are [sɔ̃]

Oh yeah, the nasal vowels in Polish. They may be pronounced completely different before some consonants, so you would either leave them in peace, or take apart how are they pronounced in all the positions. I am also sure that "Są" isn't pronounced as [sɔ̃] when standing alone, unless you speak some weird dialect, most likely it would be [so̞w̃] or [so̞ɰ̃], or even, for some speakers, as [sõ̞w̃] or [sõ̞ɰ̃].

(1) The phonemes /tʃ, ʃ, dʒ, ʒ/ are often analyzed as laminal retroflex consonants.

They are not retroflex by any meaning of this word and everyone who claims they are should be burned. Period.

Nie, tu nie jest hotel. Tu jest szpital. - No, here is no hotel. This here is a hospital.

Well, this is just plainly stupid.
"Nie, tu nie ma hotelu.*

- The negation "nie" is always placed before the verb

Bullshit.
"Nie tak należy to robić";
"Masz to robić nie tak, a tak".

[Plusquamperfekt]

Hey Ghoster,

thank you for your polite message. (The underscore is addressed to someone else who thinks it's necessary to be rude when critisizing someone)

I'd just like to point out, that Polish /y/ phoneme is practically almost as mid as schwa. In fact, [ɨ] is kind of very hyper-correct realization of this phoneme, most of the time it's just [ɘ].

I can agree to this and I don't know why many linguists keep on using /ɨ/ when it should be /ɘ/, maybe they use it for traditional reasons, but since I was a little too humble to rank my own opinion higher than the opinion of those people who are cited in the Wikipedia article, I simply used /ɨ/ too. Maybe this is exactly the reason why /ɨ/ does still appear in the Wikipedia article about Polish phonology... People just have too much respect to correct mistakes ;)

Well, actually Polish vowels aren't all that straight-same all the time, since there are differences between realizations of certain phonemes in between certain consonants; it's not really common knowledge, because there aren't really any linguists who thought about these little details, but still the vowels may be pronounced differently, for example "Dzień" 'Day' should be pronounced more like [ʥeɲ̟] than [dʑɛɲ]

I know that, but most of those varieties happen automatically due to assimilation processes... For example, I've always pronounced "dzień" like [ʥeɲ̟], even before I was aware of the fact that this was such a pronunciation rule. Of course you could claim that this could be also an effect of being exposed to many native speakers, but maybe not...

(by the way: I suggest you to use ligatures or bar-diacritic in this lesson, because there is phonemic difference between affricates and plosive-fricative clusters in Polish, for example "Czy" [ʧɘ] 'Question marker" and "Trzy" [tʃɘ] 'Three'). When you'll look at Russian phonology at Wikipedia, you can find a lot of information about how are the vowels pronounced in between the consonants, but it seems like no Polish linguist ever cared, so there are no organized rules written down by anyone.

Hmmm I had thought about that problem too and this is why I decided to use bars for affricates, for example [tʃɘ] for "trzy"; [t͡ʃɘ] for = "czy".

Oh yeah, the nasal vowels in Polish. They may be pronounced completely different before some consonants, so you would either leave them in peace, or take apart how are they pronounced in all the positions. I am also sure that "Są" isn't pronounced as [sɔ̃] when standing alone, unless you speak some weird dialect, most likely it would be [so̞w̃] or [so̞ɰ̃], or even, for some speakers, as [sõ̞w̃] or [sõ̞ɰ̃].

If you take a look at the other thread you will notice that the nasal vowels were already discussed. Of course I know that too (I know everything about Polish phonology ) and I have even mentioned that they are rather sequences of oral vowels + nasal consonants or semivowels, but I kept on using [ɔ̃] for [ɔw̃] to avoid that the transcription gets too complicated. Most adult learners won't get a native accent anyway and the difference between [ɔ̃] and [ɔw̃] is not that huge either.

Well, this is just plainly stupid.
"Nie, tu nie ma hotelu.*

Oops, that's really a big fail for someone who tries to teach Polish. When writing this sentence my Sprachgefühl was already telling me that something's wrong with that sentence, but I could not figure out what. I guess I would have noticed the mistake if someone else had written this sentence.

Bullshit.
"Nie tak należy to robić";
"Masz to robić nie tak, a tak".

OK, that was an over-generalization. Maybe I should replace the word "always" with the word "usually"

Well, what are we going to do with this thread? After so many shitstorms no one will use this thread for learning Polish anyway, even if I correct everything you mentioned. So instead of correcting it myself, I would like to suggest you to edit the lesson (if you have time) and when you're ready, I could ask an admin to delete the thread so that you can post the lesson with the new title "Polish lessons - proof-read by native speakers".

I don't think that I will do another Polish lesson ever again since the reactions in this forum couldn't be worse, but if I do, I will send the lesson first to a native speaker and let him/her check it before posting the lesson in public.

[pittmirg]

If you take a look at the other thread you will notice that the nasal vowels were already discussed. Of course I know that too (I know everything about Polish phonology ) and I have even mentioned that they are rather sequences of oral vowels + nasal consonants or semivowels, but I kept on using [ɔ̃] for [ɔw̃] to avoid that the transcription gets too complicated. Most adult learners won't get a native accent anyway and the difference between [ɔ̃] and [ɔw̃] is not that huge either.

IMO there's a danger that plain nasalized vowels without an offglide/accompanying nasal stop could be parsed as /ɛ ɔ/ by native speakers, especially if the nasalization isn't super strong. Something like [̥'ɕɔ̃dɔ̃] is really quite alien to the 'Common Polish' variety as spoken today.

People just have too much respect to correct mistakes ;)

I think this is a common problem in lingustics. The object of description is ever changing, and authoritative sources obviously can't remain up-to-date forever.

In older recordings (and also maybe from people from "Kresy") you can hear different phonetic values of "y", even something close to [ɨi].

Bullshit.
"Nie tak należy to robić";
"Masz to robić nie tak, a tak".

OK, that was an over-generalization. Maybe I should replace the word "always" with the word "usually"

Or just write that verbal negation is always expressed by a pre-verbal morpheme nie (which by the way exhibits features of a prefix despite its spelling).

Well, what are we going to do with this thread? After so many shitstorms no one will use this thread for learning Polish anyway, even if I correct everything you mentioned. So instead of correcting it myself, I would like to suggest you to edit the lesson (if you have time) and when you're ready, I could ask an admin to delete the thread so that you can post the lesson with the new title "Polish lessons - proof-read by native speakers".

I don't think that I will do another Polish lesson ever again since the reactions in this forum couldn't be worse, but if I do, I will send the lesson first to a native speaker and let him/her check it before posting the lesson in public.

You haven't seen the polish conlanger forum phonetic flame wars... IMO you were doing fairly good, especially for a non-native (though we didn't get to see much so far) and locally there's been demand for Polish lessons recently. I think a collaborative continuation is a nice idea.

[Ghoster]

People just have too much respect to correct mistakes ;)

It's definitely not "respect", it's just stupidity and lack of courage to correct what was once written; in fact, I highly doubt there are actually many (if at all) Polish linguists who are aware of these facts.

If you take a look at the other thread you will notice that the nasal vowels were already discussed. Of course I know that too (I know everything about Polish phonology ) and I have even mentioned that they are rather sequences of oral vowels + nasal consonants or semivowels, but I kept on using [ɔ̃] for [ɔw̃] to avoid that the transcription gets too complicated. Most adult learners won't get a native accent anyway and the difference between [ɔ̃] and [ɔw̃] is not that huge either.

But [ɔw̃] isn't the only way of pronunciation of "ą".
"Bądź" [bo̞ɲ̟ʥ]
"Gąsior" [goj̃ɕo̞r]
"Ląd" [lo̞ɰ̯̃nd]
And so on.

Well, what are we going to do with this thread? After so many shitstorms no one will use this thread for learning Polish anyway, even if I correct everything you mentioned. So instead of correcting it myself, I would like to suggest you to edit the lesson (if you have time) and when you're ready, I could ask an admin to delete the thread so that you can post the lesson with the new title "Polish lessons - proof-read by native speakers".

Pass, I have no time for regular lessons and besides I don't really feel like doing it anyways. I may check them if you'd send me it though.

IMO there's a danger that plain nasalized vowels without an offglide/accompanying nasal stop could be parsed as /ɛ ɔ/ by native speakers, especially if the nasalization isn't super strong. Something like [̥'ɕɔ̃dɔ̃] is really quite alien to the 'Common Polish' variety as spoken today.

I really had to separate phonemes to realize what word did you mean, so yeah, the pronunciation of Polish nasal vowels is really important.

I think a collaborative continuation is a nice idea.

This.

[Plusquamperfekt]

But [ɔw̃] isn't the only way of pronunciation of "ą".
"Bądź" [bo̞ɲ̟ʥ]
"Gąsior" [goj̃ɕo̞r]
"Ląd" [lo̞ɰ̯̃nd]
And so on.

If only people read more carefully ;)

If you take a look at the other thread you will notice that the nasal vowels were already discussed. Of course I know that too (I know everything about Polish phonology ) and I have even mentioned that they are rather sequences of oral vowels + nasal consonants or semivowels, but I kept on using [ɔ̃] for [ɔw̃] to avoid that the transcription gets too complicated. Most adult learners won't get a native accent anyway and the difference between [ɔ̃] and [ɔw̃] is not that huge either.

I think a collaborative continuation is a nice idea.

Zgadzam się z tobą, jednak czasem mam naprawdę wrażenie, iż Polacy wcale nie chcą się dzielić swoim językiem z obcokrajowcami. Wielu z nich jest nadzwyczaj dumnych z kompleksowości polskiego języka i dlatego chcą, aby uczniowie nauczyli się prawie wszystkiego już na początku, nawet rzeczy, które są zupełnie bezużyteczne pod względem najważniejszych potrzeb turystów w Polsce. Dlatego powinno się rzetelnie rozmyślać o rzeczywistych potrzebach tych ludzi, którzy znajdują się w tym forum. Moja własna intencja byla taka, że nie chciałem nauczyć użytkowników całej gramatyki polskiego języka, lecz tylko udowodnić, że mimo zawiłości i siedmiu przypadków wcale nie jest niemożliwe nauczyć się polskiego. Na końcu chciałbym powiedzieć, dlaczego napisałem odpowiedź po polsku. Wiem, że prawdopodobnie zrobiłem wiele błędów gramatycznych i że w tym forum to może być samobójstwo, ale mam nadzieję, że nareszcie mnie uwierzycie, że wprawdzie nie mówię perfekcyjnie po polsku, ale o wiele lepiej niż tylko "dzień dobry" i "do widzenia".

[Ghoster]

Zgadzam się z tobą, jednak czasem mam naprawdę wrażenie, iż Polacy wcale nie chcą się dzielić swoim językiem z obcokrajowcami. Wielu z nich jest nadzwyczaj dumnych z kompleksowości polskiego języka i dlatego chcą, aby uczniowie nauczyli się prawie wszystkiego już na początku, nawet rzeczy, które są zupełnie bezużyteczne pod względem najważniejszych potrzeb turystów w Polsce. Dlatego powinno się rzetelnie rozmyślać o rzeczywistych potrzebach tych ludzi, którzy znajdują się w tym forum. Moja własna intencja byla taka, że nie chciałem nauczyć użytkowników całej gramatyki polskiego języka, lecz tylko udowodnić, że mimo zawiłości i siedmiu przypadków wcale nie jest niemożliwe nauczyć się polskiego. Na końcu chciałbym powiedzieć, dlaczego napisałem odpowiedź po polsku. Wiem, że prawdopodobnie zrobiłem wiele błędów gramatycznych i że w tym forum to może być samobójstwo, ale mam nadzieję, że nareszcie mnie (mi) uwierzycie, że wprawdzie nie mówię perfekcyjnie po polsku, ale o wiele lepiej niż tylko "dzień dobry" i "do widzenia".

Jedyny faktyczny błąd zaznaczyłem na czerwono.
Nie mówię tego w imieniu jakiejś "grupy Polaków", lecz jako osoba prosperująca do bycia (niegdyś, być może, oby) lingwistą: tu nie chodzi o to, by zalać ucznia informacjami o tym, jak skomplikowany potrafi być język, tylko o to, by nie siać dezinformacji. Wymowę nosówek, jak i całą fonetykę bez wyjątków, winno się poznać już na samym początku, bo i taka jest kolejność; wpierw umieć wymówić język zanim się go zacznie wymawiać.

I'm not trying to be cocky and rude, just trying to set things right; nobody's assuming you have to stop making these lessons, because you're not a native speaker or whatever.

[Ahzoh]

I am one who wants to learn Polski Język but I am rather concerned that there is such a large discrepancy between phones

[kanejam]

thank you for your polite message. [...] I don't think that I will do another Polish lesson ever again since the reactions in this forum couldn't be worse, but if I do, I will send the lesson first to a native speaker and let him/her check it before posting the lesson in public.

I actually was reading these lessons. Polish seems like a really neat language even if I'm not a fan of the orthography. And it's arguable that the reactions couldn't be worse although they definitely could have been better. Anyway, don't be discouraged!

And with regards to the whole phonetics, it is definitely better to go with a general, phoneme based as you were doing. Maybe though ą should be transcribed as [ɔw̃] if it would actually cause any problems.

[pittmirg]

Nie mówię tego w imieniu jakiejś "grupy Polaków", lecz jako osoba prosperująca do bycia (niegdyś, być może, oby) lingwistą:

Chciałeś oczywiście napisać aspirująca.

Zgadzam się z tobą, jednak czasem mam naprawdę wrażenie, iż Polacy wcale nie chcą się dzielić swoim językiem z obcokrajowcami. Wielu z nich jest nadzwyczaj dumnych z kompleksowości polskiego języka i dlatego chcą, aby uczniowie nauczyli się prawie wszystkiego już na początku, nawet rzeczy, które są zupełnie bezużyteczne pod względem najważniejszych potrzeb turystów w Polsce.

Mamy nieco niezdrowe podejście do swojego języka, co tłumaczyć trzeba historycznymi zaszłościami, parweniuszostwem i podejściem do tematu w szkolnictwie.

And with regards to the whole phonetics, it is definitely better to go with a general, phoneme based as you were doing. Maybe though ą should be transcribed as [ɔw̃] if it would actually cause any problems.

For many or most speakers, I'd say the existence of separate phonemes exactly corresponding to the orthographic ogoneks isn't particularly well-founded. The fact that they are—even increasingly—treated as sequences on the phonemic level is illustrated by the substandard-as-yet alternations like włączyć : włączać [ˈvwants̠͡at͡ɕ] (standard: [ˈvwɔnts̠͡at͡ɕ]), zdążyć : zdążać [ˈzdaɰ̃z̠at͡ɕ] (standard: [ˈzdɔɰ̃z̠at͡ɕ]), just like zarobić : zarabiać; this mirrors the general o : a alternation and shows that for these people 'nasal vowels' are underlyingly sequences of a vowel + a consonant. The phenomenon is strongly frowned upon by prescriptivists but widespread.