A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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HoskhMatriarch
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by HoskhMatriarch »

cntrational wrote:OK, to be clear, ethics in a formal definition is a broader term than the normal "what humans should do". Sorry about that. More on this below.

And I don't believe philosophy will be replaced by science, but I do believe that a lot of fields traditionally the domain of philosophy alone will influenced by science, much as, say, the distinction between hard and soft sciences is getting fuzzier.

Opera singers do in fact study respiration and phonetics. They even use IPA. I know that's not what you meant by "write an opera", but it is what I mean -- articulation is now a basis on which opera singers can perfect their form, just as an evidence-based foundation of ethics will allow us to form a better system of complete ethics.

And yes, postpositivism is a type of philosophy. It's the philosophy followed by science.
Yes, I know singers use IPA and study those things, since I know singers and talk with them. What I was trying to say that only studying those things won't help you write an opera; you have to actually study music theory in addition to that. Likewise, only studying what humans do in practice won't help you construct an ideal way for them to behave, even if it helps a lot.
cntrational wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:I don't suppose that Empiricism as a philosophy relates to postpositivism?
We don't follow the strict interpretation of senses alone, because we realize that our senses and psychology can fool us. But the interpretation that knowledge comes from the outside, and should be gotten by experiment, yes, very much so. What thetha said.
So if we're not following just our reason and senses, what else are we following?
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by thetha »

It's not a minor point at all, cntrational, it's one of the most bizarre and worrying things that I've ever heard come from more than one person. But you haven't explained anything at all. I want to know how you could possibly manage to derive from scientific claims alone a set of normative propositions and an argument that they have objective truth. This is the only way to reasonably interpret what you're claiming we can do in the sentence "ethics may be solved by the scientific application of whatever".

Anyway, you can't just say something incredibly controversial in the middle of a post and expect people not to react. It's like if someone was writing an essay on mammal anatomy and how dissection can reveal why pigs do the things they do and slipped in a sentence about how when you dissect a pig their soul flies out and they lose 3 oz of weight. It has little to do with what's going on in the rest of the essay but it's worth addressing.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

I'm getting irritated.

Ethics are not written into the universe, they're derived from human psychology. What's so ridiculous about the idea that we can know how humans handle a psychological phonemenon called "ethics" except by studying psychology?

It's essentially saying that we can't study anything involving human opinions and decisions. We're not determining the objective truth here, whatever that is, we're determining the principles by which human psychology functions. Including ethics.

This doesn't mean we can determine an objective ethics from this, anymore than we can determine the objective way to intepret the world from researching semantics, or determine the objective language from researching linguistics.

But what it does mean is that we can more easily interpret semantics, more easily interpret language, and more easily interpret human ethics, if we know what the underlying rules are. And then we can implement them into something. Distinguishing knowledge and implementation is the important thing here.

We know how nuclear energy works, but that itself does not determine whether we construct nuclear reactors or nuclear bombs, but you can't do the latter without the former. But you can do the former without giving one shit about the latter.

Underlying ethical psychology is the knowledge. A full system of ethics like you are talking about will take elements from underlying ethical psychology, it is an implementation thereof, likely merged with other components, just as nuclear bombs require engineering and shit, not just physics, but they are still distinct concepts.
Last edited by cntrational on 02 Sep 2015 00:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

HoskhMatriarch wrote:So if we're not following just our reason and senses, what else are we following?
We are following those. But we also know that they can't be completely accurate. So we devise systems to account for this. That's what the "scientific method" is all about.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote:An accepted theory is thus just one that describes the universe accurately. Human shit included. Disproving a theory doesn't alter the universe, it just means our abstractions were wrong.
The whole universe? I'd rather say that it should describe the phenomenon in question accurately.
cntrational wrote:
thetha wrote:
cntrational wrote: Even things like ethics, considered the domain of philosophy, may be solved by the scientific application of game theory, evolution, and psychology.
Lmao, no. No they may not. How do you suppose that would work?
To be precise, many ethicists wish to find a set of universal human values and ethics

While this has traditionally been done by "pure reason", there's no reason we can't use our newer knowledge of those three fields to research human beings and find out what's really fundamental and what's not.

Different thing from "this is the ethics system we should have".
The kind of ethic a society employs depends on many factors, e. g. their lifestyle (nomadic, sedentary), scarcity of resources, their mentality, religious believes, historic events etc., it does not make sense to search for a ''set of universal human values and ethics''. To have something like that would essentially mean that there is no freedom. What is the reason why some people are in ethics? They want to shape society in a certain way. Other people like it in another way, using different ethics. Is death penalty ethical? Is long term imprisonment ethical? Why? Why not?

Humans researching human beings is creating a self-reference. I'd be very carefully concerning the results.
Last edited by Tanni on 02 Sep 2015 11:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

yes, that's a metonym
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote: Human psychology and ethics are linked, as are evolution and game theory. If we determined a baseline for human ethics, we could create a system to make determining a complete "should do this" ethics easier. Just as you can do art or music bettter by knowing the principles of visuals or music, all of which are specific to humans and not universal, you can become better at it.
Psychology as an academic subject started at the beginning of the 19th century. Ethics in the sense of morality or ''right behaviour'' is part of various religions for thousands of years. If there is a linkage at all, it must be that psychology tries to find out about ethics. Evolution is the survival of the fittest, which in many cases contradicts to what we normally call ethics. You can use psychology, evolutionary aspects and game theory to understand ethical reasoning, but I wouldn't say that they're linked. Ethics is not only about ''should do this'' but also and more so about what you shouldn't do.
cntrational wrote:yes, that's a metonym
The universe is another name for the phenomenon in question? If metonym means that's just another name for the other, than thats not correct unless the phenomenon in question is the whole universe. Science starts out with well defined, rather small part of the universe, and may discover that these small parts are connected to larger parts and so on.
Last edited by Tanni on 02 Sep 2015 11:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

I refuse to get into this argument again. Please do not continue it.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote:Chomskyian theory is pretty complicated, to put it mildly. It takes a lot of boring study to learn about it and compare it with other linguistic theories. And I feel that it's not accurate.
Bashing Chomsky has become kind of a trend in recent times. I think, one has to remember that before Chomsky some people (if not everyone) thought that language has to be taught to children like mathematics or like you train a dog. Chomsky was one of the first people who argued that language is part of the normal human cognitive development. And I think that recent development in psycholinguistics, that view the "language faculty" as a dependent part of the 'cognitive faculty' (see Tomasello e.g.), do not really contradict the goals of language. Generative Theories, like Optimality Theory, are also searching for extra-grammatical reasons for formal building blocks. Maybe what Chomsky called 'language faculty' is actually distributed over different cognitive areas.

I think that "Chomskyan Linguistics" (and I know that people use it as an insult) actually is a kind of postpositivism, since it uses theories and tries to disprove them using language data. The language data is usually elicited under repeatable scientific conditions.

Saying that you feel a theory is not accurate and it is to complicated is not really scientific either. I would advise you not to try to lean all "Chomskyan Theories" (whatever that may include), but search for one theory in a generative framework for a certain domain in grammar, that you are interested in and try to compare it to a non-Chomskyan non-generative theory. You might be able to compare them.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by gestaltist »

A good writeup, cntr. I have a few comments.

I couldn’t help but notice that you seem to have a very emotional attachment to the Popperian philosophy. Why do you get so worked up when people aren’t sure it can be universally applied? The scientific method hasn’t been discovered by Popper. It’s been around in various forms at least starting with Aristotle who already described deductive and inductive reasoning. The Wiener Kreis, Popper included, has only added a new comment to that. Science would be alive and kicking even if Popper never existed.

I may be completely wrong but you sound like you only accepted induction. Everything is an approximation of the human experience of the universe, etc. This is simply not true. You do not account for the formal sciences like mathematics and logic. In those, there is objective truth... You have your axioms and you derive more complex theorems from them. Terms like falsifiability don’t even make much sense in that context.

To apply this notion to the discussion you had about ethics: you argue that ethics needs to be described via the inductive method and that it is not universal. How do you know? We found ways to link arithmetics and logic. Maybe there is a way to have axiomatic ethics, too? I would not presume to know.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

gestaltist wrote:A good writeup, cntr. I have a few comments.

I couldn’t help but notice that you seem to have a very emotional attachment to the Popperian philosophy. Why do you get so worked up when people aren’t sure it can be universally applied? The scientific method hasn’t been discovered by Popper. It’s been around in various forms at least starting with Aristotle who already described deductive and inductive reasoning. The Wiener Kreis, Popper included, has only added a new comment to that. Science would be alive and kicking even if Popper never existed.
Oh, that's just how I write.
I may be completely wrong but you sound like you only accepted induction. Everything is an approximation of the human experience of the universe, etc. This is simply not true. You do not account for the formal sciences like mathematics and logic. In those, there is objective truth... You have your axioms and you derive more complex theorems from them. Terms like falsifiability don’t even make much sense in that context.
Yeah, but this is a very basic introduction to this kind of science in particular, because modern linguistics concerns it. You're right, I should've been clearer on this.
To apply this notion to the discussion you had about ethics: you argue that ethics needs to be described via the inductive method and that it is not universal. How do you know? We found ways to link arithmetics and logic. Maybe there is a way to have axiomatic ethics, too? I would not presume to know.
I wouldn't say ethics can be made axiomatic, but rather that universal aspects of human psychology can make handling ethics easier.

And no, I do not believe there's a truly objective set of ethics. A tribe of humans who lives on the plains of Africa needs a different ethics from a colony of humans on a zero-gravity space station, to cite an extreme.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Salmoneus »

cntrational wrote:A tribe of humans who lives on the plains of Africa needs a different ethics from a colony of humans on a zero-gravity space station, to cite an extreme.
That's a contradiction in terms!

You begin with an objective ethical term: "need". X need Y. This presupposes an objective ethical standard. You then deny an objective ethical standard. Therefore the position is by itself incoherent.

Unless, of course, you meant 'need' not in the sense of 'should have' or 'would benefit from having' ('benefit' is an ethical term presupposing a value system) but in the sense of 'cannot exist without'. In which case the claim is just transparantly false (if a colony of humans adopted khoisan ethical systems, they would not cease to exist, therefore they do not 'need' different ethics in this sense) - plus irrelevent, as it would have no ethical consequences. [Nothing can be relevant in a conversation unless it carries ethical consequences - because the implication "this should influence your beliefs" is a form of ethical content]

-----

I don't think you understand what ethics is. Yes, psychology and sociology can study the question of what people tend to believe is ethical - but that has nothing to do with ethics. At most, it's useful in telling which word means which thing.

You may think there are no objective truths about ethics. But that, of course, is itself a purported objective truth about ethics - and a purported truth, what's more, that cannot be demonstrated scientifically.

Any attempt to do away with ethics through science is pseudoscience by definition.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote: Philosophers often disagree with Popperian/Newtonian philosophy, but to be frank, it produces results. We know of no other philosophy that allows us to accurately describe the world and gets us the information we want to do things, to describe the universe accurately. We might be wrong, but we don't seem to be wrong just yet.
I'd say scientists and philosophers of science can often agree on their "methods" in a more concrete sense - how to perform experiments or make observations and formulate theories. There is much more disagreement about the more abstract questions in philosophy of science (such as the metaphysics and epistemology of science).
Edit: And to be clear, this concerns science, including linguistics. This kind of philosophy can't be applied to everything just yet. Politics, for example, won't work with this, but we can't replace it until we learn a lot more.
Do you include also philosophy and various humanistic disciplines in your notion of science?
cntrational wrote:Ethics are not written into the universe, they're derived from human psychology. What's so ridiculous about the idea that we can know how humans handle a psychological phonemenon called "ethics" except by studying psychology?
Please... this is one particular view about the nature of ethics, which is far from universally accepted. Maybe we'd need an introduction to metaethics?

Finally, thank God for Sal's post...
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Salmoneus »

A few clarifications to prevent confusion...
cntrational wrote: Scientists follow what's now called postpositivism. The modern formulation was created by a guy named Karl Popper, and thus it's often called "Popperian postpositivism", but it dates back to Newton, who phrased it such: hypotheses non fingo -- "I do not frame hypotheses", but less literally, "I do not engage in untestable speculation".
Newton's views were closer to empiricism than to Popperian critical rationalism.
Most formal logic you read about talks about evidence supporting theories, but in science, it's the other way around.
If it talks about evidence and theories, it's not formal logic. Formal logic talks about premises and valid deduction - it has nothing to do with evidence or theories.
Reality provides evidence
This is the fallacy of the myth of the given. Respectable people no longer believe this.
that we need to describe. We call these observations and phenomena.
It is important to distinguish between observations and phenomena. Phenomena are the things that are present in the world of sense and perception. Observations are more technical, but I guess we could loosely say that they're the kind of experiential events that are likely to have the potential to change our beliefs about phenomena. The point is, the phenomenon is what we're trying to explain, the observation is how we learn about the phenomenon.

What we call theories, scientific theories, describe the evidence.
No! A scientific theory predicts observations. Reviews and descriptions of evidence are important in order to judge theories, and inspire new theories, but they are not themselves theories.

When a theory is disproved, it failed to describe the evidence accurately, and has to be replaced by a new theory.
We should probably note that a theory is never actually disproven - this is logically impossible! This is why the scientific method is required: the scientific method is NOT about disproof, it is about falsification. Which is a procedural system that does not guarantee truth, and which must be justified instrumentally. Essentially, it is a social contract in which scientists say "I will say I was wrong if..." and hem that "if" in with standard ethical rules and social norms and so on (which essentially amount to 'I won't be an arse about it' - since it's always rationally possible to deny that any falsification criteria have actually been met). This does not amount to disproving anything - it's just a promise to (for now) stop claiming that something is true.
This does not change the fact that evidence exists, and has to be accounted for.
That's a bit misleading. Both the nature of the evidence, and the scope of what is and is not evidence, is theory-dependent. There is no evidence until there is a theory...
All scientific knowldege must be testable, repeatable, and disprovable.
Falsifiable, not disprovable. And no, this is not the case (it's obviously impossible). You mean specifically scientific theories, not all scientific knowledge (you can't have falsifiable theories unless you also include a whole bunch of axiomatic, untestable stuff as knowledge). Even then, 'repeatable' isn't exactly the issue - it's more 'non-non-repeatable' - because you can have valid scientific knowledge about, say, a supernova, even though those observations can never be repeated.
If there is no possible situation where your theory can be disproved, then your theory cannot be used for anything useful,
Well that's not true. "1+1=2" is a paradigm case of an unfalsifiable theory, but is useful. "If there is no possible situation where your theory can be falsified, then your theory cannot be used for anything useful" is another example of an unfalsifiable theory (in this case, an ethical theory! Since 'useful' is a term that only makes sense within a specified value system). "People shouldn't torture puppies" is also unfalsifiable. So are "that tastes delicious!", "I love you", and "I have a headache"...
and cannot be improved
That's not really true. Empirically, empirical theory did improve considerably even without explicit falsification criteria. Empirically, most modern science also does not use explicit falsification criteria, and while it's not perfect, it clearly involves improvement in some instances.

An accepted theory is thus just one that describes the universe accurately.
That's an unfalsifiable theory, and it's also false. Many theories were accepted, but did not describe the universe accurately.

Disproving a theory doesn't alter the universe, it just means our abstractions were wrong.
An unfalsifiable, essentially religious doctrine.
Note, however, that disproven theories are often retained as easier to use approximations. Newtonian physics is an approximation of Einstein's general relativity...which turned out it turn to be incompatible with quantum mechanic's Standard Model, which is conversely incompatible with general relativity. Not to mention that the SM says gravity dosen't exist, which is plainly not true. Searching for a theory to merge them is a goal of physics.
The SM doesn't say gravity doesn't exist. It just doesn't explain it. And 'approximation' is an unfalsifiable concept by definition.

Now, when I say that a scientific theory must be testable, I mean it. If it can be disproved, it must be done through evidence, not by pure reason, as Kant would call it.
On the contrary, reason is the only thing that can disprove something. As Kant points out in the Critique of Pure Reason, reason is the arbiter of truth in all judgements. And that can include pure reason without evidence. For instance, if I type in "1/0" on my calculator and it says "7", my evidence (good calculators have been shown to be extremely accurate when it comes to mathematics) and my reason (I can work out for myself that 1 divided by 0 cannot equal 7) conflict. It is my pure reason that tells me to ignore the evidence - or, more accurately, it is pure reason that tells me what the evidence is evidence of (in this case, that my calculator is faulty) and what it is not of (that on this one occasion, division of unity by zero was possible and yielded 7).
You can't learn about the universe simply by thinking really hard about it. (Ever hear of the book Critique of Pure Reason? The title might make more sense to you now.)
Consider:
a) either the scientific method yields more accurate knowledge of the world (than alternatives) or it does not.
b) if we knew that it did, we would know something about the world (it is a world in which scientific method yields... etc)
c) so if we knew a) through reason rather than through evidence, it would be possible to learn about the universe through reason rather than evidence
d) to know a) through evidence would require evidence about the accuracy of scientific knowledge vs the accuracy of non-scientific knowledge. This in turn requires knowing i) what science says is the case; ii) what non-science says is the case; and iii) what is in fact the case. We cannot supply iii) through science, as that would be begging the question, nor through non-science, as that would be begging the question. Therefore we cannot supply iii) through any method. Therefore there can be no evidence about the accuracy of scientific knowledge.
e) therefore either we know about the accuracy of the scientific method through reason, or we do not know about it at all
f) by c), if we know a) through reason then reason is enough to let us learn about the world. But if we do not know a) at all, then we cannot say that scientific methods are a better way of learning than reason is.

So either your claim is false, or else there is merely no reason (or evidence) to think it true.

So why do we do science? Well, in d) we cannot have direct evidence of the accuracy of science. But we can have evidence that people who follow science are less surprised by observations. If we then assume that a theory that renders the universe relatively unsurprising is an accurate theory, then we can justify science. But that theory in turn requires us to believe that the universe actually is inherently a consistent, reliable, unsurprising place. And that is an axiom that, at most, can be supported by reason (if that!), and certainly not by evidence...
The adoption of Popperian-Newtonian science eventually caused Freud to become known for being a bunch of horseshit in psychology, and linguistics is increasingly in that vein as well. Many of, say, Chomsky's assumptions have been increasingly contradicted by reality, as have the derivative theories like universals, which turned out to be more "tendencies". Even things like ethics, considered the domain of philosophy, may be solved by the scientific application of game theory, evolution, and psychology.
I don't think you know what some of these words mean.
Now, here's a thing you have to know: most scientific research findings are wrong. Any value can vary by the testing set up, possible researcher bias, and by pure chance, and a piece of research may get an inaccurate result. Thus science must also be repeatable, a theory must be tested multiple times, to ensure that the observation was accurate.
Repetition of an experiment does not ensure that the observation was accurate - that is the whole point of falsification vs verification.
Philosophers often disagree with Popperian/Newtonian philosophy, but to be frank, it produces results. We know of no other philosophy that allows us to accurately describe the world and gets us the information we want to do things, to describe the universe accurately. We might be wrong, but we don't seem to be wrong just yet.
This is all a religious dogma. And ignorant, too (philosophers rarely disagree with Popper that much (and Popper was a philosopher; this entire thread is philosophy)). And Newton didn't follow anything resembling critical rationalism. For instance, one of Newton's theories was that the planets didn't stop spinning because the hand of God periodically added the required additional spin lost to friction with the aether. This is not a theory popper would have approved of, as there is no way to disprove divine intervention...
Politics, for example, won't work with this, but we can't replace it until we learn a lot more.
A strange exception. Political science does indeed attempt to follow the scientific method.

P.S. Critical rationalism is not in fact "the" scientific method, though it is often advertised as such.

Hope that cleared up a few points you were confused on!




EDIT: on learning about ethics through psychology: this is exactly the same as saying "we can learn about lava by analysing the psychology of people who use the term 'lava'" - rather than, say, analysing lava. Of course, you may believe there's no such thing as lava. But you cannot demonstrate "volcanos do not in fact errupt lava" purely by examining the psychology of people living near volcanos - you have to actually look at the volcano at some point! So in saying 'there is no lava, lava is a myth!', either you are fallaciously extrapolating from the psychology of those who believe in lava (which cannot tell you anything about the existence of lava itself), or you are making a claim based on the study of alleged lava phenomena themselves, in which case you are not only studying psychology.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by cntrational »

Alright, fair enough, I should've wrote this more carefully and learned a few more details. I mostly typed this out of annoyonce.

nevermind all this, then, and sorry
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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cntrational wrote:nevermind all this, then, and sorry
You prompted a whole flurry of interesting discussion and got Sal talking about the philosophy of science, so instead of neverminding I'm inclined to mind my way through the whole thread.

For those interested, this thread over on the zbb was a pretty great read; this post was especially relevant to science and its philosophy.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by gestaltist »

[+1] to Trailsend. Sal knows his stuff.

(He also makes me feel bad about myself - I have an MA in Philosophy but have largely abandoned the field since, and reading Sal’s posts makes me ask myself how in hell I forgot all of this.)
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

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Trailsend wrote:
cntrational wrote:nevermind all this, then, and sorry
You prompted a whole flurry of interesting discussion and got Sal talking about the philosophy of science, so instead of neverminding I'm inclined to mind my way through the whole thread.
IMO it's mainly Sal's posts that hold the quality I would expect from someone who claims to be teaching me something. The TS seems to have been making some rather bold assertions throughout the thread, that not always seem to be grounded in (academic) philosophy of science. Since "Popperian/Newtonian philosophy" is not anything I've heard of before (I have a BA in philosophy), I googled it - and this thread was the only result I got... I therefore wonder if "Popperian/Newtonian philosophy" is a notion that TS made up, or of he/she really has got it from someone else.

It's not only this thread – I think the quality in the teach & share forum has been somewhat uneven. As a rule of thumb, I think it's safe to say that if you have strong emotional feelings on some subject, you'd probably not be a good teacher...
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by Salmoneus »

Well, thank you for the kind words people; and sorry for the harsh words, cnt. Sloppy reasoning is a red rag, and I'm never great at tact at the best of times (I wasn't angry at you - I just like analysing poor reasoning).

And hello, fellow philosophy graduates!

----

I should caveat: much of what I say is wrong. Some of what I say, I know others would consider wrong, since my philosophical views aren't particularly in fashion at the moment. But if you go around caveating everything with 'but others believe differently', you'll never get anywhere, and I think the key point is that I can be wrong, yet at the same time the person I'm arguing with can be even more wrong. Partly this is because I'm more interested in philosophy as a way of thinking about the world than as a body of doctrine... several things I said there, people could doubtless construct good arguments against... I just didn't think that cntrational could, and that was my problem with his post.

----

Xing: I disagree, actually. I think it's more helpful to see 'teaching' as a reflexive action - the teacher is the one who learns. The attempt to express, formulate, argue for, make clear someone you THINK you know about is a very good way to learn about it. [Someone above linked to that threat I did years back on the ZBB - I actually learned an awful lot from writing that! I think maybe philosophy courses should have compulsory coursework, 'describe the history of philosophy, in your own words...'] And of course it's an invitation for others to come in and share alternative perspectives too.
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Re: A badly written introduction to the scientific method

Post by gestaltist »

Salmoneus wrote:my philosophical views aren't particularly in fashion at the moment
Out of curiosity: what are your views? If you’re comfortable sharing, of course.
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