Polish Griping

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Ear of the Sphinx
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Polish Griping

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

[sɔ̃]
Hahaha.

Ok, sorry, I know.



Ahahahahahahahahahahah… *puts his hand over his mouth*

No, seriously, it's [oũ]. Or [ɔm], nobody would care.
(2) The nasalization "ę" is very weak at the end of words and often lost in fast speech. In careful pronunciation final "ę" should remain nasal (if you do not want to sound like an uneducated villager).
Well, it shouldn't, unless you want to sound like having runny nose.

Neither should you pronounce it [ɛɰ̃] (if you do not want to sound like an uneducated villager trying to sound like an educated villager).
uniwersytet university [u.ɲi.'vɛr.sɨ.tɛt]
[u.ɲi.vɛr.ˈsɨ.tɛt], unless it's where you are a Polish philology lecturer.
(4) Usually /t, d, t_s, d_z, n, s, z/ are dental. /r, l/ are usually alveolar
I doubt that /t͡s d͡z s z/ are dental at all.
Przepraszam! Excuse me! [pʃɛ'praʃam]
It also means "Sorry".

Also, you missed "Proszę" [ˈprɔ.ʃɛ] = "Please" / "Here you are".
- (jest) can be left out after "to" and sometimes after "tu"
And also it is often replaced by "to" before nouns. And that way is actually easier, because you don't need to use Instrumental, cf.
· "Polska jest mała" = "Poland is small"
· "Polska jest krajem" = "Poland is a country"
· "Polska to kraj" = "Poland is a country"

("kraj" = "country")
("krajem" = "country.INS")
Plusquamperfekt
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

Milyamd wrote: No, seriously, it's [oũ]. Or [ɔm], nobody would care.
You're forgetting one thing - I did not create this thread for Polish native speakers, but for people who have never had any exposure to Polish and I really doubt that most non-Polish people would notice the difference between [ɔ̃] and [oũ] anyway. So for the beginning it should be enough if they know that "ą" has something to do with nasalization, the details can be explained later.

Well, it shouldn't, unless you want to sound like having runny nose.
In this case I did not rely on Wikipedia, but on the pronunciation by several Polish native speakers I have talked to in person. It could be that they pronounced final "ę" in anasal way just because they knew that they were talking to a non-native speaker (we all know that we tend to speak differently when we are talking to strangers), but that is just what I noticed. I rarely have the occasion to listen to Poles when no one with another native language is listening, but when they are talking to me, they obviously pronounce things very carefully.
[u.ɲi.vɛr.ˈsɨ.tɛt], unless it's where you are a Polish philology lecturer.
To be honest, that would have been my second guess, I wasn't sure about this one.
I doubt that /t͡s d͡z s z/ are dental at all.
That's just what I read in Wikipediia. I don't hear the difference anyway since dental consonants are not distinguished from alveolar consonants in my native language anyway. So if you pronounced a dental [t] and an alveolar [t], I couldn't tell you which one is which, for me they would sound the same.
It also means "Sorry".
I know that but it was not relevant yet in this lesson.
(jest) can be left out after "to" and sometimes after "tu"
And also it is often replaced by "to" before nouns. And that way is actually easier, because you don't need to use Instrumental, cf.
· "Polska jest mała" = "Poland is small"
· "Polska jest krajem" = "Poland is a country"
· "Polska to kraj" = "Poland is a country"
It's really unfair that you are insinuating that I made a mistake even though I have not even mentioned the instrumental case. Can you imagine that I might have left some topics for the next lesson on purpose? Or that explaining the difference between "Polska to kraj" and "Polska jest krajem" could have been a little too much for the beginning? Polish does indeed have a very complex grammar, but I thought that it would be best to start with the easy and not with the confusing stuff. Not mentioning something does not automatically mean that someone doesn't know something, sometimes people can have certain intentions which you cannot think of.
Ahahahahahahahahahahah… *puts his hand over his mouth*
Shame on you, really. If it really matters to you that much that threads about Polish are 100% correct, then it's you who should have created this thread and not me. I tried the best I can and I doubt that you will find anything which is not correct at all. And even if I had made a mistake, you should simply inform me without any flaming and be grateful that someone from another country tries to explain your language, since no one else has had the idea to do so. This way of reacting is simply primitive, offensive and extremely arrogant.
I am expecting an apology from you.

Edit:
I did not see that you already had created a thread for Polish, but this doesn't change my opinion that your response is absolutely inappropriate.
Last edited by Plusquamperfekt on 27 Nov 2013 03:16, edited 1 time in total.
Fanael
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Fanael »

Plusquamperfekt wrote:If it really matters to you that much that threads about Polish are 100% correct, then it's you who should have created this thread and not me.
As a matter of fact, he did.
Plusquamperfekt
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

Fanael wrote:
Plusquamperfekt wrote:If it really matters to you that much that threads about Polish are 100% correct, then it's you who should have created this thread and not me.
As a matter of fact, he did.
Well if you're asking me, the number of only 12 postings indicates that obviously his/her attempt to teach Polish was not too successful. Probably too much grammar in the first lessons, I assume.

Edit:
BTW milyamd, I was corrected several times by Polish native speakers for pronouncing final "ę" as "e". Oh and by the way, thanks for destroying this thread.
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by thetha »

Plusquamperfekt wrote: Shame on you, really. If it really matters to you that much that threads about Polish are 100% correct, then it's you who should have created this thread and not me.
Milyamd is being pretty douchey about it, but he's right. It's perfectly reasonable to expect 100% correctness in this context. This *is* a subforum for teaching, and if you do not know the language well enough to teach it, then it's not quite your place to making threads here, or you should at least put a disclaimer up or something. For me it was certainly kind of worrying to find out that you aren't a quite experienced speaker of Polish--why should I, or any other learners, have our learning impeded because you were a bit overeager with trying to teach? Don't you think that's a bit unfair to your audience?
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

Teddy wrote: Milyamd is being pretty douchey about it, but he's right. It's perfectly reasonable to expect 100% correctness in this context. This *is* a subforum for teaching, and if you do not know the language well enough to teach it, then it's not quite your place to making threads here, or you should at least put a disclaimer up or something. For me it was certainly kind of worrying to find out that you aren't a quite experienced speaker of Polish--why should I, or any other learners, have our learning impeded because you were a bit overeager with trying to teach? Don't you think that's a bit unfair to your audience?
NO HE'S NOT RIGHT, because this lesson is 100% correct.

The reason why Milyamd critisized me is that he wants me to explain everything like a scientist and everything at once. However, what he does not understand is that this was not supposed to be a complete grammar, but instead an introductory lesson for beginners. Everything that he claimed to be incorrect is not incorrect at all, some things are a little imprecise, but there are didactic reasons for not explaining every little detail.
Milyadm accused me of not mentioning those things because of not knowing them.

Look at his silly and ridiculous arguments and my responses, there is not even one clear mistake. He's just throwing shit at me for no reason.

And by the way: I said I am not a native speakers, that's true, but I think my skills are high enough for teaching the basics. I have at least a B2 in Polish, so that should be more than enough for teaching everything below A1.
And being an expert on a language doesn't mean automatically that you are a good teacher, too. Look at Milyamd's lessons, he tried to explain the whole declension in lesson 2, no surprise that there wasn't a third lesson.

Just to give you an example of what Milyadm "corrected": I transliterated "są" as [sɔ̃] even though I am very aware of the fact that polish nasal vowels are asynchronous and that [sɔw̃] is the correct pronunciation. So why did I use [sɔ̃] instead? Maybe because I had mentioned before that nasals consist of an oral vowel + a nasal semivowel so that I assumed that people would know that [ɔ̃] is not [ɔ̃] but [ɔw̃]. And let's be honest, the difference is so tiny that it's only relevant for people who want to have a native accent, but not for beginners who don't know anything about Polish.

However, I can promise you that I won't create a second lesson, it seems Milyamd has successfully fucked up my reputation here. I've come to this forum because I thought that no forum could be even worse than the ZBB, but I was wrong. In Zompist's forum people tend to be very rude too, but at least they don't make false accusations.
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Ear of the Sphinx
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

Plusquamperfekt wrote:
I doubt that /t͡s d͡z s z/ are dental at all.
That's just what I read in Wikipediia. I don't hear the difference anyway since dental consonants are not distinguished from alveolar consonants in my native language anyway. So if you pronounced a dental [t] and an alveolar [t], I couldn't tell you which one is which, for me they would sound the same.
Well, with affricates and fricatives the difference is more audible.
It also means "Sorry".
I know that but it was not relevant yet in this lesson.
(jest) can be left out after "to" and sometimes after "tu"
And also it is often replaced by "to" before nouns. And that way is actually easier, because you don't need to use Instrumental, cf.
· "Polska jest mała" = "Poland is small"
· "Polska jest krajem" = "Poland is a country"
· "Polska to kraj" = "Poland is a country"
It's really unfair that you are insinuating that I made a mistake even though I have not even mentioned the instrumental case. Can you imagine that I might have left some topics for the next lesson on purpose? Or that explaining the difference between "Polska to kraj" and "Polska jest krajem" could have been a little too much for the beginning? Polish does indeed have a very complex grammar, but I thought that it would be best to start with the easy and not with the confusing stuff. Not mentioning something does not automatically mean that someone doesn't know something, sometimes people can have certain intentions which you cannot think of.
I did nowhere said you are wrong at this.
Ahahahahahahahahahahah… *puts his hand over his mouth*
Shame on you, really. If it really matters to you that much that threads about Polish are 100% correct, then it's you who should have created this thread and not me. I tried the best I can and I doubt that you will find anything which is not correct at all. And even if I had made a mistake, you should simply inform me without any flaming and be grateful that someone from another country tries to explain your language, since no one else has had the idea to do so. This way of reacting is simply primitive, offensive and extremely arrogant.
I am expecting an apology from you.
Sorry, sorry, sorry, I could not resist.

(…ahahahahahaha…)

--

Ok, mods, you can ban me if you wish.
Plusquamperfekt
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

Well, with affricates and fricatives the difference is more audible.
Then you should have said that. If you are such an expert, you should know that especially in phonological topics there is almost never a concensus. So if you do not share my opinion, it would have been enough to say "Sorry, but I perceive them as alveolar sounds.".
I did nowhere said you are wrong at this.
You implied it.
Sorry, sorry, sorry, I could not resist.

(…ahahahahahaha…)

--

Ok, mods, you can ban me if you wish.
How old are you? 12? What kind of reaction did you expect? That I appreciate rude comments?

No really, read your initial posting: You debunked my lesson as if I had written complete bullshit, but in fact there is not one single thing which was wrong without a doubt. You've ruined this thread for no reason.
Last edited by Plusquamperfekt on 27 Nov 2013 18:38, edited 2 times in total.
thetha
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by thetha »

I can see what your idea is with the nasal vowels but I just don't agree. Isn't the goal of a beginner to eventually be an advanced learner? If I was learning Spanish instead, I would pay mind to not pronouncing plosives with aspiration even though as an English speaker they don't sound a whole lot different to me. Second, how am I, a humble beginner with no knowledge of Polish beyond what you give me, supposed to know that you transcribed the word imprecisely on purpose? For all I know that could be the one exception. I personally would not appreciate a teacher of any subject trying to simplify things for me so much that valuable distinctions are lost.
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Re: Uczymy się polskiego!

Post by Plusquamperfekt »

Teddy wrote:I can see what your idea is with the nasal vowels but I just don't agree. Isn't the goal of a beginner to eventually be an advanced learner? If I was learning Spanish instead, I would pay mind to not pronouncing plosives with aspiration even though as an English speaker they don't sound a whole lot different to me. Second, how am I, a humble beginner with no knowledge of Polish beyond what you give me, supposed to know that you transcribed the word imprecisely on purpose? For all I know that could be the one exception. I personally would not appreciate a teacher of any subject trying to simplify things for me so much that valuable distinctions are lost.
Yes, but I wanted this thread to be about vocabulary and basic morphology and I pointed out explicitely that people who want to study every single detail of the phonology should read the article on Wikipedia or use other sources. I think there should be no opportunities left for misunderstandings.
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