Quick Questions on English

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clawgrip
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Re: Quick Questions on Eglish

Post by clawgrip »

Lambuzhao wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:'I graced Kahichali with a new phoneme'.
I feel like that sentence needs a top hat and a monocle it's so fancy.
Completely sidestepping the point of why I brought this sentence out of nothingness.

[->] From a native speaker's point of view, Is it correct English, or incorrect English?

Spoiler:
BTW, I wear glasses mostly now. I wouldn't mind trying a monocle on for size.
I do not, as a rule, wear hats. I find them utterly too hattish.
It's hard for me to tell who is a native speaker and who is not sometimes, because so many people here write English so well. I honestly have no idea if you are a native speaker or not now.

My take on that particular sentence is that it's grammatically correct, but that it has conflicting connotations. "Grace A with B" directly implies that B is typically considered a good and/or desirable thing. A phoneme is neutral, not really carrying any particular positive connotation, so it conflicts with "grace with", making the sentence overall somewhat awkward.

Pragmatics! The hardest part of language design.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Lambuzhao »

...Unless you are a grade-school teacher and young Master Fragglewump due for her
3:00 detention finally arrives at 3:30, to which the teacher says, slathered in irony:

"Ah, Mr. Fragglewump! So you have finally decided to grace us with your presence?"

In this situation, is the presence 'desirable'?! I'll leave that one up to you & pragmatics.
[;)]
Spoiler:
PS: been a native speaker for 39 very odd years, and maybe 4 rather even years.
Last edited by Lambuzhao on 16 Aug 2014 01:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Lambuzhao »

Looking at it from another angle, what conlanger wouldn't consider adding a new phoneme (neutral per se) as something positive or desirable, especially if they were really sweating and losing sleep over less-than-complete and or less-than-perfect phonology???

'Cuz one thing I have learned by my own experience, and reading and learning from others, is that we conlangers, we're the sort to painstakingly sweat the small stuff (when we're not busy arsing it off :roll: ).
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by clawgrip »

Lambuzhao wrote:...Unless you are a grade-school teacher and young Master Fragglewump due for her
3:00 detention finally arrives at 3:30, to which the teacher says, slathered in irony:

"Ah, Mr. Fragglewump! So you have finally decided to grace us with your presence?"

In this situation, is the presence 'desirable'?! I'll leave that one up to you & pragmatics.
[;)]
Spoiler:
PS: been a native speaker for 39 very odd years, and maybe 4 rather even years.
I suspected someone would mention ironic usage. Ironic usage of course the opposite of the words' typical meaning, so while a literal interpretation of the words would suggest the teacher was happy to see the student, the reality of the situation is otherwise.
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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Wash = Warsh
Dragged = Drug
Height = heighth
Winter = Winner

What am I dealing with here?
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
[B)] Image Image :deu:
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by clawgrip »

Lambuzhao wrote:Looking at it from another angle, what conlanger wouldn't consider adding a new phoneme (neutral per se) as something positive or desirable, especially if they were really sweating and losing sleep over less-than-complete and or less-than-perfect phonology???

'Cuz one thing I have learned by my own experience, and reading and learning from others, is that we conlangers, we're the sort to painstakingly sweat the small stuff (when we're not busy arsing it off :roll: ).
Not all phonemes are positive...try telling someone you put /ɱ/ in your conlang.

I think another aspect of this expression that I didn't think of before is that whatever is being given is not only desirable, but also at least somewhat uncommon. If someone graces you with their presence, it's not a commonly occurring event, it's something they've chosen to do this time.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Lambuzhao »

clawgrip wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:Looking at it from another angle, what conlanger wouldn't consider adding a new phoneme (neutral per se) as something positive or desirable, especially if they were really sweating and losing sleep over less-than-complete and or less-than-perfect phonology???

'Cuz one thing I have learned by my own experience, and reading and learning from others, is that we conlangers, we're the sort to painstakingly sweat the small stuff (when we're not busy arsing it off :roll: ).
Not all phonemes are positive...try telling someone you put /ɱ/ in your conlang.
[:x] Not yet, I haven't. :roll:
I think another aspect of this expression that I didn't think of before is that whatever is being given is not only desirable, but also at least somewhat uncommon. If someone graces you with their presence, it's not a commonly occurring event, it's something they've chosen to do this time.
I see your point. But the teacher in the situation above who says it, says it with fangs dripping the ironical subtext of "you are the last person on Earth I want to see right now".
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Dormouse559
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Dormouse559 »

HinGambleGoth wrote:What am I dealing with here?
HinGambleGoth wrote:Wash = Warsh
Winter = Winner
sound change
HinGambleGoth wrote:Dragged = Drug
irregularization
HinGambleGoth wrote:Height = heighth
analogy
clawgrip
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by clawgrip »

Lambuzhao wrote:
clawgrip wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:Looking at it from another angle, what conlanger wouldn't consider adding a new phoneme (neutral per se) as something positive or desirable, especially if they were really sweating and losing sleep over less-than-complete and or less-than-perfect phonology???

'Cuz one thing I have learned by my own experience, and reading and learning from others, is that we conlangers, we're the sort to painstakingly sweat the small stuff (when we're not busy arsing it off :roll: ).
Not all phonemes are positive...try telling someone you put /ɱ/ in your conlang.
[:x] Not yet, I haven't. :roll:
I think another aspect of this expression that I didn't think of before is that whatever is being given is not only desirable, but also at least somewhat uncommon. If someone graces you with their presence, it's not a commonly occurring event, it's something they've chosen to do this time.
I see your point. But the teacher in the situation above who says it, says it with fangs dripping the ironical subtext of "you are the last person on Earth I want to see right now".
Of course, ironic usage basically refutes or inverts the literal, dictionary definition.
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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by HinGambleGoth »

Are there any English dialects that still have the original English plural pronouns with initial h that were replaced by Norse-derived th-forms?
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
[B)] Image Image :deu:
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

I have no idea what those are, as such, feel free to "grace us with examples."
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by eldin raigmore »

From Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, "So pricketh hem natur' in her' corages".
"Hem" is third person plural accusative, "her" is third person plural genitive.
Nowadays we'd say "them" and "their".
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

How did I not remember that!? I had to memorize 18 lines of that... including your example.
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by eldin raigmore »

XXXVII wrote:How did I not remember that!? I had to memorize 18 lines of that... including your example.
I'd still like more examples, preferably from HinGambleGoth.
I'd also like to hear the answer to HGG's question.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by sangi39 »

Well Wiktionary suggests that "'em", as in "hit 'em", derives from Middle English "hem", itself from Old English "heom", the dative form of the plural 3rd person pronoun "hīe" (they).

I'm not aware of any dialect that continues to use reflexes of "hīe" outside of this example, but that's just me [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

How is 'em not a shortening of them or an imprecise rendering of a shortened him ('im)?
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by eldin raigmore »

XXXVII wrote:How is 'em not a shortening of them or an imprecise rendering of a shortened him ('im)?
Assuming (and why not?) sangi39 correctly understood them, you'd need to ask the Wiktionariographers.
As for me, I'm with you about half-way. I think it's sometimes a contraction of "get them!", especially when it is spelled <get'em>. When it's a contraction of "get him!" it's likelier spelled <get'im>.
Of course a completely neutral and IMO equally correct spelling would be <get'm>.

I can't help wondering about the "dative", though. Isn't it just as likely (or even likelier) to be accusative as dative? 'Though it could easily be dative sometimes. (IMHO).
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Uzhdarchios
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Re: Quick Questions on English

Post by Uzhdarchios »

The OED agrees with Wiktionary and adds some more information:
Spoiler:
Originally the dative singular form, him and its reflexes gradually spread to uses that had historically shown the accusative (compare notes at senses 1b and 2), replacing hi pron.2 in these uses (compare hi pron.2 II.), before being in turn replaced as stressed form by them pron. in most varieties by the end of the Middle English period. In early modern English (and later in informal or colloquial use and in regional varieties) 'em largely functions as an unstressed form corresponding to them, although it is of distinct origin. (On the form 'em as a variant of them pron. in some modern Scots varieties see ζ. forms at them pron., adj., and n. and discussion at that entry.)

Form history.

In Old English originally formally identical with the dative singular masculine and neuter him him pron. (see Forms 1α). (The chiefly late West Saxon form hym probably reflects laxing of i in him in low stress.)

In later Old English, forms with a diphthong are attested, most frequently as heom (see Forms 1β); these apparently occur earliest in Kentish and are also attested in later Mercian, but become frequent from the 11th cent. onwards, being well attested in late West Saxon. They are probably influenced by forms of the genitive plural showing back mutation such as heora (see discussion at her pron.1 and adj.1) and therefore are likely to have had a short diphthong rather than the long diphthong of Old English feminine nominative singular hēo hoo pron. or nominative and accusative plural hēo (see hi pron.2). The late Old English form heam at Forms 1β shows unrounding of the second element of the diphthong probably due to low stress. Occasional Middle English forms that appear to show long vowels (compare heem at Forms 1γ) are probably due to analogy with other case forms of the pronoun in Middle English; compare the Middle English forms of hoo pron. and her pron.1 The spread of the diphthongal forms once they had arisen is usually attributed to systemic pressure, i.e. the need felt by speakers to differentiate between singular and plural in the dative.

In Middle English it is mainly the diphthongal forms that are continued from Old English. Middle English forms such as him, hym (see Forms 1α) are rare, and some of the few apparent attestations may be due to scribal confusion with the singular (i.e. him pron.). Forms such as hem (see Forms 1γ) chiefly reflect the expected monophthongization and unrounding of heom. The form hem is apparently first attested in Old English in the Taunton Fragment (see quot. OE at Forms 1γ), but is probably to be interpreted differently in that source; compare discussion of the form here at her pron.1 and adj.1 Middle English forms such as heom, hoem, etc. (see Forms 1β, Forms 1η) show early and western preservation of rounding of the monophthongized vowel, and so do some of the forms at Forms 1δ such as late Old English hom, although others are probably to be explained in the same way as Middle English hore, hor (compare discussion at her pron.1 and adj.1) or as resulting from the influence of such forms. With forms such as ham (see Forms 1ε) and ȝem (see Forms 1θ) compare discussion of parallel forms of her pron.1 and adj.1 at that entry. The early form ham in quot. c1175 at Forms 1ε, however, is perhaps influenced by following bām, dative plural of bēgen (see bo adj.)
The early attestation and eventual prevalence of loss of initial h- (see Forms 1ζ) is due to low stress; similar forms are found for other pronouns of the third person, as a pron., it pron., and the forms cited at Forms 1β, 1η at he pron.
There’s quite a long chain of attestations in various forms going back to Old English.
I can't help wondering about the "dative", though. Isn't it just as likely (or even likelier) to be accusative as dative? 'Though it could easily be dative sometimes. (IMHO).
The dative took over the role of the accusative in Middle English, and the original accusative was lost.
I'm not aware of any dialect that continues to use reflexes of "hīe" outside of this example, but that's just me.
The OED says it survives as the pronoun a in Lincolnshire, Warwickshire, and Shropshire — or at least it did until recently.
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