A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

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qwed117
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by qwed117 »

Ok, I'm only starting this now, but here's my attempt at hw 1. (I tried to do it with no notes, it didn't go well)
Spoiler:
1) Write out the pronunciation of the following words:
parǒl (bucket) /pa'ro:l/
żěl (frost) /'s̪e:l/ /'z̠e:l/
gât (cat) /'ga:t/
ninàt (pig) /ni'nat/
cumpâgn(a) (like, as, the same as) /kum'pa:ɲ/ /kum'pa:ɲa/
nêṡ (nose) /'ne:s̠/ (I realized upon doing this one that I had no idea what the difference between retracted sibilants and the dental sibilants, so I went back and edited <żěl>)
càp (roof, plurale tantum) /'kap/

2) Spell the following words: (I'm so confused because stress isn't marked)
/tas̠εːl/ (attic, especially when used as a storage room) <taṡěl>
/z̪oːven/ (young) <zǒven>
/răs/ (red) <raṡ>
/bε̃ĩ/ (well) <bein>
/bɔ̃ũ/ (good) <boun>
/seːrv̩/ (it is useful/needed; syllabic /v/) <ṡěrv> (It's here that I realized I had no idea what to mark /εː/ with in the first problem)
/bεːz̠/ (kiss n) <běż>
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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All4Ɇn
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by All4Ɇn »

Just noticed this thread and just wanted to say you've done an amazing job at teaching a Romance language I knew next to nothing about beforehand. Still going through all the posts but I hope to make it through all of them soon.

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kanejam
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by kanejam »

Alessio wrote:
31 Mar 2020 18:07
Okay guys, tt's been a long time. Not that this thing of me taking forever to write a lesson is new.
You already know all of my excuses by heart and I even made a post about them, so let's just get down to business!
Apologies, I've been away from this thread for quite a while! A spěr che tè e la tǒ famîglia e amîg a sî sicûr e san (guessing on the vocab here, hopefully I'm close)
Alessio wrote:
31 Mar 2020 18:07
Notice that this <d> needs to be inserted even before other consonants: <in> + <la> becomes <indla>, and <in> + <na> becomes <indna>. English speakers are probably accustomed to nasal releases, so they won't have problems with <ndn>... I hope.
Oof that's a bit of a doozy of a cluster! Even indla is a bit tricky.
Alessio wrote:
31 Mar 2020 18:07
Quant ân gh'âl can ed tǒ surêla? - How old is your sister's dog?
Ět sintû l'ultma canzoun ed Vâsco? - Did you hear the latest Vasco Rossi song?
I can't see if this was covered in the phonology section, but it looks like the nasal vowels in can and canzoun count as ending in consonants, so we don't see ed reduce. I'm guessing an [n] shows up as well. Does the vowel stay nasal though?

Exercises:
Spoiler:
In Itâlia, mo a dîr la veritê in tót al mànd, a sàm in pîna emergeinza Coronavirus. A pêr ch'al vîrus al sìa partî da la Cîna, e subét a parîva ch'al fósa arivê par? (guessing here based on the translation - 'arrived by us' doesn't actually work in English) nuêter par vìa d'un melnàt ch'l'ěra apeina turnê, apunt, da la Cîna e l'ěra andê a zeina coun un sǒ amîg seinza dîrghel. Pò dàp l'è saltê fǒra che quàl ch'al duvîva ěser al "pazint żêro" an gh'îva mâi avû nisun vîrus. Insàma, nisun l'à incàra capî d'indà's sìa deṡgnû.
Par un měṡ, pió o měno, a sàm stê tót un pǒ preocupê, mo gnanc pió'd tant. Sǒl che al nómer d'i malê al cuntinuêva a andêr só, finché as sàm catê pió'd mél persouni coun al vîrus.
Adêsa l'è bêle pasê un měṡ e a sàm incàra adrě a spitêr al "picco", la vàta 'd la cûrva ch'is dîṡen tant ed zerchêr d'apiatîrla, mo l'è dimóndi difézel s'an gh'in frěga gnint a nisun. I ein tót in gîr, bě cum al sǒl, is câten a magnêr insàm, i van a fêr la spěṡa un dè sè e cl'êter nò, insàma i fan incǒsa fǒra che stêr a cà. L'è na bêla lôta, vè, ragazǒ...
Alessio wrote:
31 Mar 2020 18:07
dîrghel
Now that's a nice word!

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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by kanejam »

qwed117 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 19:10
Ok, I'm only starting this now, but here's my attempt at hw 1. (I tried to do it with no notes, it didn't go well)
Spoiler:
1) Write out the pronunciation of the following words:
parǒl (bucket) /pa'ro:l/
żěl (frost) /'s̪e:l/ /'e:l/ /'z̪e:l/
gât (cat) /'ga:t/
ninàt (pig) /ni'nat/
cumpâgn(a) (like, as, the same as) /kum'pa:ɲ/ /kum'pa:ɲa/
nêṡ (nose) /'ne:s̠/ /'nε:z̠/
càp (roof, plurale tantum) /'kap/

2) Spell the following words: (I'm so confused because stress isn't marked)
/tas̠εːl/ (attic, especially when used as a storage room) <taṡěl> tasêl
/z̪oːven/ (young) <zǒven> <żǒven>
/răs/ (red) <raṡ> ràs
/bε̃ĩ/ (well) <bein>
/bɔ̃ũ/ (good) <boun>
/seːrv̩/ (it is useful/needed; syllabic /v/) <ěrv> sěrv
/bεːz̠/ (kiss n) <běż> bêż
I hope you or Alessio don't mind if I try correcting this. Here's what you got stuck on: long vowels are always stressed; the overdot on the sibilants marks voice, they're voiceless otherwise; <z ż> mark the dentals /s̪ z̪/ while <s ṡ> marks the retracted /s̠ z̠/; <ê ô> mark the mid-open /εː ɔː/ while <ǒ ě> mark the mid-closed /eː oː/.

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qwed117
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by qwed117 »

kanejam wrote:
07 May 2020 00:18
qwed117 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 19:10
Ok, I'm only starting this now, but here's my attempt at hw 1. (I tried to do it with no notes, it didn't go well)
Spoiler:
1) Write out the pronunciation of the following words:
parǒl (bucket) /pa'ro:l/
żěl (frost) /'s̪e:l/ /'e:l/ /'z̪e:l/
gât (cat) /'ga:t/
ninàt (pig) /ni'nat/
cumpâgn(a) (like, as, the same as) /kum'pa:ɲ/ /kum'pa:ɲa/
nêṡ (nose) /'ne:s̠/ /'nε:z̠/
càp (roof, plurale tantum) /'kap/

2) Spell the following words: (I'm so confused because stress isn't marked)
/tas̠εːl/ (attic, especially when used as a storage room) <taṡěl> tasêl
/z̪oːven/ (young) <zǒven> <żǒven>
/răs/ (red) <raṡ> ràs
/bε̃ĩ/ (well) <bein>
/bɔ̃ũ/ (good) <boun>
/seːrv̩/ (it is useful/needed; syllabic /v/) <ěrv> sěrv
/bεːz̠/ (kiss n) <běż> bêż
I hope you or Alessio don't mind if I try correcting this. Here's what you got stuck on: long vowels are always stressed; the overdot on the sibilants marks voice, they're voiceless otherwise; <z ż> mark the dentals /s̪ z̪/ while <s ṡ> marks the retracted /s̠ z̠/; <ê ô> mark the mid-open /εː ɔː/ while <ǒ ě> mark the mid-closed /eː oː/.
Yeah, I don't mind. I realized all of this *after* doing the pset, because I was trying to do it w/o any looking back, which makes it not easy. I should have realized that retraction differentiated the <s z> sets, like Basque, not voicing.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by Alessio »

Thanks, Kanejam, for replying in my stead.
I've been stuck writing the next lesson for a while - it's coming out very long - so that's why you haven't heard from me during the last month.
I'll be back ASAP. Tgnî bôta incàra un pǒc! (hold on for a little longer!)
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

Alessio
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by Alessio »

LESSON 11
PREPOSITIONS. PART 2


In the last lesson we've seen how Emilian prepositions can be roughly divided into two categories: those that are composed of just one word (i.e. the "prepositions proper") and those that are made of an adverb + one or more prepositions (the "preposition(al) phrases").
The topic of today's lesson will be the second set. While there are many more preposition phrases than there are prepositions, they mostly have only one meaning, so this lesson might be longer but easier.
A side note: I know that "prepositional phrase" means something else in English. I just couldn't come up with a better term, so I used a direct translation of what we say in Italian (locuzione prepositiva). If anybody has any suggestions, I will gladly use the good old find and replace function and clear this up.

PLACE
If we use a cube to represent the space around the speaker, you will identify 10 zones of interest:
left
right
on
under
above
below
in front
behind
inside
outside

All of these are rendered by preposition phrases in Emilian:
left -> a sinéstra ed
right -> a děstra ed
on -> edcǒ a
under -> sàta a
above -> ed sǒver da
below -> ed sàta da
in front -> davanti a
behind -> ed drě da
inside -> deinter a
outside -> fǒra ed

All of these phrases can be used without the preposition if they act as adverbs, and with the preposition when they modify a noun. Take these sentences as an example:
A vâg deinter. - I'm going inside.
La mâchina l'è deintr'al garâg'. - The car is inside the garage.


Don't confuse <davanti a> e <ed drě a> with these adverbs, expressing motion in a direction:
avanti - forward(s)
indrě - backward(s)

Have a look at these sentences:
Andàm avanti. - Let's go on/forward.
S'et màt la rětro, la mâchina la và indrě. - If you put it in reverse, the car will move backwards.

"Left" and "right" stay unchanged in such a context:
Vǒlta/gîra a sinéstra. - Turn left.
Notice that both <sinéstra> and <děstra> are virtually always found after a preposition: <a> for motion to or towards, and <da> for motion from.


You might be interested in a couple more phrases expressing a state in place:
in the middle (of) -> in mêż a
near -> atěṡ a
far -> luntan /lun'tãː(n)/ da
around -> (d')intǒren a
along -> lóng a
opposite (to) -> ed frunt a (watch out: this is a false friend)

Another interesting phrase is <atâc a>, i.e. "next to with contact, attached to". This phrase is often used vith vertical surfaces, making it quite similar to German <an> (compare <auf> for the other usages of "on"). For example:
Atâc al mûr a gh'ò un quêder ed Van Gòg. - I have a Van Gogh painting on the wall.

Various prefixed forms of <dôs> (which can't be used by itself, and comes from Latin dorsum) have similar meanings, but are related to people. <adôs> is the basic form:
Et gh'ê un ragn adôs. - You've got a spider on you.

<indôs> is used for something you're wearing:
Al gh'îva indôs na fělpa něgra. - He was wearing a black sweatshirt.

<da dôs> (sorry, people spell this one differently from the others, and common usage wins over logic) means "off of [someone]", where that someone is the indirect object of the main verb:
Lěvem cal ragn da dôs! - Take that spider off of me!
Stâm só da dôs! - Get off of me!/Let me f***ing breathe!

TIME
The two most important phrases concerning time are without a doubt
préma ed - before
dàp (ed) - after

Now, <dàp> is a bit of a weird case, because it's only very rarely found with its preposition. Even when it servers its purpose as a prepositional phrase, it's typically used alone:
Arcôrdet d'an dêreg ménga da magnêr dàp meżanôt! - Remember to not feed them after midnight!

I'd go as far as saying that using the preposition <ed> in the sentence above is ungrammatical.
The one instance where it is always found together with said preposition is before a personal pronoun:
L'è arivê subét dàp ed mè. - He arrived immediately after me.

None of this applies to <préma ed>, which follows the rules we discussed for the other prepositional phrases.

Naturally, both phrases have an adverbial usage; those can be rendered in English as "earlier" and "later" respectively.
«A vâg a zeina.» «Mè ag soun andê préma.» - «I'm going to have dinner.» «I've already had it earlier.»
«Pǒrta fǒra al rósc!» «Sè, dàp ag vâg...» - «Take out the trash!» «Yeah, whatever, I'll do it later.»

<préma ed> can take a verb in the infinitive to express "before doing":
Peinsa préma'd dîr dal cajunêd! - Think before saying bullshit!

The verb can also be in the past infinitive (infinitive of the auxiliary + past participle):
Préma d'ěsr'andê a Parîgi, an n'ěra mâi stê in Francia. - Before/Prior to visiting Paris (lit. before having gone to Paris), I had never been in France.

<dàp> can be followed by an infinitive, too, but in this case the infinitive must be a past one:
Dàp avěr vést i vǒt ed so fiǒl, al l'à impî'd scupazoun. - After seeing his son's grades, he spanked him real hard.

If the action of the main clause will happen in the future, don't use <dàp> + past infinitive. Prefer <quand> + compound past:
Quand t'ê finî ed magněr, và a lêt. - After you're done eating, go to bed.

As a side note, both <préma> and <dàp> can have spatial meanings, indicating that something is positioned along the road to somewhere and is encountered respectively before or after that something.



We have already met the phrase <(in cal) meinter che> during lesson 9, when discussing the past tense. This is not technically a prepositional phrase - rather, it is a conjunction - but it works a lot like prepositional phrases, if you consider "che" to be its preposition:
(In cal) meinter ch'a magnêva, a m'è sunê al telěfon. - While I was eating, my phone rang.

Remember that, for past sentences, "meinter" is always followed by a verb in the imperfect tense. You could also used with a present, which is more interesting when it comes to its adverbial usage:
(In cal) meinter ch'am parpêr, tîra fǒra la mâchina. - While I get dressed (reflexive in Emilian, whence the <am>), get the car out of the garage.

This sentence could be rewritten as follows.
Mè am parpêr. Tè, indal/in cal meinter, tîra fǒra la mâchina. - I'll get dressed. Get the car out of the garage in the meantime.

Two things to notice: first, the adverbial usage of <meinter> means "in the meantime". Second, you can use <indal> ("in the") in place of <in cal> ("in that") in such a sentence, but one of the two is mandatory. You can not use <meinter> alone.



Most other prepositions of time are "prepositions proper", and we've already covered them. There is one last prepositional phrase I want to teach you:
fin a - until

Now, this phrase is complicated. First of all, it has no adverbial form, meaning that you will never find <fin> without <a> (if not as a noun meaning "end" or an adjective meaning "fine", but those are just homographs).
Second, <fin a> can only be followed by a noun:
Fin a sîra - until the evening
Fin al 2015 - until 2015

... or it can be followed by a verb in the infinitive:
L'à magnê fin a scupiêr. - He ate until he blew up. (ideomatic phrase meaning "he ate too much")

In such a case, the verb in the infinitive must have the same subject as the main verb, i.e. you can't say "l'à infiê al baloun fin a scupiêr" for "he inflated the balloon until it blew up" (the sentence I wrote would mean "he inflated the balloon until he himself blew up").

If the subjects don't agree, or if you want to put a whole clause after <fin>, you need to replace the preposition <a> with the conjunction <che>. However, rather than <fin che>, you will always find <finchè>, because the Italian counterpart of this... "conjunction phrase"? is written as one word, namely <finché>.
Stay with me now, because <finchè> is a tricky one.

When the clause that follows is about an ongoing situation, no big deal. The meaning just changes slightly to "as long as":
Finchè la mâchina la và, an la câmbi ménga. - I won't change this car as long as it still runs.

It might also mean "while", as in "while you're still on time":
Finchè t'ě żǒven, gôdet la véta. - Enjoy life while you're still young.

Another "very Emilian" usage of <finchè> is the following:
Finchè t'ě in cuṡeina, pǒrtem un bicěr d'âqua. - Since you're in the kitchen, bring me a glass of water.
Here, the meaning of <finchè> is something between "since" and "while". Think of the sentence above as "oh wait, don't leave the kitchen just yet, pour me a glass of water and bring it to me on your way here".

When the clause after <finchè> expresses a change at some precise point in time, things get a bit more complicated. Have a look at this sentence:
Finchè t'an finés la verdûra, t'e-stê a têvla. - You will stay here until you've eaten all your vegetables.

Here, the verb "finîr" (to consume completely, to finish up) is in the negative. The rule is that if a verb expresses a change rather than a state, it must be in the negative when <finchè> comes into play. Think of it this way: Emilian has no word for "until", and <finchè> means "as long as". Thus, you have to say "as long as you haven't finished your vegetables".
This does only half of the trick, though. You can clearly see that <finés> is in the present tense, so the sentence literally says "as long as you don't finish up your vegetables", which, in English, means the exact opposite.
Of course, "as long as" is just an ideomatic expression in English, that can be replaced with "if" without too big a change in meaning, so this is only an unfortunate coincidence. You should rather think of the Emilian sentence as "while what you are doing is not finishing up your vegetables, you won't leave the table".

The same rules apply in the past, but here the tenses come to our help, since we now have an imperfective vs. perfective distinction:
Finchè la mâchina l'andèva, an l'ò mâi cambiêda. - While the car still worked, I didn't change it. (yeah, this sentence doesn't make much sense in English, does it?)
A j ò tgnû la mâchina finché l'an s'è ràta. - I kept the car until it broke (again reflexive in Emilian).

As you can see, the first sentence uses an imperfect past and expresses an ongoing (imperfective) action, and thus it has an affirmative verb, just like you'd expect. The second one, on the other hand, expresses a change ("the car broke"), thus it has a verb in the negative and it uses the simple past (kind of like a perfective aspect). Grammatically speaking, with <finchè>, any verb in the imperfect tense will be in the affirmative, and any verb in the past simple will be in the negative. You could find a negative verb in the imperfect tense I guess ("while X was not doing..."), but it's a lot better to just rework the sentence so that it uses a verb of change instead ("until X started doing...").


OTHER PHRASES
Here is a very short collection of miscellaneous prepositional phrases you might be interested in.

insàm a - together (with)
seinza (ed) - without (just like for <dàp>, the preposition is used only before a personal pronoun)

This phrase doesn't have an adverbial usage, thus it is always found together with its preposition:

par vìa ed - because of


EXERCISES
Good job reading through this entire monster of a lesson! Now have fun trying to complete these exercises.
  1. Fill in the blanks with a prepositional phrase indicating place. Pay attention if you need to include the preposition or not.
    1. A gh'ò un giardein _________ cà. - I have a backyard. (lit. I have a garden behind home)
    2. Quî ch'i stan chè ________ i fan seimper dal caṡein. - The guys leaving upstairs (EML: "here above") are always making a lot of noise.
    3. Màt't a sěder ________. - Have a seat in the front.
    4. Ed sôlit i ǒv i ein _______ la galeina. - Usually the eggs are under the chicken.
    5. _______ la banca a gh'è al cìnema. - The cinema is opposite to the bank.
  2. This time, fill in the blanks using prepositional phrases of time.
    1. _______ incuntrêret a pinsêva t'an n'esistés ménga. - Before I met you I thought you didn't exist.
    2. _______ al film a sàm andê a magnêr quêl insàm. - After the movie, we went to eat something together.
    3. T'm piaṡîv dimóndi, _________ t'an n'ê dét che t'ěr vegetarian. - I liked you a lot, until you told me you were vegetarian.
    4. A gh'ò da lavêr i piât. ___________, tè, pulés al bagn. - I have to wash the dishes. You clean the bathroom in the meantime.
    5. As tàca'd restêr in cà _______l 3 ed mâż. - We'll have to stay at home until May 3.
  3. Complete this text using any prepositional phrase you find suitable. Watch out for hints regarding articles.
    Al Lêg dla Ninfa l'è un lagàt artificiêl situê ________ [1] al Mount Cimoun, indal comun ed Sěstla. Indi ûltem 50 an l'à guadagnê seimper pió popolaritê, ______ [2] dvintêr al lagàt pió famǒṡ ed tóta la pruvincia ed Môdna.
    _________ [3] al lagàt as pǒl peschêr, a cundizioun ed turnêr a butêr _______ [4] tót quàl ch'un al pàsca.
    S'un al deṡvin dal paěṡ e al guêrda věrs al lagàt, ___________ [5] al vàd dû ristorant, un un pǒ pió grand e un un pǒ pió cin; __________ [6], invěci, al vàd la piněta, parfêta par fêreg un picnìc.
    Se __________ [7] d'arivêr al lagàt un al vǒlta _________ [8], al câta na sbâra ch'la blôca la strêda, e un parcàg' par lasêreg la mâchina e andêr só a pě. Subét _______ [9] la sbâra, infâti, la tâca la strêda ch'la và ___ [10] ______ [11] arivêr indun spiâz ind'a gh'ein dǒ funtaneini d'âqua fràsca (Al Funtâni), e pò la cunténua ______ [12] la vàta dal Cimoun.
    _______ [13] la muntâgna a gh'è un oservatôri metereolôgic e l'antàna dal telěfon ch'la servés tóta la żôna. Quand ag vâg mè, am piěṡ seimper guardêr al celulêr e fêr la batûda: "oh, al ciâpa anc chè ______ [14]!".
    Insàma, s'av câpita d'ěser a Môdna, av cunséli'd tǒrev na giurnêda par andêr al Cimoun. Parparêv parchè al viâż l'è lóng - pió o měno 75 (stanta-zinc) chilômeter - mo a soun sicûr ch'av pieṡrà. E pò d'istê, quand in pianûra a gh'è 40 (quaranta) grêd, al Lêg ed sôlit ag n'è měno ed 25 (vint-zinc)...

    The Ninfa lake is a small artificial lake situated on top of [1] Mt. Cimone, in the municipality of Sestola. During these past 50 years it gained a lot of popularity, until [2] it became the most famous lake in the province of Modena.
    Around [3] the lake fishing is allowed, but it's mandatory to throw back into (inside [4]) the lake whatever fish you get.
    Coming from the town of Sestola and looking towards the lake, on the left [5] you can see two restaurants, one slightly bigger than the other; on the right [6], instead, you can see a pinewood, perfect for a picnic.
    If you turn left [8] before [7] arriving at the lake, you will find an iron bar blocking the way, and a parking lot where you can leave your car and continue on foot. In fact, right after [9] the bar, you will find a road that goes up [10] until [11] a small square with two fresh water fountains (Le Fontane), and then goes on until [12] the peak of Mt. Cimone.
    On top of [13] the mountain you will find a weather observatory and a telephone repeater, serving the whole zone. When I go there, I never miss the opportunity to look at the phone screen and jokingly say "that's incredible, I have service even up [14] here!".
    In short, if you ever happen to be in Modena, I advise that you save a day to go to Mt. Cimone. Be warned, the journey is long - more or less 75 km (46 miles and a half) - but I'm sure you'll like it. Moreover during the summer, when the temperature in the plains reaches 40 °C (104 °F), usually it's lower than 25 °C (77 °F) by the lake...
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

NoahDalton
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by NoahDalton »

I have a question. First, I really love this course, and I am following it very thoroughly, so please, keep it up! My question is in regards to negation.

If <an>, <t'an>, <l'an>, and <in> are all required to negate a verb, then how are you supposed to do a negative sentence with an unstressed object pronoun? If the unstressed subject pronoun is already merged with the negation article <n>, then how do would you even say, "I don't see you"? Would it be:

1. An t'vàd ménga.
2. T'an vàd ménga.*
3. An n'at vàd ménga.
Or something else that I didn't say?

Again, keep up the phenomenal work, and I look forward to your response!

* I understand that "t'an vàd ménga" would also mean "you don't see," so I can probably assume that this isn't the correct answer on how to do a negative sentence with an unstressed object pronoun.

Alessio
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by Alessio »

Your question makes sense. The rule is:

Unstressed subject pronoun + negating particle + unstressed object pronoun + verb + ménga/brîṡa

Thus the correct answer to your question is 1, although /tv/ is a "difficult" cluster, so an <e> will most certainly be inserted - an et vàd ménga. There is no fake gemination though, I guess since the <e> is euphonic it isn't taken into consideration for this specific rule.
We can gloss this phrase as:

a-n et vàd ménga
1SG.US-NEG 2SG.UO see.3SG.PRES NEG

The important thing to notice here is that <a> and <an> merge, so it looks like there is no USP in the sentence, but it is actually there.
And yes, number 2. does indeed mean "you don't see".

You already know that spelling is a bit of a pain in the ass and has no real standard, so by all means, look at the morphology rather than at the orthography. Other possible variations of mine include:
a n'et vàd ménga
an e-t vàd ménga
a n'e-t vàd ménga
and so on.

Hope this clears up the doubt!
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

NoahDalton
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by NoahDalton »

Alessio wrote:
28 May 2020 18:41
Your question makes sense. The rule is:

Unstressed subject pronoun + negating particle + unstressed object pronoun + verb + ménga/brîṡa

Thus the correct answer to your question is 1, although /tv/ is a "difficult" cluster, so an <e> will most certainly be inserted - an et vàd ménga. There is no fake gemination though, I guess since the <e> is euphonic it isn't taken into consideration for this specific rule.
We can gloss this phrase as:

a-n et vàd ménga
1SG.US-NEG 2SG.UO see.3SG.PRES NEG

The important thing to notice here is that <a> and <an> merge, so it looks like there is no USP in the sentence, but it is actually there.
And yes, number 2. does indeed mean "you don't see".

You already know that spelling is a bit of a pain in the ass and has no real standard, so by all means, look at the morphology rather than at the orthography. Other possible variations of mine include:
a n'et vàd ménga
an e-t vàd ménga
a n'e-t vàd ménga
and so on.

Hope this clears up the doubt!
That makes a lot of sense! Would I add a euphonic <e> to all unstressed object pronouns, not just for "you?" For example:

Et n'em vàd ménga. = You don't see me.
Al n'eg vàda ménga. = He doesn't see her.
La n'eg vàda ménga. = She doesn't see him.
A n'es vdî ménga. = You all don't see us.
I n'ev vàden ménga. = They don't see you all.

Thank you for the help thus far!

Alessio
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by Alessio »

That makes a lot of sense! Would I add a euphonic <e> to all unstressed object pronouns, not just for "you?" For example:

Et n'em vàd ménga. = You don't see me.
Al n'eg vàda ménga. = He doesn't see her.
La n'eg vàda ménga. = She doesn't see him.
A n'es vdî ménga. = You all don't see us.
I n'ev vàden ménga. = They don't see you all.
Watch out: <eg> is a dative pronoun, not an accusative (which would be al for masculine objects and la for feminine objects). Also, vàder is a 2nd conjugation verb, so the three singular persons are all vàd. vàda is the subjunctive, which we haven't studied yet.

As for your question, the rules for adding the e- are a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately. Sometimes you have to use it in a specific way. I'll rewrite your examples in the correct form:

T'an (u)m vàd ménga. - You don't see me.

Here you were a bit unlucky. You might recall from my previous lessons that /m/ can be syllabic, and it happens in this sentence. However, since /m/ is a labial, speakers that can't pronounce it as a syllabic consonant or whose dialect does not offer this opportunity will add an /u/, rather than an /e/.

An la vàd ménga. - He doesn't see her.

There's not much to say about this if not that <al> + <an> gives <an>.

La n'al vàd ménga. - She doesn't see him.

You would have got this one right if not for the <eg> vs. <al> thing. By the way, la n'eg vàd ménga means she can't see or she is blind, since <eg> is also a particle indicating place (corresponding to Italian ci or French y) that sometimes appears in ideomatic expressions like this one.

An se vdî ménga. - You (pl) don't see us.

For one-letter words, that mostly have three versions (C, eC and Ce), the euphonic <e> should generally be placed on the side that touches the hardest cluster. /svd/ is not allowed in Emilian, thus you should put the /e/ after the /s/ rather than before it.

I n'ev vàden ménga. - They don't see you (pl).

This one is correct. Good job!

At the end of the day, yes you do use the euphonic <e> quite a lot in these examples, but watch out for its position!
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

NoahDalton
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by NoahDalton »

Alessio wrote:
29 May 2020 21:24
That makes a lot of sense! Would I add a euphonic <e> to all unstressed object pronouns, not just for "you?" For example:

Et n'em vàd ménga. = You don't see me.
Al n'eg vàda ménga. = He doesn't see her.
La n'eg vàda ménga. = She doesn't see him.
A n'es vdî ménga. = You all don't see us.
I n'ev vàden ménga. = They don't see you all.
Watch out: <eg> is a dative pronoun, not an accusative (which would be al for masculine objects and la for feminine objects). Also, vàder is a 2nd conjugation verb, so the three singular persons are all vàd. vàda is the subjunctive, which we haven't studied yet.

As for your question, the rules for adding the e- are a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately. Sometimes you have to use it in a specific way. I'll rewrite your examples in the correct form:

T'an (u)m vàd ménga. - You don't see me.

Here you were a bit unlucky. You might recall from my previous lessons that /m/ can be syllabic, and it happens in this sentence. However, since /m/ is a labial, speakers that can't pronounce it as a syllabic consonant or whose dialect does not offer this opportunity will add an /u/, rather than an /e/.

An la vàd ménga. - He doesn't see her.

There's not much to say about this if not that <al> + <an> gives <an>.

La n'al vàd ménga. - She doesn't see him.

You would have got this one right if not for the <eg> vs. <al> thing. By the way, la n'eg vàd ménga means she can't see or she is blind, since <eg> is also a particle indicating place (corresponding to Italian ci or French y) that sometimes appears in ideomatic expressions like this one.

An se vdî ménga. - You (pl) don't see us.

For one-letter words, that mostly have three versions (C, eC and Ce), the euphonic <e> should generally be placed on the side that touches the hardest cluster. /svd/ is not allowed in Emilian, thus you should put the /e/ after the /s/ rather than before it.

I n'ev vàden ménga. - They don't see you (pl).

This one is correct. Good job!

At the end of the day, yes you do use the euphonic <e> quite a lot in these examples, but watch out for its position!
You have been so helpful! I love your language, and I will continue to follow this thread closely. Additionally, thank you for correcting me on the accidental usage of the dative instead of the UOP.

Alessio
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by Alessio »

So before the next lesson is ready, how about we finally find out how Emilian actually sounds?
Here is a recording of myself speaking Emilian. The transcript is just below. Enjoy it!

https://voca.ro/oBxbf2PuOiu

Bounasîra a tót! A gh'îva dal teimp da pěrder e a j ò pinsê ed druvêrel par fêrev un àudio in dialàt.
Incǒ a soun andê a fêr un gîr tra Pêrma e Piaṡeinza. A j ò vést dǒ zitê - Fideinza e Fiurinzǒla - e un bǒrg antîc - Vigulein. Tót e trî i pôst i m'ein piaṡu dimondi, specialmeint Vigulein. L'è un burgàt edcǒ al prémi muntâgni dal piaṡintein, al cunfin coun la pruvincia ed Pêrma, cinein mo dimóndi bêl. S'av câpita, av cunséli d'andêreg.
L'ónic quêl l'è che quand a sàm arivê a j avàm descuěrt* che la vìsita ch'a vlîvem fêr nuêter la gh'ěra sǒl la dmànga, e a s'è tuchê tǒrn'un êtra cla custêva měno mo a se vdîva dimóndi měno rǒba. L'è vêlsa la pěna ed listàs: cal pôst lè l'è maravejǒṡ.
E gninta, a m'arcmand, stêm bein e cuntinuê a studiêr al nôster dialàt!

Good evening everybody! I had some time to waste so I thought I could use it to record an audio track in Emilian.
Today I went for a tour [of some places] between Parma and Piacenza. I saw two cities - Fidenza and Fiorenzuola d'Arda - and an ancient village - Vigoleno. I liked all three of them, but Vigoleno was the best. It's a little hamlet at the entrance of the mountain range south of Piacenza, close to the border with the province of Parma, quite small but very beautiful. If you ever get the chance, I advise you to go there.
The only thing [I didn't like] was that when we arrived we found out that the guided tour we wanted to go for was only available on Sundays, so we had to buy a different ticket that cost less but also allowed you to see much less. It was still worth it: that place is wonderful.
Well, that's it! [generic exhortation, lit. "I recommend"], take care and keep studying our "dialect"!

*I chose to spell /des'kweːrt/ with a <c> and not a <q> because there would be no etymologic reason for a <q> to be there. Italian and Latin both have <c> (scoprire ← s + cooperire).
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: :rus: [:)] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás, Hedetsūrk, Darezh...

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żōv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vōl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żōven...

NoahDalton
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Re: A soun incàra vîv - Emilian lessons v2

Post by NoahDalton »

This actually helps me a lot. I am wondering if it's okay to say <z> as /θ/ since I can't really hear the difference when you were speaking between /θ/ and /s̪/; same with /ð/ for /z̪/.

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