A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational
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A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

So, I've been thinking about the Ethius thread, and I feel that would be made less annoying if conlangers knew how science worked -- the philosophy of science. So here we go.

Scientists follow what's now called postpositivism. The modern formulation was created by a guy named Karl Popper, and thus it's often called "Popperian postpositivism", but it dates back to Newton, who phrased it such: hypotheses non fingo -- "I do not frame hypotheses", but less literally, "I do not engage in untestable speculation".

Most formal logic you read about talks about evidence supporting theories, but in science, it's the other way around. Reality provides evidence, that we need to describe. We call these observations and phenomena.

What we call theories, scientific theories, describe the evidence. When a theory is disproved, it failed to describe the evidence accurately, and has to be replaced by a new theory. This does not change the fact that evidence exists, and has to be accounted for.

All scientific knowldege must be testable, repeatable, and disprovable.

If there is no possible situation where your theory can be disproved, then your theory cannot be used for anything useful, and cannot be improved, because you will have a retort for any criticism, every piece of evidence, no matter how valid, and no matter how many contortions you use. There must be defined criteria by which a theory is disproved, because that's the only way it can be improved.

An accepted theory is thus just one that describes the universe accurately. Human shit included. Disproving a theory doesn't alter the universe, it just means our abstractions were wrong.

Note, however, that disproven theories are often retained as easier to use approximations. Newtonian physics is an approximation of Einstein's general relativity...which turned out it turn to be incompatible with quantum mechanic's Standard Model, which is conversely incompatible with general relativity. Not to mention that the SM says gravity dosen't exist, which is plainly not true. Searching for a theory to merge them is a goal of physics.

Now, when I say that a scientific theory must be testable, I mean it. If it can be disproved, it must be done through evidence, not by pure reason, as Kant would call it. You can't learn about the universe simply by thinking really hard about it. (Ever hear of the book Critique of Pure Reason? The title might make more sense to you now.)

The adoption of Popperian-Newtonian science eventually caused Freud to become known for being a bunch of horseshit in psychology, and linguistics is increasingly in that vein as well. Many of, say, Chomsky's assumptions have been increasingly contradicted by reality, as have the derivative theories like universals, which turned out to be more "tendencies". Even things like ethics, considered the domain of philosophy, may be solved by the scientific application of game theory, evolution, and psychology.

Now, here's a thing you have to know: most scientific research findings are wrong. Any value can vary by the testing set up, possible researcher bias, and by pure chance, and a piece of research may get an inaccurate result. Thus science must also be repeatable, a theory must be tested multiple times, to ensure that the observation was accurate. This takes a lot of work. Complicating the matter is when news media fails to understand this and presents the new observations as facts, rather than another piece of data to be considered.

These criteria, testability, repeatability, and disprovability is how scence works. You may heard of Occam's razor. Well, this is a much more fine and ruthless razor -- Alder's razor, or, Newton's flaming laser sword.

Philosophers often disagree with Popperian/Newtonian philosophy, but to be frank, it produces results. We know of no other philosophy that allows us to accurately describe the world and gets us the information we want to do things, to describe the universe accurately. We might be wrong, but we don't seem to be wrong just yet.
Edit: And to be clear, this concerns science, including linguistics. This kind of philosophy can't be applied to everything just yet. Politics, for example, won't work with this, but we can't replace it until we learn a lot more.
Last edited by cntrational on 01 Sep 2015 23:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Ahzoh »

Badly written or not, this would be useful to explain to creationists and other scientifically illiterate people.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Sumelic »

cntrational wrote: Scientists follow what's now called postpositivism.
not all scientists

Side note: Norbert Hornstein is a generative grammarian linguist who sometimes writes interesting things about philosophy of science and linguistics on the blog "Faculty of Language." Honestly, I have trouble understanding some of what he says, but he certainly seems to be a legitimate scientist, and he also follows Chomsky's research program. I get the impression that there's a wide range of opinions among actual scientists about philosophy of science.
Last edited by Sumelic on 01 Sep 2015 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

Sorry.

Scientists who produce actual worthwhile research.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Sumelic »

cntrational wrote:Sorry.

Scientists who produce actual worthwhile research.
It's so scientific to present unsubstantiated assertions. Have you conducted any actual research on the relationship between a scientist's philosophical outlook and the value of their research?
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

It doesn't matter whatever a scientist believes. If they follow procedure properly, they're following the scientific method. They need to have repeated results to make it work.

And speaking as a guy who studies lingusitics, I do not believe generative grammar is an accurate description of how language works. The predictions it makes do not hold. There is no consise summary I can give you for this, but here.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

Also, from the blog you edited in after I made my post: http://facultyoflanguage.blogspot.in/20 ... oesnt.html
1. Species specificity: Nothing talks like humans talk, not even sorta kinda.
2. Linguistic creativity: “a mature native speaker can produce a new sentence on the appropriate occasion, and other speakers can understand it immediately, though it is equally new to them’ (Chomsky, Current Issues: 7). In other words, a native speaker of a given L has command over a discrete (and for all practical and theoretical purposes) infinity of differently interpreted linguistic expressions.
3. Plato’s Problem: Any human child can acquire any language with native proficiency if placed in the appropriate speech community.
4. Darwin’s Problem: Human linguistic capacity is a very recent biological innovation (roughly 50-100 kya).

(1) implies that there is something special about humans that allows them to be linguistically proficient in the unique way that they are. We can name the source of that proficiency: humans (and most likely only humans) have a linguistically dedicated faculty of language (FL) and “designed” to meet the computational exigencies peculiar to language.
This sounds reasonable until you realize one thing.

Nothing else on Earth thinks like humans do, either. (Leaving aside potentially sapient species like dolphins.)

There's no reason to consider linguistic facilities completly separate from other human cognition. They might overlap heavily. Or maybe there's no distinct linguistic facility, and language is a specific result of how human cognition works as a whole. We won't know until we do more research and use evidence.

There's more stuff I'd criticize in that post, but this is a big one -- a presentation of the fact that no other animal has language, while disregarding that no other animal has a human-level abstraction-based cognition.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

And I just noticed what you linked to there with "research program".

Lakatos is a postpositivist. He considers himself Popperian, and calls his methods a modification thereof. His methods aren't a rejection of falsification, they're his implementation of Popperian postpositivism that produces results.

That wasn't exactly a convincing link, rhetorically.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Sumelic »

I'm not trying to disprove postpositivism/Popperianism. And also, as I said earlier, I don't really follow what Hornstein writes all that well, so I don't feel qualified to judge what his positions are. It just seems unlikely to me that all scientists agree with the postpositivist framework. In fact, as you've said, I haven't shown any actual examples of non-postpositivists. If you know more than I do about it, you should know better than me if there are any people who reject postpositivism, and what their viewpoints are.

The link to "research program" wasn't really to score any kind of rhetorical point, but to provide context to other people reading the thread, since it's supposed to be an introduction to the philosophy of science.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote: Even things like ethics, considered the domain of philosophy, may be solved by the scientific application of game theory, evolution, and psychology.
Lmao, no. No they may not. How do you suppose that would work?
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

Sumelic wrote:I'm not trying to disprove postpositivism/Popperianism. And also, as I said earlier, I don't really follow what Hornstein writes all that well, so I don't feel qualified to judge what his positions are. It just seems unlikely to me that all scientists agree with the postpositivist framework. In fact, as you've said, I haven't shown any actual examples of non-postpositivists. If you know more than I do about it, you should know better than me if there are any people who reject postpositivism, and what their viewpoints are.

The link to "research program" wasn't really to score any kind of rhetorical point, but to provide context to other people reading the thread, since it's supposed to be an introduction to the philosophy of science.
The thing is, pretty much all professional scientists and mathematicians go for postpositivism today. The people who don't are philosophers (e.g., John Searle), and believe me, they can get real annoying sometimes.

And, to be honest, I really doubt most scientists even think of what they're thinking as a "postpositivist framework". For most scientists, philosophy is something annoying people do, and what they do arle just the methods that produce results. Which are both pretty true, in general. You haven't known frustration until you've argued with someone who insists robots can't think because it goes against their philosophy.

Chomskyian theory is pretty complicated, to put it mildly. It takes a lot of boring study to learn about it and compare it with other linguistic theories. And I feel that it's not accurate.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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thetha wrote:
cntrational wrote: Even things like ethics, considered the domain of philosophy, may be solved by the scientific application of game theory, evolution, and psychology.
Lmao, no. No they may not. How do you suppose that would work?
To be precise, many ethicists wish to find a set of universal human values and ethics

While this has traditionally been done by "pure reason", there's no reason we can't use our newer knowledge of those three fields to research human beings and find out what's really fundamental and what's not.

Different thing from "this is the ethics system we should have".
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by thetha »

Ethics isn't psychology, it's ethics. No one ever tried to use deductive reasoning to figure out what the intuitions of the whole of humanity were, they used them to figure out which set of ethics was *correct*.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

Ethics goes beyond finding "correct" ethics for this very moment.

We're not finding the intentions of the whole of humanty, we're determining what values are truly universal. Nobody holds only those values, of course, but they allow us to form a framework for handling future and past societies. We can explain why societies have certain ethics if we see the formation in their context. We can determine how to convince people to have certain ethics we deem are good.

You'll never find that out through thought alone.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

cntrational wrote:
thetha wrote:
cntrational wrote: Even things like ethics, considered the domain of philosophy, may be solved by the scientific application of game theory, evolution, and psychology.
Lmao, no. No they may not. How do you suppose that would work?
To be precise, many ethicists wish to find a set of universal human values and ethics

While this has traditionally been done by "pure reason", there's no reason we can't use our newer knowledge of those three fields to research human beings and find out what's really fundamental and what's not.

Different thing from "this is the ethics system we should have".
The thing is, ethics is by its very nature not descriptive. It's not an attempt to find what humans think that humans should do, but an actual attempt to find what humans should do. It seems like you might as well do nothing but study the respiratory system and vocal tract to try to figure out how to write an opera. I don't like John Searle or Chomsky either, but I don't see how philosophy as a concept (as opposed to strictly academic philosophy) is going to be replaced by science as a concept. The idea that science is supreme is itself a sort of philosophy.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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OK, to be clear, ethics in a formal definition is a broader term than the normal "what humans should do". Sorry about that. More on this below.

And I don't believe philosophy will be replaced by science, but I do believe that a lot of fields traditionally the domain of philosophy alone will influenced by science, much as, say, the distinction between hard and soft sciences is getting fuzzier.

Opera singers do in fact study respiration and phonetics. They even use IPA. I know that's not what you meant by "write an opera", but it is what I mean -- articulation is now a basis on which opera singers can perfect their form, just as an evidence-based foundation of ethics will allow us to form a better system of complete ethics.

And yes, postpositivism is a type of philosophy. It's the philosophy followed by science.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote:just as an evidence-based foundation of ethics will allow us to form a better system of complete ethics.
What exactly do you mean by "an evidence-based foundation of ethics"?
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Ahzoh »

I don't suppose that Empiricism as a philosophy relates to postpositivism?
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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postpositivism is a kind of empiricism.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

Look, I don't want to get hung up on this minor point. If you still disagree after this post, please don't continue the argument.

Human psychology and ethics are linked, as are evolution and game theory. If we determined a baseline for human ethics, we could create a system to make determining a complete "should do this" ethics easier. Just as you can do art or music bettter by knowing the principles of visuals or music, all of which are specific to humans and not universal, you can become better at it.

Similarly, creating a baseline and a set of components to base full ethics off of would make it a lot more easy to make something that actually works for people, as well as make us capable of dealing with other types of ethics, even if we disagree with them. The focus is on implementation and practicality.
Ahzoh wrote:I don't suppose that Empiricism as a philosophy relates to postpositivism?
We don't follow the strict interpretation of senses alone, because we realize that our senses and psychology can fool us. But the interpretation that knowledge comes from the outside, and should be gotten by experiment, yes, very much so. What thetha said.
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