The Index Diachronica: THE INDEX DIACHRONICA RIDES AGAIN

A forum for guides, lessons and sharing of useful information.
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

The Index Diachronica: THE INDEX DIACHRONICA RIDES AGAIN

Post by Man in Space »

I would like to make the Index Unicode-compatible for ease of searching, but redoing the entire 300+-page document in XeTeX or XeLaTeX or whatever would take me a considerable amount of time. Therefore, I am asking for help.

Would any of you be willing to convert a section or few? I'm told that there's ways to include multiple documents in one document, so I could use some help on that as well (and changing the page orientation for certain pages, which would make it easier to display the phonologies of, for instance, the Caucasian protolanguages).

If you're interested (or if you have some sound changes for or feedback on the document), please shoot me a message.

Thank you.
Last edited by Man in Space on 31 Aug 2022 07:18, edited 4 times in total.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
runic
runic
Posts: 2698
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

Wouldn't there be a way to just do a "Find and Replace" operation on the document? I have no idea what those formats were you referenced, but aren't there already Unicode characters used throughout the document?

I'm confused.
Image
User avatar
Adarain
greek
greek
Posts: 511
Joined: 03 Jul 2015 15:36
Location: Switzerland, usually

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by Adarain »

The current system uses Tipa, a package which does some crazy witchcraft to make it seem like there is Unicode but is actually ascii with different fonts.

That said, couldn't you port over the document to XeLaTeX and replace all uses of tipa with the respective symbols? Like replace \textipa{N} with ŋ? That would probably already solve a lot, wouldn't it?
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by Man in Space »

Adarain wrote:That said, couldn't you port over the document to XeLaTeX and replace all uses of tipa with the respective symbols? Like replace \textipa{N} with ŋ? That would probably already solve a lot, wouldn't it?
I can't do that because I have stuff like \ipa{m n N} (I changed the command to make it shorter) where you have several symbols under one command.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
Adarain
greek
greek
Posts: 511
Joined: 03 Jul 2015 15:36
Location: Switzerland, usually

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by Adarain »

It would at least replace some parts, so it’d be a little bit less work for afterwards. Considering how big the document is it might cut quite a lot of work if one only has to deal with places where multiple symbols are in sequence.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by qwed117 »

I'm willing to help.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by qwed117 »

I've for the most part finished the Sardinian Changes
UV represent stressed and unstressed vowels, respectively (Don't ask me how this happened; it just did!)
Accent vowels are also stressed
SZ represent unvoiced and voiced plosives respectively; care must be taken so that <qu> and <gu> are both in this group
FB represent front and back vowels respectively, a is not in either group
Spoiler:
ae/e/_
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV] "It seems as if b->Ø was a later shift coming from Iberia; it's not present in habeo->appo"
h//[#C]_
m//_#
i/dʒ/#_
/i/#_s "May have come later along from Iberia, mainly found in Logudorese"
l[ld]/ɖɖ/[UV]_[UV]
nd/ɳɖ/[UV]_[UV]
u//C_C
l/r/_C "may have been reverse near stressed vowels to give abbaltzare from abbratzare
l→r/C_
v→b/#_
S/Z/[UV]_V
qu/pp/[VU]_[UV]/#_ "Did not occur in Nuorese or Campidanese"
gu/bb/[VU]_[UV]/#_ "Did not occur in Nuorese or Campidanese"
ngu/mb/_ "Mainly Logudorese; mm and ngu are present in other dialects"
qu/k/#_[VU]
k/ʦ/_[íi]"May have occured after r/i/c(h)u in some dialects, giving bétzu instead of béciu "
t/ʦ/_[íi]
ii/i/_
ge/i/[VU]_
[pk]/s/_s
o/u/_k
k/t/_t
i/l/l_ "Wikipedia claims it might've shifted to [dz], [ts], [ldz] or [dʒ]"
eu/u/_#
k/c/_[auúá]/s_ "Occured to qu in Campidanese
k/ch/s_[auúá] "Orthography correction"
r/i/c(h)_u "Possible deletion"
g/n/_n
ks/sc/_ "can be replaced with just x"
/ur/#_rF "only present in Logudorese"
/ar/#_rB "only present in Logudorese"
[bdg]/ /[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
d/r/[VU]_[UV] "Some Campidanese, esp. near Cagliari"
p/β/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
t/ð/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
k/ɣ /[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
[ks]/c/s_
Edit: Made a little mistake regarding initial "i". It goes to dZ not, Z (XSampa)
Last edited by qwed117 on 22 Aug 2015 21:11, edited 4 times in total.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by Man in Space »

Thanks, qwed117!

I'm a bit confused about this change:
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV] "It seems as if b->Ø was a later shift coming from Iberia; it's not present in habeo->appo"
It looks like it says that those sounds were deleted between all vowels. Can you clarify this a bit, please?
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by qwed117 »

Linguifex wrote:Thanks, qwed117!

I'm a bit confused about this change:
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV] "It seems as if b->Ø was a later shift coming from Iberia; it's not present in habeo->appo"
It looks like it says that those sounds were deleted between all vowels. Can you clarify this a bit, please?
That's precisely what happened. I was surprised too. It's present in haber-> aere, but not habeo->appo.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
kanejam
greek
greek
Posts: 714
Joined: 07 Jun 2013 07:50
Location: NZ

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Post by kanejam »

Presumably it was blocked by the e: habeo -> abjo -> appo. That's a complete guess though.
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by Man in Space »

The Index Diachronica v.8.1 is out.

qwed, you'd mentioned on IRC that your Sardinian changes were incomplete—let me know when they're done so I can add them to the document, please.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
User avatar
Thrice Xandvii
runic
runic
Posts: 2698
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:13
Location: Carnassus

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by Thrice Xandvii »

You still looking for help on this? If so, it might be helpful to post what specifically folks would have to know in order to volunteer... Because I'd love to help but have no idea what is actually required to do so.
Image
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by qwed117 »

Linguifex wrote:The Index Diachronica v.8.1 is out.

qwed, you'd mentioned on IRC that your Sardinian changes were incomplete—let me know when they're done so I can add them to the document, please.
Yes, they're unfinished, partly due to a scribal error on my part. The words Wikipedia gave were in the current Campidanese standard,which I misinterpreted as Logudorese so I have to fix that. I'm also going to make it into a IPA-friendly variant rather than one highly dependent on orthographical changes. Because of my current workload, however, that might take me past Thanksgiving. [:(]
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by qwed117 »

This should serve as a final copy. I tried to remove as much of my "orthography" as possible. S and Z represent unvoiced and voiced plosives (and kw and gw, together) U is the stressed vowels, and V is the unstressed vowels, but they should be omitted when placed onto the document. I don't think it's possible to remove the stressed-based accent without the SCA2 failing. Because of wide variation in spoken Sardinian, it is impossible to catalogue all occuring results of the sound changes (for example Cl->Cr occasionally has l retained, or goes fully to Cj). I have tried to get the most common pronunciations and dialectal variations down. Please pm me if you find any errors, or a word that doesn't go through to the expected outcome. It relies upon a latin text written in broad IPA (ie, /u u:/ not /ʊ u/)
Spoiler:
[UV]:/[UV]/_
e/i/C_[UV]
i/j/[UV]_[UV]
i/j/_[UV]
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV]
ae/e/_
au/o/_
h//[#C]_
m//_#
/i/_s "Mainly Logudorese, may have come from Iberia, despite lack of vowel shifts"
l[ld]/ɖɖ/[UV]_[UV] "Doesn't happen in bella; only known case"
nd/ɳɖ/[UV]_[UV]
stl/skl/_ "Rare?"
rcl/rc/_ "Rare?"
r/l/_C "Occasional, varies by case"
l→r/C_ "Occasional, varies by case; may have been reverse near stressed vowels to give abbaltzare from abbratzare"
r[ji]/rdʒ/[UV]_[UV] "dialectal"
v→b/#_
S/Z/[UV]_V
kw/pp/_V/#_ "Only Logudorese"
gw/bb/_V/#_ "Only Logudorese"
kw/k/#_[VU]
k/ʦ/_[íi]
ii/i/_ "Correction in case errors appear"
[pk]/s/_s
o/u/_k "dialectal?"
k//_t "may be retained?"
[ij]/l/l_
ll/[dz],[ts],[ldz],[dʒ],[ll]/_ "varies;dialectal?"
eu/u/_#
t/d/[UV]_r[UV]
k/s/s_
íi/í/_ "Correction in case errors appear"
[ji]e/ge/#_
d//[VU]_[ji]
n[ji]/ndʒ/_[UV]
t[ji]/ʦ/_[VU]
d/r/[VU]_[UV] "Some Campidanese, esp. near Cagliari"
b/β/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
d/ð/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
g/ɣ /[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
g/n/_n
/ur/#_r[e] "only present in Logudorese"
/ar/#_r(j)[uo] "only present in Logudorese; 'a' might also serve as trigger. Glides should be ignored for this in rivum->arriu"
My sources are mainly http://www.sardegnacultura.it/documenti ... 093224.pdf
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
User avatar
Man in Space
roman
roman
Posts: 1304
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 08:07
Location: Ohio

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by Man in Space »

Index Diachronica v.10.0 is out.

Anybody got a better set of changes for Norse? I've been told mine are wrong.
Twin Aster megathread

AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO

CC = Common Caber
CK = Classical Khaya
CT = Classical Ĝare n Tim Ar
Kg = Kgáweq'
PB = Proto-Beheic
PO = Proto-O
PTa = Proto-Taltic
STK = Sisỏk Tlar Kyanà
Tm = Təmattwəspwaypksma
Ephraim
sinic
sinic
Posts: 386
Joined: 15 Nov 2013 13:10
Location: Sweden

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by Ephraim »

Linguifex wrote:Index Diachronica v.10.0 is out.

Anybody got a better set of changes for Norse? I've been told mine are wrong.
They are sometimes wrong, and many of them are just hard to parse. You can just remove the first change θ→f / _l. I think source file that the changes are taken from included it because the author used an odd word list, where words like Gothic þliugan was taken to show the original cluster (the author actually mentions that other PG reconstructions have *fl here). It's almost certainly the other way around, Gothic had a sound change *fl > *þl in certain contexts.

Also, the changes are for Old Icelandic, although many are common to all Old Norse dialects, some are not even common to all of West Norse.

As far as I'm aware, there is no good list of sound changes that can be easily incorporated into the Index Diachronica. I've actually been working on compiling sound changes from Proto-Indo-European to late Medieval North Germanic but for each change, I'm trying to include a short description, sources, dating, and what dialects the change applied so it's a somewhat sizeable project, and it's perhaps not the main priority right now.

If the Proto-Germanic to Old Icelandic changes are the most interesting for people, I could perhaps try to focus on those and post something less detailed, I'm not making any promises about when, though.
User avatar
Lambuzhao
korean
korean
Posts: 5405
Joined: 13 May 2012 02:57

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Post by Lambuzhao »

Ephraim wrote:
Linguifex wrote:Index Diachronica v.10.0 is out.

Anybody got a better set of changes for Norse? I've been told mine are wrong.
They are sometimes wrong, and many of them are just hard to parse. You can just remove the first change θ→f / _l. I think source file that the changes are taken from included it because the author used an odd word list, where words like Gothic þliugan was taken to show the original cluster (the author actually mentions that other PG reconstructions have *fl here). It's almost certainly the other way around, Gothic had a sound change *fl > *þl in certain contexts.
Indeed, about the Gothic.
Which see-
http://www.jstor.org/stable/408893?seq= ... b_contents


ΚΥΔΟΣ, Linguifex. Most impressive!
User avatar
DesEsseintes
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4331
Joined: 31 Mar 2013 13:16

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.10.0 is out—IT'S PARTY TIME

Post by DesEsseintes »

I feel this resource is so valuable that it should be stickered. I only found the index about a year and a half after joining the CBB, and now I religiously update it.

The latest version even has sound changes for Cheyenne*! I mean, what could be awesomer? Seriously.

*Even though I suspect they are very incomplete
chridd
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 19
Joined: 17 Apr 2016 21:56
Location: the internet
Contact:

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.10.0 is out—IT'S PARTY TIME

Post by chridd »

Linguifex (almost a year ago, I know) wrote:I would like to make the Index Unicode-compatible for ease of searching, but redoing the entire 300+-page document in XeTeX or XeLaTeX or whatever would take me a considerable amount of time. Therefore, I am asking for help.
I think I've figured out how to make a Unicode PDF without having to retyping the whole thing (PDF, TeX source (use with xelatex), though this is based on an old version of Index Diachronica since I don't have the TeX source for the most recent version). (Mostly it just involved changing around the \usepackage statements, and also \ipa in section headings needed to be changed, and also a font that has all the characters.)

I've also made a webpage where you can search for sound changes involving a specific sound (again based on an old version).
~ chri d. d. /ʧɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · they (for now, at least) · My conlangs · Searchable Index Diachronica
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4094
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.10.0 is out—IT'S PARTY TIME

Post by qwed117 »

chridd wrote:
Linguifex (almost a year ago, I know) wrote:I would like to make the Index Unicode-compatible for ease of searching, but redoing the entire 300+-page document in XeTeX or XeLaTeX or whatever would take me a considerable amount of time. Therefore, I am asking for help.
I think I've figured out how to make a Unicode PDF without having to retyping the whole thing (PDF, TeX source (use with xelatex), though this is based on an old version of Index Diachronica since I don't have the TeX source for the most recent version). (Mostly it just involved changing around the \usepackage statements, and also \ipa in section headings needed to be changed, and also a font that has all the characters.)

I've also made a webpage where you can search for sound changes involving a specific sound (again based on an old version).
One thought: Amazing.
Spoiler:
My minicity is [http://zyphrazia.myminicity.com/xml]Zyphrazia and [http://novland.myminicity.com/xml]Novland.

Minicity has fallen :(
The SqwedgePad
Post Reply