Ramblings of a 中文 Learner

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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

Lao Kou wrote:This is the first time I've been able to see the image. :roll: Wow, I must say I'm duly impressed!
Really?!?

That kinda surprises me a lot.

I've slowed down a little in this thread because I haven't had as much time at work as I would like to practice and make fun nonsensical sentences where I play with features I don't fully understand. I will prolly post something (looks at watch) late today or early tomorrow when I am feeling more "Chinese-y."

Again, thanks folks for popping in to correct me, I really appreciate it!
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:This is the first time I've been able to see the image. :roll: Wow, I must say I'm duly impressed!
That kinda surprises me a lot.
If you're surprised I haven't seen the image 'til now -- really, my laptop connection has been dicey since the Chinese New Year (hopefully to be fixed next week), but I was at my office desktop this afternoon and was able to take a peek. If you're surprised that I'm impressed -- really, I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting, but it wasn't this nice. If you're starting out this well, I imagine your handwriting will improve rather quickly as you get more comfortable and accustomed through practice. Soldier on (and in your own time, of course)! [:)]
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:If you're surprised that I'm impressed -- really, I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting, but it wasn't this nice. If you're starting out this well, I imagine your handwriting will improve rather quickly as you get more comfortable and accustomed through practice.
It was the compliment that surprised me. [:)] I had no real worries about the time in between the reply and my post of the written sample. After all, this is just me "meandering" and it's not like I have a monopoly on your time or anything. [:P]
Soldier on (and in your own time, of course)! [:)]
I plan to!

為甚麼他入在門?
Why did he enter (in) the door/gate?

I wasn't sure if a preposition was needed here, and since I only know 在 I threw it in. As for the rest of the sentence, I'm not too confident in my placement of "why" either... Questions in Mandarin confuse me.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote: 為甚麼他入在門?
Why did he enter (in) the door/gate?

I wasn't sure if a preposition was needed here, and since I only know 在 I threw it in.
Bag it. Maybe consider "入" transitive here? And/or "入門" is often treated as a unit. So:

為甚麼他入門?

Here, I'd add a "了" for past tense, since presumably once you've gone through a door, it's over. So:

為甚麼他入門了?
As for the rest of the sentence, I'm not too confident in my placement of "why" either...
It's cool. Me, I often prefer to place words like "why", "although", and "if" in Wackernagel position, just because it sounds a little nicer, but it's not required. There may be a pragmatic nuance (focus, emphasis) that I'm ill-equipped to explain (I'd be free-forming/pulling it out of an orifice). So:

他為甚麼入門了? or 為甚麼他入門了?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:他為甚麼入門了?
I really like the feeling of that. So is there any kinda rule on where 為甚麼 goes?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:他為甚麼入門了?
I really like the feeling of that. So is there any kinda rule on where 為甚麼 goes?
I consulted my Li & Thompson and found this. They're discussing first 怎麼 (zenme) (how, why) and later 為甚麼:

"'How' and 'why' are both adverbial notions, but 'how' is a manner adverbial notion, pertaining to the manner in which the action of the verb is carried out, while 'why' is a sentential adverbial notion, requesting the respondent to provide a semantic frame for the entire sentence. Since sentential adverbs may occur in either sentence-initial position or in the 'regular' preverbal adverbial position, but manner adverbs can only occur before the verb, zenme unambiguously means 'why' when it occurs in the sentence-initial position, ..., but it can mean either 'how' or 'why' ..." (when it occurs before the verb - 彄)

"'Weishenme' is another sentence adverb question word. It means 'why', literally wei 'for' plus shenme 'what'.... as expected, it too can occur in either of the two positions where sentence adverbs can appear."

Got it? [O.o] Since putting 為甚麼 up front really asks "the respondent to provide a semantic frame for the entire sentence", to my ear, it sounds a little stronger, so I seldom use it. Wackernagel just sounds to me a little more genteel, a little higher brow, nicer, and as you put it, "I really like the feeling of that." [:)]
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Thanks for that!

Also let me say that the characters in 為甚麼 are officially my favorite so far... though technically I don't know 為 quite yet. 怎 seems okay too.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:Also let me say that the characters in 為甚麼 are officially my favorite so far... though technically I don't know 為 quite yet.
Traditional 為 is a lot of fun to write in ways simplified 为 will never be. [>:)]
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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一十萬零一百零一

Does this mean what I think it does? I consulted a "translator" to spit out numbers using traditional non-Arabic numerals and it gave me that for 100,101. And while I do prefer 零 to 〇 (at least visually), I don't really get how it is being used there. I am really only comfortable forming numbers up to 99.
Lao Kou wrote:Traditional 為 is a lot of fun to write in ways simplified 为 will never be. [>:)]
So very true. Of course, I would have expected the simplified version to include a horizontal line for the "four dots fire" part of 為 as 马 does for 馬.

And now for a much less 奇 sentence than I am used to (I hope):

她為甚麼在我的椅子立?
Why is she standing in my chair?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:一十萬零一百零一
Does this mean what I think it does? I consulted a "translator" to spit out numbers using traditional non-Arabic numerals and it gave me that for 100,101. And while I do prefer 零 to 〇 (at least visually), I don't really get how it is being used there.
It means what you think it does. (The first "一" is optional here.) The 零's are placeholders. In English you can say "one hundred one" and get 101 as an image. In Chinese, saying "一百一" gets you 110. To indicate that you leaped one, you need the zero. 一百零一 (one hundred, zero tens, and one). Your example also skips the thousand's place so another zero. One oral zero is enough to express unspoken powers of 10 in between, so 3005 is 三千零五 (without 零: 3500). Riffing off your example, 十万零一 for 100,001. Etc.
Lao Kou wrote:Traditional 為 is a lot of fun to write in ways simplified 为 will never be. [>:)]
So very true. Of course, I would have expected the simplified version to include a horizontal line for the "four dots fire" part of 為 as 马 does for 馬.
I do it that way when writing allegro, traditional 為 with a straight or wavy line for the dots.
And now for a much less 奇 sentence than I am used to (I hope):

她為甚麼在我的椅子立?
Why is she standing in my chair?
I'm gonna bump 立 up front a little and add an "on", so:

她為甚麼在我的椅子?

Unadorned 立 in modern Chinese is used for things. "Stand" for people uses "立" as its radical and the prophesying "占" we had earlier as its phonetic for "站" (zhàn), so:

她為甚麼在我的椅子上?

And finally, you could optionally knock out "的" depending on how much proprietorship you feel toward the chair (think Archie Bunker: "Edit' (or Meathead), ... you're sittin' in my chair!"), so:

她為甚麼站在我椅子上?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:One oral zero is enough to express unspoken powers of 10 in between, so 3005 is 三千零五 (without 零: 3500). Riffing off your example, 十万零一 for 100,001. Etc.
Ahhhh, I would have expected 3,500 to have to be 三千五百. It's interesting that place value is still used even though they have characters that represent powers of ten, and a Roman Numeral like system of addition and multiplication is used. Further, it is interesting that one 零 can mean multiple missed place values.

Do folks ever do something like this: 一零零一零一 or 一〇〇一〇一 for 100,101? Actually using the usual 1-9 in a real place value system without any of the multiplying characters?
I do it that way when writing allegro, traditional 為 with a straight or wavy line for the dots.
Well, I suppose now that you mention it, I did see my professor in college write 馬 normally but with a squiggle for the dots... he often also had 口, when part of another character, end up looking more like... well, an oddly proportioned capital letter "R" almost. The second stroke and the final stroke on the bottom kinda ended up connected. I suppose that is a similar thing as what you are talking about?
Some sort of adjective-izing usage here? According to Google, it also means weird, or strange.
她為甚麼站在我椅子上?
Hmmm. So we use 站 (zhan4 right?) for people who are standing... and 上 as a sort of specifier for the manner expressed in the preposition 在?

Why is it in this case that the verb is moved up in the sentence, when earlier you talked of the manner, time, etc. going before the verb? And for the usage of 的, I was thinking in terms similar to an assigned seat in a classroom. It's not "my" chair, but it is indeed the seat I am supposed to be in.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:Do folks ever do something like this: 一零零一零一 or 一〇〇一〇一 for 100,101? Actually using the usual 1-9 in a real place value system without any of the multiplying characters?
Years? 二零一四年 is possible, though you'd most likely use Arabic numerals "2014年". If you're talking about actually writing "one hundred thousand one hundred one" as 一零零一零一, I'm going to say "no".
I do it that way when writing allegro, traditional 為 with a straight or wavy line for the dots.
I did see my professor in college write 馬 normally but with a squiggle for the dots... he often also had 口, when part of another character, end up looking more like... well, an oddly proportioned capital letter "R" almost. The second stroke and the final stroke on the bottom kinda ended up connected. I suppose that is a similar thing as what you are talking about?
Yep. My allegro 口 looks like a funky "12" or what you're describing as an "R". Some folks, especially girls, even write the radical 口 as a circle. I'm rarely that twee.
Some sort of adjective-izing usage here? According to Google, it also means weird, or strange.
"Strange" is rendered "奇怪" in modern Chinese. I don't think 奇 can't float in space by itself, at least as an adjective. If you wanted to get all literary and stuff, I suppose you might try something like, say, "森林之奇" for "The Mysteriousness of the Forest" or "The Forest's Mysteries", but that's rather marked as contemporary usage goes.
她為甚麼站在我椅子上?
Hmmm. So we use 站 (zhan4 right?) for people who are standing... and 上 as a sort of specifier for the manner expressed in the preposition 在?
To make life easy, "在...上" can be thought of as a circumpositional "on". If you want to analyze it the way you're doing, then you might do well to think of 在 as a (co)verb (= "be at") instead of a preposition and 上 as a noun (= be at my chair's top(surface)).
Why is it in this case that the verb is moved up in the sentence, when earlier you talked of the manner, time, etc. going before the verb?
You could leave it where you had it, but if you do (and I was trying to keep it simple [}:D] ), I think you need an aspect marker 着 to make the state clearer (the sentence below feels, to me, "hanging" without it):

她為甚麼在我椅子上站?

This one also slightly emphasizes why is she standing on it as opposed to sitting or fruging on it. My version above pulls it a little more in the direction of why is she standing on my chair as opposed to her own or someone else's or on my chair as opposed to the floor or a step ladder. Yeah, sure, that's it. Yep, yep. [;)]
And for the usage of 的, I was thinking in terms similar to an assigned seat in a classroom. It's not "my" chair, but it is indeed the seat I am supposed to be in.
Well, it's assigned and territorial imperative and all that, you may well feel it's "yours" even with the school crest on it. It really is optional here and is a game of inches. I try to be sparing with my 的's so that I don't end up with 的-heavy sentences, which isn't wrong, but not exactly screaming elegance either. [;)]
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:Years? 二零一四年 is possible, though you'd most likely use Arabic numerals "2014年". If you're talking about actually writing "one hundred thousand one hundred one" as 一零零一零一, I'm going to say "no".
I highly doubted it, but thought I'd ask nonetheless. The reason I am hung up on 100,101 is that it is binary for 37, and I have contemplated getting it as a tattoo... but I wanted to assure that it was correct in the way that I had seen it rendered. I thought it would be a nifty spin from the overly cliched "Chinese tattoo" since not only is it NOT a poorly translated and badly understood platitude or cliche phrase, but instead a number that is further obfuscated by not even being what it looks like once you take it into Arabic numbers.
[...] twee.
Such a fun word! More on point, I think I will focus on trying to write things correctly WAY before I start to write them quickly. [:)] I feel like I have a lot of things pretty well down, but I have a lot of difficulty where 3 or more elements are assembled vertically, hell, even 矮 gives me trouble sometimes. But the character 賣? Forget about it. I can't get that crap looking right no matter what. Every time it ends up way too freaking tall.
"奇怪"
I really wish my book would just say that. While it gives a lot of phrases and things, it won't use any character in them that we haven't learned yet. So, I won't see 怪 for awhile. What's strange, is that I have learnt all the elements of it already, looks like "side-heart" "again" and "earth".
"森林之奇"
Hmmm, so 森林 is forest? Does that mean that 林 by itself also doesn't happen much? Or was this merely a literary thing? Because I learned 林 just a day or two ago, and it was stated as "forest or a family name."
To make life easy, "在...上" can be thought of as a circumpositional "on". If you want to analyze it the way you're doing, then you might do well to think of 在 as a (co)verb (= "be at") instead of a preposition and 上 as a noun (= be at my chair's top(surface)).
Both ways make a lot of sense to me.
她為甚麼在我椅子上站?
I think I will have to wait a bit to get into using other aspect markers until I can reliably form sentences at all... if that makes any sense? While 了 has a plenitude of uses, I know it already at least in writing.
Well, it's assigned and territorial imperative and all that, you may well feel it's "yours" even with the school crest on it. It really is optional here and is a game of inches. I try to be sparing with my 的's so that I don't end up with 的-heavy sentences, which isn't wrong, but not exactly screaming elegance either. [;)]
Awwww... but I like 的 oh so much. (As you might be able to tell.)
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:I feel like I have a lot of things pretty well down, but I have a lot of difficulty where 3 or more elements are assembled vertically, hell, even 矮 gives me trouble sometimes. But the character 賣? Forget about it. I can't get that crap looking right no matter what. Every time it ends up way too freaking tall.
My pet peeve character is 事. No one writes it nice. Hate it, hate it, hate it. [}:(]
Hmmm, so 森林 is forest? Does that mean that 林 by itself also doesn't happen much? Or was this merely a literary thing? Because I learned 林 just a day or two ago, and it was stated as "forest or a family name."
It's a common enough surname (remember "Linsanity"?). I don't think "在林(裡)" is readily understandable (at the aural level). If you want to say something like, "I went for a walk in the forest/woods.", I think you need to modify it somehow, like 樹林. "rain forest" -- 雨林. "bamboo grove" -- 竹林. 森林 is a whole lotta trees, obviously, so it's larger in scale as forests go.
她為甚麼在我椅子上站?
I think I will have to wait a bit to get into using other aspect markers until I can reliably form sentences at all... if that makes any sense?
Which is why I didn't want to go there. But noooOOOooo. Yooooouuuu had to ask a question. [;)]
I try to be sparing with my 的's so that I don't end up with 的-heavy sentences, which isn't wrong, but not exactly screaming elegance either. [;)]
Awwww... but I like 的 oh so much. (As you might be able to tell.)
Well then, you'll love stuff like, "我紅色椅子上面筆記本". Me, I'd do a little pruning.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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誰的馬的汗這是?
Whose horse sweat is this?

I know it isn't that kinda club, but I can't resist:
我給合你的書殳?
May I join your book 'club'?
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:誰的馬的汗這是?
Whose horse sweat is this?
這是誰的馬汗?

No wh- fronting (unless the wh- word is the subject or an "adverbial notion"). Question units go where the answers would be. Since the answer is, "This is Bob's horse sweat.", the question is, "This is whose horse sweat?"
I know it isn't that kinda club, but I can't resist:
我給合你的書殳?
May I join your book 'club'?
I'm guessing you've read "結合" as "給合"? Anyway, not the "joining" you want. How about:

我加入你的書殳,好嗎?

with the book "club" issues unresolved. 殳書 is a word, however.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:這是誰的馬汗?

No wh- fronting (unless the wh- word is the subject or an "adverbial notion"). Question units go where the answers would be. Since the answer is, "This is Bob's horse sweat.", the question is, "This is whose horse sweat?"
Dang it! I keep over thinking it. The way you have it was actually the way I started to do it first. (But of course, I throw around like a hundred 的s per sentence.)
I'm guessing you've read "結合" as "給合"?
No, 給 was shown as gei3 with the meaning of "to allow" as a secondary one. 合 was shown as "to join, come together." Probably, as in so many other cases, their individual meanings are not so specific, and/or we are dealing with older definitions.
我加入你的書殳,好嗎?

with the book "club" issues unresolved. 殳書 is a word, however.
加入 is join as in "to gain membership"? I guess that makes 好嗎 as a way to ask permission? Sort of "if you please"?

What's 殳書? Google gives me the incredibly unhelpful "shu book."
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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XXXVII wrote:加入 is join as in "to gain membership"?
Yes, "join/take part/participate in" (clubs, activities, etc.)
I guess that makes 好嗎 as a way to ask permission? Sort of "if you please"?
It's like "okay?". You want the listener to acquiesce -- permission is certainly an option.
What's 殳書? Google gives me the incredibly unhelpful "shu book."
"A style of handwriting in the Chin (Qin - 彄) Dynasty (used for inscriptions on weapons)"
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Lao Kou wrote:"A style of handwriting in the Chin (Qin - 彄) Dynasty (used for inscriptions on weapons)"
Ahhh, that makes sense, I saw 殳 as "club," but I see another option is also "lance." And 書 seems to be used as part of the name of calligraphic styles... as in cao3shu1 (草書).

Speaking of 草書, do you know of any free fonts that reproduce the style of that writing? I know that it is considered sort of an art form in itself, so a font would necessarily lose a good deal of that, but I'd like to be able to mess around with it. All the websites I have found look to be laden with... issues and I'd prefer not to download (anything) from any of them.
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Re: Meanderings of a 中文 Learner

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Tom: 我吉他是哪里?
Wendy: 它不是那?
T: 不, 那是我夫人!
W: 哦.
T: 謝謝.
W: 不謝, 好嗎?
T: 任何

Tom: Where is my guitar?
Wendy: Is it not that?
T: No, that's my wife!
W: Oh.
T: Thanks.
W: No problem, right?
T: Whatever.
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