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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Creyeditor »

When I think of foster care, I think of a state-certified system. This system is based purely on informal agreements between biological parents and the host family. Also, I just remembered the proper term anak angkat, literally 'pick-up child'.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by eldin raigmore »

Creyeditor wrote: 04 Feb 2022 08:54 When I think of foster care, I think of a state-certified system. This system is based purely on informal agreements between biological parents and the host family. Also, I just remembered the proper term anak angkat, literally 'pick-up child'.
Before there were modern states, fostering was often equivalent to apprenticeship; it was also often equivalent to exchange of hostages. In Ireland it was often both.
And I think it was usually mostly equivalent to guest students; (though I have nothing to back that up, just a general impression of reading).
So maybe you see why, to me, what you describe might fit under “fostering”. Apparently your mileage varies, which is fine.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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I see were you're coming from now. The anak angkat are less like exchange of hostages (marriages used to be a bit like that at some point in the past probably) or apprenticeships and more like a more permanent guest student. They are often motivated by practical concerms, like the host family living closer to a better school or general financial or health concerns.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Salmoneus »

Thanks again for doing all this; sorry for not having had more to say!
First, the Hawaiian part. All your cousins and siblings are either kakak older sibling/cousin or adek younger sibling/cousin. If you want to specify that you only talk about your parents' childrens you can soecify this as kakak kandung or adek kandung. Note that kakak/adek is also used in compounds in a wider sense that includes friends and the like. It is also a common form of address. Sometimes the Sanskrit loans saudara 'brother, male cousin' is also used to refer to distant relatives lime cousins. The female form saudari is less common, women are sometimes also refered to as saudara. Note that the Sanskrit forms are also used as a forn of address in some political contexts.
Not really related, but tangentially this idea of having two words for 'brother' reminds me of Irish. There's only one word for brother in Irish now, but it's not the ancestral PIE term. In Old Irish, bráthair could be any brother, male cousin, or other male kinsman. It still means 'brother' in Scottish Gaelic. But at some point in Irish it's become specialised to mean a religious brother - a monk, a friar, or a fellow member of a society. Instead, an actual brother is now a deartháir, literally meaning "sure/certain brother", but apparently from late Old Irish and Middle Irish actually meaning 'blood brother'. What I don't know (though I imagine someone does) is whether the blood-brother word arose just because 'brother' itself was too vague (and then the latter became specialised in its monastic sense once it was no longer needed for real relationships), or whether it arose specifically because 'brother' was being used so much in a religious context. Either way, clearly Middle Irish people felt the need to constantly be saying "no, your actual brother", because 'brother' had become used so commonly for something else. [or more generally as the Irish moved away from traditional clan structures toward modern nuclear families].

[a very similar process occured in Ancient Greek, where the inherited word for 'brother' likewise spread out to be any male clan member, and then a co-member of a social or political grouping, while a new term, "same-womb", was adopted for actual brothers. One difference, though: in Greek this only happened with brothers, whereas in Irish it happened with both brothers and sisters]

[further tangent: deartháir is an infuriating/ridiculous word, because it's not pronounced as spelled. In fact, Wiktionary lists six different pronunciations, NONE of which match the spelling. (instead they match five different wrong spellings, with various forms of irregular metathesis and length changes). Ah, Irish.]
Similarly, your mothers sister and your mother are all referred to as mama. And your father and his brother are all referred to as bapak. But here's the catch and this is where things start getting Iroquois. Your mother's brother is your om and your father's sister is your tante. Both terms are derived from Dutch and cannot be specified any further. Mama and bapak can however indicate relative age. Your mother's younger sister is your mama adek or madek for short. Similarly, your mother's older sister is your mama tua. Bapak adek ~ padek and bapak tua are used in the same way for your father's brother. Note that om and tante are also used by children and young adults to adress people from their parents generation that they don't know very closely. Madek and the like cannot be used in that function. Mama and bapak are common terms for adult men and women respectively and also used as a term of adress similar to Emglish Madam/Sir/Mister/Miss(es). For women, the Standard Indonesian form ibu is sometimes used, for men the forms are identical anyway.
Another tangent, I'm afraid: I wonder whether there are any languages that have different words for "aunt younger than ego" and "aunt older than ego" (and equivalently with uncles)? After all, in large clans, and particularly with polygamy, the situation of having members of one 'generation' be younger than those of the 'next' generation must not-infrequently arise...
Children are generally referred to as anak, independent of gender and age. Your siblings' children (i.e. nieces and nephews) are also referred to as anak. Again, biological parenthood can be indicated by adding kandung, i.e. anak kandung. In many regions, additional terns are loaned from local languages that specify more information, e.g. on gender and birth order. I also heard the term keponakan used for more distantly related nieces and nephews. However, this term is also used for distantly related cousins.
Is kandung as ungainly or rare as adding 'biological' in English? [i.e. is this a technical disambiguation method, or is it actually a common, more precise term used on a regular basis?]
Your grandparents are your nenek 'grandmother' and your kakek 'grandfather'. More basilectal forms also use the form tete 'grandfather', which is also used by children as a term of address for the christian god. Since traditional polygamy was still more common a few generations ago, I also learned the terms for your grandfather's wives that are not your grandmother. They are dependent on age/order if marriage: nenek mudah 'younger wive of your grandfather' and nenek tua 'older wive of your grandfather'. Literally they can be translated as 'young grandmother' and 'old grandmother'. Your grandchildren are referred to as cucu, again independent of age and gender.

Step-parents are generally stigmatized. The terminology can be derived by adding tiri after the terms for parents, children and siblings. They are not usually added to more complex kinship terms. Adoption is common and not usually indicated in speech, except by contrasting it against kandung 'biological'. There is also a looser form of adoption, where children still keep their biological parents but go and live with some other family who pays for their education. This is common, especially inside larger 'clan'-like structures, and children are often terminologically integrated into their host family as well as their biological family.
I would agree that this could loosely be called 'fostering' in English, since it's what fostering traditionally was. However, you're right that I wouldn't call it "foster care", a neologism that is narrower in meaning. [for this reason I might not call it 'fostering' at all in the context of describing specifical relationships between individuals to someone unfamiliar with the local system, though I probably would call it 'fostering' in a more anthropological context, if that makes sense.] [diachronically, modern 'foster care' is essentially a euphemism for wardship, by comparing wardship to traditional fostering, that has ironically largely now overshadowed the original meaning that it was relying on for its euphemism...]

[the older sense is still sometimes found colloquially in the sense of the word "foster-father", which is often much broader than the modern technical sense of a paternal guardian in a system of foster care]

[incidentally, similar relationships, not called fostering to my knowledge, were actually common in English society in the Early Modern period (and even into the 20th century to some extent). It was not uncommon, particularly with women, for a young person to be sent to live with a relative or trusted family friend in London (and presumably to a lesser extent in other cities), for years at a time, in order to catch a husband, or at least pick up some of the education or social experience that might help them catch a local husband when she returned to the country. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, a combination of railway commuting and the rise of the respectable middle-class boarding house and landlady largely did away with the need for such procedures.
Something I just learned recently puzzled me a bit. Your cousin's grandchildren are your cucu and you are their nenek/kakek. I guess it makes sense from some perspective, but it was surprising for me at least.
This seems logical, and I was actually going to ask that question two paragraphs ago just to confirm, before I saw you say that.

If your mother and your mother's sister are both mama, then you'd expect your grandmother and grandmother's sister to both be your nenek. And likewise, if no distinction is made between a sibling and a cousin, then your grandmother's cousin should still be your grandmother. Relatedly: are your mother's cousins also your mama?

And more general musing: how much of the similarity to Indo-European kin terms is influence, and how much is the coincidence of babytalk...
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10 Thanks again for doing all this; sorry for not having had more to say!
Thank you for your long answer actually.
Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10
First, the Hawaiian part. All your cousins and siblings are either kakak older sibling/cousin or adek younger sibling/cousin. If you want to specify that you only talk about your parents' childrens you can soecify this as kakak kandung or adek kandung. Note that kakak/adek is also used in compounds in a wider sense that includes friends and the like. It is also a common form of address. Sometimes the Sanskrit loans saudara 'brother, male cousin' is also used to refer to distant relatives lime cousins. The female form saudari is less common, women are sometimes also refered to as saudara. Note that the Sanskrit forms are also used as a forn of address in some political contexts.

Not really related, but tangentially this idea of having two words for 'brother' reminds me of Irish. There's only one word for brother in Irish now, but it's not the ancestral PIE term. In Old Irish, bráthair could be any brother, male cousin, or other male kinsman. It still means 'brother' in Scottish Gaelic. But at some point in Irish it's become specialised to mean a religious brother - a monk, a friar, or a fellow member of a society. Instead, an actual brother is now a deartháir, literally meaning "sure/certain brother", but apparently from late Old Irish and Middle Irish actually meaning 'blood brother'. What I don't know (though I imagine someone does) is whether the blood-brother word arose just because 'brother' itself was too vague (and then the latter became specialised in its monastic sense once it was no longer needed for real relationships), or whether it arose specifically because 'brother' was being used so much in a religious context. Either way, clearly Middle Irish people felt the need to constantly be saying "no, your actual brother", because 'brother' had become used so commonly for something else. [or more generally as the Irish moved away from traditional clan structures toward modern nuclear families].

[a very similar process occured in Ancient Greek, where the inherited word for 'brother' likewise spread out to be any male clan member, and then a co-member of a social or political grouping, while a new term, "same-womb", was adopted for actual brothers. One difference, though: in Greek this only happened with brothers, whereas in Irish it happened with both brothers and sisters]
Indonesian varieties seem to not be the only language that developed new terms for siblings. I think the main difference between the cases that you mentioned and Indonesian is the meaning of the new terms. In Irish and Ancient Greek the new term was for siblings proper, whereas in Papua Indonesian the Sanskrit loans are used for more distant relationships.

Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10
Similarly, your mothers sister and your mother are all referred to as mama. And your father and his brother are all referred to as bapak. But here's the catch and this is where things start getting Iroquois. Your mother's brother is your om and your father's sister is your tante. Both terms are derived from Dutch and cannot be specified any further. Mama and bapak can however indicate relative age. Your mother's younger sister is your mama adek or madek for short. Similarly, your mother's older sister is your mama tua. Bapak adek ~ padek and bapak tua are used in the same way for your father's brother. Note that om and tante are also used by children and young adults to adress people from their parents generation that they don't know very closely. Madek and the like cannot be used in that function. Mama and bapak are common terms for adult men and women respectively and also used as a term of adress similar to Emglish Madam/Sir/Mister/Miss(es). For women, the Standard Indonesian form ibu is sometimes used, for men the forms are identical anyway.
Another tangent, I'm afraid: I wonder whether there are any languages that have different words for "aunt younger than ego" and "aunt older than ego" (and equivalently with uncles)? After all, in large clans, and particularly with polygamy, the situation of having members of one 'generation' be younger than those of the 'next' generation must not-infrequently arise...
The situation arises frequently but it is still considered unusual. You can be in your early twenties and be a nenek to someone before even having kids of your own. This means that you are considerably younger than someone of the next generation.
As for terminology, local Papuan languages do not have these, as far as I know. They do have birth order names though.
Edit: I just recalled that I heard your roughly same-age om can be called your om kecil 'small uncle' humorously. Incidentally, that's also what I would use in German: kleiner Onkel.
Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10
Children are generally referred to as anak, independent of gender and age. Your siblings' children (i.e. nieces and nephews) are also referred to as anak. Again, biological parenthood can be indicated by adding kandung, i.e. anak kandung. In many regions, additional terns are loaned from local languages that specify more information, e.g. on gender and birth order. I also heard the term keponakan used for more distantly related nieces and nephews. However, this term is also used for distantly related cousins.
Is kandung as ungainly or rare as adding 'biological' in English? [i.e. is this a technical disambiguation method, or is it actually a common, more precise term used on a regular basis?]
It is definitly far more common than 'biological', but I would say that it is less common than ambiguation between 'daughter' and 'son' in English.

Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10
Your grandparents are your nenek 'grandmother' and your kakek 'grandfather'. More basilectal forms also use the form tete 'grandfather', which is also used by children as a term of address for the christian god. Since traditional polygamy was still more common a few generations ago, I also learned the terms for your grandfather's wives that are not your grandmother. They are dependent on age/order if marriage: nenek mudah 'younger wive of your grandfather' and nenek tua 'older wive of your grandfather'. Literally they can be translated as 'young grandmother' and 'old grandmother'. Your grandchildren are referred to as cucu, again independent of age and gender.

Step-parents are generally stigmatized. The terminology can be derived by adding tiri after the terms for parents, children and siblings. They are not usually added to more complex kinship terms. Adoption is common and not usually indicated in speech, except by contrasting it against kandung 'biological'. There is also a looser form of adoption, where children still keep their biological parents but go and live with some other family who pays for their education. This is common, especially inside larger 'clan'-like structures, and children are often terminologically integrated into their host family as well as their biological family.
I would agree that this could loosely be called 'fostering' in English, since it's what fostering traditionally was. However, you're right that I wouldn't call it "foster care", a neologism that is narrower in meaning. [for this reason I might not call it 'fostering' at all in the context of describing specifical relationships between individuals to someone unfamiliar with the local system, though I probably would call it 'fostering' in a more anthropological context, if that makes sense.] [diachronically, modern 'foster care' is essentially a euphemism for wardship, by comparing wardship to traditional fostering, that has ironically largely now overshadowed the original meaning that it was relying on for its euphemism...]

[the older sense is still sometimes found colloquially in the sense of the word "foster-father", which is often much broader than the modern technical sense of a paternal guardian in a system of foster care]

[incidentally, similar relationships, not called fostering to my knowledge, were actually common in English society in the Early Modern period (and even into the 20th century to some extent). It was not uncommon, particularly with women, for a young person to be sent to live with a relative or trusted family friend in London (and presumably to a lesser extent in other cities), for years at a time, in order to catch a husband, or at least pick up some of the education or social experience that might help them catch a local husband when she returned to the country. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, a combination of railway commuting and the rise of the respectable middle-class boarding house and landlady largely did away with the need for such procedures.
Maybe 'fostering' is actually a good term. Thinking about a German term, I would probably use 'Ziehvater' etc., but not 'Pflegevater', which are not distinguished in English, AFAIK.
Some additional information: anak angkat often join the host family before primary school (approx. age 5) or before secondary school (approx. age 12). Some chose to stay with their host family after finishing school, some move back to their biological parents and some move out to live on their own.


Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10
Something I just learned recently puzzled me a bit. Your cousin's grandchildren are your cucu and you are their nenek/kakek. I guess it makes sense from some perspective, but it was surprising for me at least.
This seems logical, and I was actually going to ask that question two paragraphs ago just to confirm, before I saw you say that.

If your mother and your mother's sister are both mama, then you'd expect your grandmother and grandmother's sister to both be your nenek. And likewise, if no distinction is made between a sibling and a cousin, then your grandmother's cousin should still be your grandmother. Relatedly: are your mother's cousins also your mama?
I should have been clearer. Any cousin's grandchildren call you nenek not just your parent's same-sex sibling's children. That's surprising to me because the distinction seems to be neutralized here. But maybe that's not so surprising after all, since the distinction mostly holds for your parent's generation and is neutralized for your cousins anyway.

I actually don't know for sure if your mother's cousin is your mama, but I guess so.
Salmoneus wrote: 05 Feb 2022 21:10 And more general musing: how much of the similarity to Indo-European kin terms is influence, and how much is the coincidence of babytalk...
I tried to search for all terms that I mentioned.
Kakak and adek are both Austronesian, though kakak is influenced by Hokkien
Saudara/Saudari are from Sanskrit.
Mama could be Portuguese, Dutch, baby-talk or from some other Austronesian language, there is really no easy way to tell I think. Papua Indonesian is different from Standard Indonesian (ibu) and several other varieties (e.g. bunda on Java).
Bapak is Malayo-Polynesian at least.
Om/Tante are from Dutch.
Anak is Austronesian.
Keponakan looks Austronesian to me.
Nenek/kakek I would guess are at least Malayo-Polynesian.
Tete doesn't look too Malayo-Polynesian to me. It could be either baby-talk or derived from a local language. Ternate seems to share the same root.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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Pronouns and negation are interesting to me because varieties of Indonesian vary a lot with regards to these topics, to the point where speakers refer to varieties by the pronouns used for the first and second person (e.g. sa-ko vs. aku-kamu vs. gue-lu). These differences are not just in form but also in the structure of the pronoun system. Keep in mind that most people speak at least two varieties, so these systems can co-occur or mix-and-match for many people.

Let's start with Papua Indonesian. In Papua Indonesian, many pronouns have two forms, where the long form occurs only under focus, IINM. I include dual forms here, even though they are multi-word expressions, because their composition is not always transparent and they are very frequent. Some plural pronouns on the other hand include a suffix -ong or -orang derived from the word orang person, people, similar to Tok Pisin fella PL. Second person pronouns are not used in every context we would expect them in, because titles and kinship terms can often function as pronouns here, e.g. mama, bapak, tante, om, nenek. Negation is done by tra. Note that there is still some variation within Papua Indonesian and I am not claiming that this pronoun system is the ultimate truth.

1SG: sa ~ saya
2SG: ko ~ koi
3SG: de ~ dia
1DU: kita dua
2DU: kam dua
3DU: dong dua
1PL: tong ~ kitong
2PL: kam ~ kalian
3PL: dong ~ dorang
NEG: tra

Standard Indonesian, as taught in Indonesian classes, has a very different pronoun system. Even though some pronouns have a short and a long form, short forms mostly appear as possessor or object clitics. There are also politeness distinctions incorporated here. These are very different in use for different persons. Whereas saya 1SG.POL is used in some contexts, such as politicians speeches and the like, anda 2SG.POL is very rare, except when foreigners learn Indonesian. As mentioned above, politeness is expressed in most varieties of Indonesian by referring to the hearer with titles or kinship terms. The third person polite pronoun beliau 3SG.POL is very rare and mostly used for very high-ranking officials, though I have heard a woman referring to her ex-husband using beliau 3SG.POL on TV. Note that there is also a inclusive-exclusive distinction in the first person plural pronoun that is not found in Papua Indonesian or colloquial Jakarta Indonesian for that matter. Negation is usually tidak.

1.SG.IMPOL: aku ~ ku
1SG.POL: saya
2SG.IMPOL: kamu ~ mu
2SG.POL: anda
3SG.IMPOL: dia ~ nya
1PL.INCL: kita
1PL.EXCL: kami
2PL: kalian
3PL: mereka
NEG: tidak

Colloquial Jakarta Indonesian has borrowed its first and second singular pronouns from Southern Chinese languages. Second and third person forms do not neccesarily have a proper plural form, so I include them without number specifications here. Colloquial Jakarta Indonesian does not distinguish inclusive vs. exclusive pronouns and uses kita 1PL for both. The different versions of pronouns are mostly variation between speakers, except for the third person pronoun where dia 3SG is the default form, but nya has a variety of uses. Apart from occuring as a possessor and an object clitic it can also mark definitness on noun phrases. The negation has a prenasalized velar stop in its initial position, which exists in Colloquial Jakarta Indonesian but not in the other two varieties mentioned. Orthographically, it has variant gak.

1SG: gua~gue
1PL: kita
2. elu ~ lu
3. dia ~ nya
NEG: nggak
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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Just wanted to share this interesting tidbit of Indonesian morphosyntax, that I came across recently. Standard Indonesian has a phrasal nominalizing circumfix ke--an. It usually derives abstracts nouns from simple roots.

(1) keadilan
ke-adil-an
NMLZR-just-NMLZR
'justice'

It can however also attach to a negated root, which form two words. The first part ke- attaches to the negation tidak and the second part -an attaches to the root adil. Interestingly, the expression still consists of two words, at least phonologically, because word-final debuccalization applies to /k/ in /tidak/.

(2) ketidakadilanketidak-adilanketidak adilan
ke-tidak adil-an
NMLZR-NEG justice-NMLZR
'injustice'

Recently, I noticed that more complex words can also be nominalized. One of the most complex examples is the following which includes a negated prefixed compound verb as the base of circumfixation. (ber- is a verbalizer/voice prefix that is often translated as 'have').

(3) ketidak bertanggungjawaban≈etc,etc
ke-tidak ber-tanggung-jawab-an
NMLZR-NEG MID-care-answer-NMLZR
'irresponsibility'

I hope this makes sense and is at least slightly interesting for you as conlangers.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Sequor »

Here's a new question for you: what do you think about stress in Indonesian? Is there a noticeable stress? Are there morphophonological rules to predict it (what are they)?

My remote understanding is that this topic is a bit controversial...?
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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I think it is controversial [:D]
My more detailed opinion is that acoustic stress in Standard Indonesian is heavily influenced by the other varieties/languages people speak. Different Indonesian varieties already vastly differ in prosody. Some might have fixed, weight-dependent or lexical word stress, whereas others have only phrasal stress. Acoustically, this yields a pitch peak towards the right edge of a word or a phrase for most speakers of Standard Indonesian.
Due to the variation between speakers, word stress probably plays no role in perception.

I should probably compose a more detailed post and compare a few varieties.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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Creyeditor wrote: 22 Jun 2022 08:29I should probably compose a more detailed post and compare a few varieties.
I would appreciate that. Even just a presentation on your opinion on the capital's more prestigious dialect would be interesting for me.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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Stress in Standard Indonesian

There are at least three different descriptions of stress in Standard Indonesian. I think there is no reason to assume that any of them is wrong, so I will quickly summarize all three of them and give information about the speakers that the studies where based on. In my personal oppinion, all three descriptions are probably correct for some set of speakers of Standard Indonesian. I will stay away from saying anything about Jakarta Indonesian because it's the most variable, divergent, and evolving context. As for transcription, I will use an unholy union of ortography and IPA, where everything is as in orthography, except that Schwas are in IPA, pitch is written with tone marks and the stress sign indicates intensity.

1. Penultimate Syllable Word Stress
The work by Cohen (probably with Batak speakers) describes Indonesian as having default primary stress on the penultimate syllable of the word (cf. 1) with two clear exceptions. Schwas cannot be stressed (cf. 2) and prefixes cannot be stressed (cf. 3). There is also a complex secondary stress, cf. (4). Phonetic correlates of stress are pitch and intensity but not duration. Its phonetic correlates seem to vary between speakers, affecting either duration or intensity.

(1) Penultimate stress
a. 'másak
cook
`to cook'
b. ma'sák-an
cook-NMLZR
`dish, meal'
c. masa'k-án=ku
cook-NMLZR=1SG
`my dish, my meal'
d. 'cari
search
`to search'
e. men-ca'ri-kan
ACT-search-APPL
`to search for'
f. mencari-'kán=nya
ACT-search-APPL=3SG
`to search for it'

(2) Unstressable Schwa
a. bəˈsár
big
`big'
b. səˈríŋ
often
`often'
c. aˈpártəmen
appartment
`appartment'

(3) Unstressable prefixes
a. 'cát
paint
`to paint'
b. di-'cat
PASS-paint
`painted'
c. 'tik
type
`to type'
d. di-'tik
PASS-typ
`typed'

(4) Secondary stress
a. məm-biˌcara-ˈkán=nya
ACT-speak-APPL=3SG
`to speak about it'
b. ˌmasyaˈrakat
society
`society'
c. mən-ˌcari-ˈkan=nya
ACT-search-APPL=3SG
`to search for it'
d. ˌkontinuaˈsí=nya
continuation=3SG
`its continuation'


2. Penultimate syllable phrasal stress

A study by Halim included speakers if Standard Indonesian from South Sumatra. He describes stress as occuring on the penultimate syllable of a phonological phrase and only consisting of higher pitch, but not duration. Pitch is high on the penultimate of a intonational phrase and low on its final syllable, cf. (5a). Non-final phonological phrases end with a high-toned syllable, cf. (5b,c), unless stressed due to focus (5d). After a focused phonological phrase, no further stress can occur in the intonational phrase, cf. (5d).

(5) phrase accents on penultimate sylable
a. māū mīnūm kópì
want drink coffee
'I want to drink coffee.'
b. kōpī īní māsīh pánàs
coffee this still hot
'This coffee is still hot.'
c. kōpi kēmārín mērēkā mínùm
coffee yesterday they drink
'As for yesterday's coffee, they drank it.'
d. māsih pánàs kōpì ìnì.
still hot coffe this
'This coffee is STILL HOT.'

3. Right-oriented phrasal stress
There is work by van Zanten et al. mainly focussing on Javanese speakers of Standard Indonesian. They conclude that there is no word stress, only phrasal accent. This phrasal accent is not aligned with any particular syllable but oriented towards the right of a phrase. It correlates with a rise followed by fall in pitch. The rise starts on the final word and the falling pitch mostly occurs on either the final or the penultimate syllable, without any clear conditioning. In the following examples, stress is only mark for the target word derived from anak `child'.

(6) phrase-final position
a. Dia meng-ucap-kan kata ânàk.
3SG ACT-say-APPL word child
'He pronounces the word child.'
b. Dia meng-ucap-kan kata ánâk=nyà.
3SG ACT-say-APPL word child=3SG
'he prounces the word his child'
c. Dia meng-ucap-kan kata ánák~ânàk.
3SG ACT-say-APPL word child~PL
'He pronounces the word children.'

(7) phrase medial position
a. Kata ānāk itu tepat.
word child that fit
'The word child fits.'
b. Kata ānāk=nyā itu tepat.
word child=3SG that fit
'The word his child fits.'
c. Kata ānāk~ānāk itu tepat.
word child~PL that fit
'The word children fits.'

Edit: P.S.: Interestingly, this variation seems to correlate with the general prosodic typology of Austronesian languages, where phrasal-only systems are attested in and around Java, word-stress and phrasal stress systems are attested elsewhere.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Sequor »

Thanks for the write-up! Good to have an idea on the variation that has been published on this.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Creyeditor »

Here is another post on a topic that came up when discussing symmetrical voice systems.

Applicatives and Causatives

I will discuss these together since in many dialects these two partially overlap, i.e. they are expresed by the same suffix in some cases. In general, these can be combined with both the active voice and the passive voice prefixes.

Standard Indonesian
Standard Indonesian has two suffixes that indicate voice: -kan and -i. -kan can introduce benefactive objects.

Saya mem-baca buku buat dia.
1SG ACT-read book for 3SG
'I read a book for her.'

Saya mem-baca-kan dia buku.
1SG ACT-read-APPL 3SG book
'I read her a book.'

-kan can however also be used to derive a causative form of a verb. The choice between the two meanings is lexically conditioned as far as I know.

Saya bangun jam enam pagi.
1SG wake_up hour six morning
'I wake up at six in the morning.'

Bangun-kan saya jam enam pagi!
wake_up-CAUS 1SG hour six morning
'Wake me up at six in the morning.'

The second suffix -i derives locative applocative forms. These are semantically hard to distinguish from -kan-applicatives in some cases and I suspect that there is some lexical idiosyncracy involved here, too.

Saya duduk di atas kursi.
1SG sit LOC top chair
'I sit on a chair.'

Saya men-duduk-i kursi.
1SG sit ACT-sit-APPL chair
'I sit on a chair.'

Sometimes it looks as if -i can also derive causative forms. It might very well be that the base is more noun-like in some cases.

Bertemuan ber-akhir jam enam.
meeting MID-end hour six
'The meeting ends at six.'

Saya meng-akhir-i bertemuan sekarang.
1SG ACT-end-CAUS meeting now
'I am ending the meeting now.'

Something that I always found interesting is that arguments that are introduced by applicatives can be freely dropped. This is even more prominent in colloquial varieties but also common in Standard Indonesian. The dropped argument can usually be infered from context.

Ayo, saya baca-kan buku.
come_on, 1SG read-APPL book
'Come on, I will read [you/him/her/them] a book.'

Colloquial Jakarta/Java Indonesian
One suffix takes up the task in this variety: -in. It is very common, even more so than in Standard Indonesian. It often occurs without any overt arguments at all.

Ya, udah, gua yang masak-in.
Yes, already, 1SG REL cook-APPL
Okay, then I will cook [it for you].

Papua Indonesian
Just like some other voice prefixes, the voice suffix -kan is mostly lexicalized and not productive in Papua Indonesian. It can have both a causative and an applicative interpretation. The causative can also be produtively formed by a periphrastic construction involving the verb kas(ih) 'to give'.

Dia jatu.
3SG fall
'She fell.'

Sa kas jatu dia.
1SG give fall 3SG
'I pushed her to the ground.'

This construction is highly productive and does not involve lexical idiosyncracies.

Sa kasih duduk anak di kursi.
1SG give sit child LOC chair
'I sat the child down on a chair.'
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Creyeditor »

So, here is another tidbit that I found cool and that David Gil recently mentioned in some slides. Which reminded me that I wanted to make a post about it for some time.

Gap Questions in Papua Indonesian
In the eastern dialects of Papua Indonesian, spoken in the eastern part of the former former province of Papua, or throughout the former province of Papua, or throughout the new provinces of Papua, Central Papua and Highlands Papua (it's hard to keep track for me), one main strategy for forming content questions is gapping. This means that there is no overt interrogative pronoun. Instead, a certain intonation is used that lengthens the final syllable and places a level high pitch on it. I will notate this as "_?"

Ko ke _?
2SG to
Where are you going to?

Ko makan _?
2SG eat
What are you eating?

There can be minimal pairs with polar questions, which are only differentiated by intonation. Polar questions don't have final lengthening and they end in a rising pitch contour.

Ko makan?
2SG eat
Are you eating?

Ko makan _?
2SG eat
What are you eating?

The gap is restricted to appear at the right edge of a content question. This might be a syntactic or prosodic constraint. This also means that a gap question can start with an adverb but not end with one. An additional consequence is that you cannot ask for an agent unless you use a passive construction.

Kemarin ko di _?
yesterday 2SG to
Where were you yesterday?

*Ko ke _ kemarin?
2SG to yesterday

Ko dapat pukul sama _?
2SG get beat with
Who did you get beaten up by?

*_ pukul ko?
beat 2SG

This construction in itself is interesting but probably not unique at all. What I find fascinating is that this seems to be the default way to ask content questions (even though there are other strategies that use interrogative pronouns ). If you meet a friend on the street, the first two questions might be Ko ke _? and Ko dari _? asking where you're heading and where you're coming from. If you are talking on the phone, people often start out by asking Ko di _? inquiring where you are at right now. I don't have actual frequency data but it feels like this is much more common than in other languages that I know of.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Omzinesý »

Have you already handled Indonesian phonotactics. Syllables seem to be (C)V(C), but are there restrictions in coda?

You mentioned Arabic word waktu but is it phonotactically exceptional?
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

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The next post will be on vowels but the one after that will be on syllable structure and or phonotactics.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Salmoneus »

Creyeditor wrote: 14 Aug 2022 00:18 This construction in itself is interesting but probably not unique at all.
I don't know if you did this intentionally, but it amuses me how (most of this) is literally word-for-word true of English as well!
one main strategy for forming content questions is gapping. This means that there is no overt interrogative pronoun. Instead, a certain intonation is used that lengthens the final syllable and places a level high pitch on it. I will notate this as "_?"

Ko ke _?
2SG to
Where are you going to?
You go (to) ...?
Ko makan _?
2SG eat
What are you eating?
You eat ...?

Admittedly, the default interpretation of the simple verb in English is habitual, and for the meanings you want we'd usually have to convert the verb into the progressive: "you're going (to) ...?", "you're eating ...?". Also, Indonesian seems to be able to do away with the verb of motion more easily - although English does have a very common construction that uses an adverb instead: "you're off to ...?"

[In English, it's polite to preface this form of question with some sort of connecting element - "so" or "and" or the like; otherwise you risk sounding a bit like an official filling out a form. But it's still very common even without the connecting element]

And yes, in English as in Indonesian, the gapping strategy is accompanied by a distinct intonation pattern that includes marked lengthening of the final syllable. Although in the English I hear, it's more common for the final pitch (which spreads back to the last stressed syllable) to be level, with the additional raising of the final pitch usually reserved for the implication that the questioner may have already been told the answer but has forgotten (or is politely pretending to have forgotten in order to deflect blame from the interlocutor). But I think that may vary with dialect.
There can be minimal pairs with polar questions, which are only differentiated by intonation. Polar questions don't have final lengthening and they end in a rising pitch contour.

Ko makan?
2SG eat
Are you eating?

Ko makan _?
2SG eat
What are you eating?
Likewise in English. "You're eating ...?" has a level or gently rising intonation and a lengthened final syllable, whereas "you('re) eating?" has no lengthening and has a sharp rising in the final word (the penultimate syllable often even dips a little to emphasise the final rise). [the "'re" is often dropped with genuine polar questions, but is usually retained when the question is rhetorical]
The gap is restricted to appear at the right edge of a content question. This might be a syntactic or prosodic constraint. This also means that a gap question can start with an adverb but not end with one. An additional consequence is that you cannot ask for an agent unless you use a passive construction.

Kemarin ko di _?
yesterday 2SG to
Where were you yesterday?

*Ko ke _ kemarin?
2SG to yesterday

Ko dapat pukul sama _?
2SG get beat with
Who did you get beaten up by?

*_ pukul ko?
beat 2SG
Exactly the same in English. The gap must be final, which means you can start with an adverb but not finish with one: "yesterday you were ...?", but not *"you were ... yesterday?"

And similarly, you cannot ask for an agent unless you use a passive construction: *".... beat you up?", but "you were beaten up by ...?"
What I find fascinating is that this seems to be the default way to ask content questions (even though there are other strategies that use interrogative pronouns ).
I don't THINK it's the default in English, but it's hard to really know, because it's rarely used in writing (or formal speech).
If you meet a friend on the street, the first two questions might be Ko ke _? and Ko dari _? asking where you're heading and where you're coming from.
English people generally care less about geography. But it's certainly not uncommon to have a "so you're heading ...?" near the beginning or end of a conversation.
If you are talking on the phone, people often start out by asking Ko di _? inquiring where you are at right now.
I don't do this. I'd be more likely to use a wh-question. My impression is that in English this construction is extremely common but less so in phatic inquiries or context-less inquiries - more so in actual questions specific to the context. So I would say "where are you?" as a general question, but if somebody actually asked me directions, or asked if I would be joining them or the like, then I'd use "so right now you're ...?" or the like.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Sequor »

I can also attest people ask questions in similar ways, with a similar intonation pattern, in Spanish.

¿Así que vas a...?
'So you're going to...?'

Although I assume the most interesting part is that this is the standard way of asking things in Papua Indonesian, lacking interrogative pronouns/adverbs? (Or just not using them that much?)
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Creyeditor »

The phonology section was still missing a post on vowels. I noticed this when adding a table of contents to the first post. So here is is [:)]

Vowels in Indonesian

Vowels in Indonesian are surprisingly stable. Different varieties have between three and six monopthongs.

1. Standard Indonesian
There are six monophtongal phonemes in Standard Indonesian, the standard five vowel system plus a schwa.

/i u/
/e ə o/
/a/

The shwa is special in that it is ortographically merged with /e/ into <e> and in that it usually does not bear stress. Mid and high vowels alternate between tense and lax allophones depending on stress, syllable structure and surrounding vowels. Tense vowels are generally found in stressed and/or open syllables whereas lax vowels are restricted to close and/or unstressed syllables or occur close to other lax vowels. There is generally a lot of variation and idiosyncasis here from my experience.

pohon
[pohɔn]
/ˈpo.hon/
'tree'

pintar
[pɪntar]
/ˈpin.tar/
'smart'

Diphthongs and hiatus are a strange thing. Indonesian has /ai/, /ei/, /oi/, /au/ in open syllables, eg. mau /mau/ 'want', mei /mei/ 'May', pakai /pa.kai/, 'wear', toilet /toi.let/. If these vowels would occur in closed syllables, they are supposed to be pronounced as vowels in hiatus, e.g. laut /la.ut/ 'sea', air /a.ir/ 'water'. The phonetic difference is that the second vowel is more centralized in open syllables than in potentially closed syllables. The difference is less prominent in the speech that I have heard. In some cases it looks like [w] and [j] are also used to optionally resolve hiatus, such as in the word bayi /ba.ji/ 'baby'.

2. Papua Indonesian
Papua Indonesian is easily identifiable because there is no schwa. In the east cognates are pronounced with /e/ instead, in the west with /a/. I will focus on the eastern variety, because I am more familiar with it. The decentralization of schwa leads to some weird interactions with stress that phonologists don't seem to fully understand yet. Instead of the expected stress-repelling status of schwa-derived [e], it seems that this very sound is stress-attracting in some cases.

besar
PI: [be.sar]
SI: [bə.sar]
'big'

sering
PI: [se.rɪŋ]
SI: [sə.rɪŋ]
'often'

Additionally, some sporadic monophthongization takes place such that cognates have /o/ and /e/ instead of /au/ and /ai/, e.g. /mo/ 'want', /pa.ke/ 'wear'.

3. Varieties spoken on Java and in Jakarta
I only mention tgis briefly because the resulting vowel system seems unexpected from a typological point of view. Some varieties in Java consistently monophthongize all diphthongs into lax high vowels. This already reduces the number of contrasting vowels.

pakai
SI: [pa.kai]
JI: [pakɪ]
'wear'

mau
SI: [mau]
JI: [mʊ]
'want'

Additionally, mid vowels and high vowels in Standard Indonesian correpond to lax high vowels to in these varieties. I am not really sure if this is an innovation or a retention.

tidur
SI: [ti.dur]
JI: [tɪ.dʊr]
'sleep'

kopi
SI: [ko.pi]
JI: [kʊ.pɪ]

This leaves these varieties of Indonesian spoken on Java with the unusual four vowel system /a ɪ ʊ ə/, that only includes lax vowels and no tense (high) vowels at all.
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Re: AMA on Indonesian

Post by Creyeditor »

@Sequor, Sal: Just for clarification. Papua Indonesian has interrogative pronouns, they are just used much less often and in less contexts. Gapped questiona are definitely used in out-of-the-blue contexts. Maybe I somewhat underestimated the frequency and flexibility of gap questions in English because they are even less common in German. And Papua Indonesian speakers care a lot about geography.
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