The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Salmoneus
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

A Nanowrimo update: it's going well!

I have so far written.... 1,600-ish words.


...ok, so it's going well compared to my usual nanowrimo process. [which is broadly: think all year, "I should do nanowrimo this year!"; think on the 1st of November "I should think of an idea for nanowrimo"; then think on the 20th of November or so, "oh well, too late this time, maybe next year".]

And for context: I'm not actually trying to write a novel this time. I thought I'd set my sights a little lower and just write a short story (albeit a story that could easily turn into a novel if I'm not careful).


My difficulties with this story - aside from the usual problems I face of laziness, procrastination, lack of imagination and the absence of talent or skill - are broadly twofold.

Firstly, there's the plot. I know, more or less, where the story is going. But it's the sort of story that gradually builds unease, rather than one that goes like a rollercoaster. Which makes it difficult for me to work out what's actually meant to happen, in the first half of the story in particular: something needs to happen, or else it's just boring, but not too much can happen YET, or else the mounting unease is replaced by a shock twist much too early. [it's kind of a horror story - not a terror story, but a horror story. It has the sort of structure of those old Victorian ghost stories: disconcerting, but with the plot only becoming clear in the later stages (if at all). I don't want to go too far in the Lovecraft direction and bring out the eldritch tentacles and gibbering madmen (or the equivalent) too soon... but on the other hand, those old stories are often hard to read now precisely because for much of their length, nothing really happens...]

And then there's the prose. My writing is orotund at the best of times, and this has to be written in a particularly old-fashioned style (not only is it an intentionally old-fashioned story, but it's a first-person narration by someone who is broadly 'Victorian' in era and demeanour). There's a LOT of semicolons and colons and parenthetical tangents mid-sentence; this doesn't necessarily not come naturally to me, but even I have to sort of get into the swing of it, and I don't find it easy to just pick up and put down. And it tends to make it all sound boring, and it encourages me to go on and on and on... on the one hand, I like this, as I like that old-fashioned, deliberative aesthetic, and it lets me really explore the images and ideas that I have at length; and yet, on the other - and not, sadly, the less compelling - hand, it makes everything really boring and longwinded, and the reader is likely to forget the beginning of each though before I leave its tangents and conclude it. So I'm sort of constantly having to war between authenticity and clarity on the one hand, and the need to keep things on track by - more or less - the standards of a contemporary reader (including my own patience) on the other.

So yeah, it's not going easily.


background:
Spoiler:
I probably began this story about a decade ago. I've written something like 20 versions of the first paragraph, and a dozen verions of the first page. The longest draft goes up to about 12,000 words, and the fact that I still really like some of it is why I've never just thrown the idea away. But I know that I need to cut a huge tranche of that draft (which at 12k has barely gotten going, even though the whole thing really ought to be no more than a short novella, if not a long novelette), and substantially rework the rest - to the point where I'd prefer to just re-write from scratch (but guided by the existing draft when I get to the good bits). This time, I've tried to shortcut my usual endless deliberations and rewrites by skipping the first scene (the story is mostly told in short scenes of 1,000-2,000 words, in theory, divided by section breaks and jumps in time or changes in subject-matter, somewhat in the manner of diary entries, though not officially such) and and starting from the second. Which is daunting in its own right, since it's basically a preemptive geography lesson, mixed with an apology for the existence of the first scene. But having gotten through that probably about as well as I could have expected, I'm now daunted by having to jump back into the action again...

Why am I explaining all this? Mostly to give myself an excuse to avoid writing, obviously (why do I ever do anything!?). But also in theory in the vain hope that sometimes talking about these things helps bring breakthroughs, or at least steels the mettle somewhat...
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

Egerius wrote: 22 Nov 2020 18:50I've been writing about a dozen short stories, adding bits of lore to my Úrageard conworld (still no coherent magic system [:'(] )
First, thanks for the Commodore Update! I haven't paid any attention to Discord in a long time and quite lost track of your noble quest to revive the old machine. I'm glad it's working so well!

As for your writing, I can only hope you'll condescend to share some of them, along with any Úrageard lore here with us! I'd love to read some stories, anyway!
Salmoneus wrote: 22 Nov 2020 22:53 A Nanowrimo update: it's going well!

I have so far written.... 1,600-ish words.


And then there's the prose. My writing is orotund at the best of times, and this has to be written in a particularly old-fashioned style (not only is it an intentionally old-fashioned story, but it's a first-person narration by someone who is broadly 'Victorian' in era and demeanour). There's a LOT of semicolons and colons and parenthetical tangents mid-sentence; this doesn't necessarily not come naturally to me, but even I have to sort of get into the swing of it, and I don't find it easy to just pick up and put down. And it tends to make it all sound boring, and it encourages me to go on and on and on... on the one hand, I like this, as I like that old-fashioned, deliberative aesthetic, and it lets me really explore the images and ideas that I have at length; and yet, on the other - and not, sadly, the less compelling - hand, it makes everything really boring and longwinded, and the reader is likely to forget the beginning of each though before I leave its tangents and conclude it. So I'm sort of constantly having to war between authenticity and clarity on the one hand, and the need to keep things on track by - more or less - the standards of a contemporary reader (including my own patience) on the other.

So yeah, it's not going easily.

Same: I'd like to see some of this Victorian orotundivity!, if you'd care to show us some. I've read some of your work in the past and enjoyed it. I haven't written any stories of late, so I'm beating you at the procrastination game. It's good to hear you're progressing though!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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I was trying to avoid thinking about “real world things”, so I ended up looking at Lexember stuff. I ended up really swamped with stuff this month and couldn’t even vaguely think of writing about anything, but because December’s coming up I realized that I have no idea what I’m gonna do for Lexember. I want to continue on last year’s tradition of putting new Sardinian words, and hopefully writing some sentences in Sardinian as well, but Sngdo Latu’s vocabulary is near finalized, and I’m not sure I really have the emotional capacity to think about adding words to Learran (where I didn’t even create a standard lexicon) or going back to an old project (Mysterylang? Ekupriot?) and cleaning that up. Or perhaps I could take the time to fully flesh out Uzuf Linua and make it less hacky. At the same time, I don’t want to end up doing some big pompous thing and then letting it all go to waste again, like my last set of projects. I *have* been working on Sngdo, since last December, but I’ve been very dissatisfied with my progress. I tried to make a bogolang to Old English but my computer ended up losing most of the sound change rules, so it made me feel worse. I really thought I would be spending November writing about Waxworld and the new conworld I was making, but now that we’re nearly over and I haven’t even vaguely come close to thinking about it, I feel increasingly demoralized about the upcoming month.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

Sorry you're feeling demoralized, Qwed. I'm having trouble finding creative motivation as well. I've fallen behind in the novel I'm working on and I've done almost no conlanging in the past few months. It's disappointing to think I won't participate in Lexember either, but it's looking that way so far.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Guzhiet Mathasar!
enjoy-IMPRTV thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving!

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2p spend-FUT 3s with whom
Whom are all of you going to spend it with?

Wudun is, is frashos wan hel Stan Wiri.
as_for 1s 1s spend-FUT 3s with Stan man
Me, I'm spending it with Stan Man.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by eldin raigmore »

I still don’t know what I’m going to wear to the living room today.
I might not go.



[xD]
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

eldin raigmore wrote: 26 Nov 2020 17:00 I still don’t know what I’m going to wear to the living room today.
I might not go.



[xD]
Oh, the agony of choice!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

I feel more people should point out how incredibly awful American elections are. They're almost astonishing! No wonder you have to rely on the media guessing the winner weeks or even months before the winner is actually officially determined (whereas in most countries, "calling" is basically only of interest to news channels to give them something to talk about for ten minutes before the official result).

Let's recap:

1. you have an election. The rules for this vary with the state, in some cases even with the county. In some states, the election actually lasts for weeks, or even months. The rules for the election are decided by a combination of federal rules, state rules, the whim of local officiators, and arbitrary interjections by state and federal courts. The rules can change at any time, even once the election has already started, and some details (eg about counting and 'curing' of postal votes) apparently may not even be decided until after the election has finished. And weirdly, there's a tradition that you have to queue to vote, for hours and hours or in some places even all day.

[oh, and you insist on voting in alarmingly unsafe ways. Postal voting is known to be susceptible to fraud and disenfranchisement, so having the entire population vote by post as happens in some states just seems insane. Even worse, voting in person in America usually means using a voting machine - these have had a catalogue of serious faults, can in some cases be hacked electronically, and generally cannot be fully audited, as they operate in a way that is considered a 'commercial secret'. In some states, the machines and their black-box methodologies are the only record of votes, as there are no paper ballot copies; in others there is a paper copy, but it's generated by the machine itself. Now, to be clear, it would be very hard to throw an entire Presidential election. But individual races could be, and have been, decided by fraud, and choosing intentionally the least secure methods possible is just opening yourself up not only to fraud but to the fear and perception of fraud!]

2. you count the votes. Now, in the rest of the world, this is done overnight, with perhaps one or two contentious recounts taking a day or two extra. But in America, it takes days. And then weeks. And then months! We're now almost a month after the 2020 election, and you still haven't even finished counting the votes! [four congressional seats are still being counted; Biden was 'called' as President when there were still half a dozen states that hadn't finished counting]

3. then the candidates can buy recounts. The rules vary with the state. This seems to be a money-making scheme of some kind, since you can buy recounts even when you have absolutely zero chance of the recount changing the result. Then again, some states have automatic recounts even when there's zero chance of changing the result. [statewide recounts never change the result by more than a few tens or a few hundreds of votes... but you still have them even when the margin is tens or hundreds of thousands of votes. Why!?]

4. then the results have to be certified by political party appointees in each individual county. This takes weeks, for some reason, even though it's not clear what process these appointees are meant to go through other than reading the results. [for context, the UK process is: you count the votes in a big room; the results are handed to a generally non-partisan person who stands at one end of the room with a microphone, and reads out the results. Done.]

5. then the certified results have to be certified AGAIN by political appointees at the state level. For some reason. This also takes weeks. [so that now, a month later, states are still certifying results even for the presidential election, let alone the closer or less important races]

6. then the legislature of each state must decide whether to accept the results, or to ignore them and decide their own results. This hasn't happened for a while, but remains a live option, particularly if the first five steps have taken too long (it was seriously planned in Florida in 2000, before the Supreme Court stepped in to overrule the voters directly).

7. then the results must be "ascertained" by the Governor of each state. They must do this in nonuplicate. Is nonuplicate the right word? I don't know, because other than the US electoral system nobody ever needs that word! Each copy must match.

8. then, more than a month after the election, the first phase of the election finally ends. All the voting so far has just been to select electors, who then gather together. They must then all certify in sextuplicate the certificate of the ascertainment of the certification of the certification of the votes. They then... start voting on their own officiating officials to officiate their votes. Eventually, they actually vote. In some places, they can decide on the spur of the moment who to vote for. In others, they can do this but will be punished if they defy the popular vote. In others, they are required to pledge not to defy the popular vote - in some places they can be rejected for refusing to pledge, in others they can't be - but their vote still counts. In other places, state laws purport to prevent them from defying the popular vote. All these rules vary from state to state, and all are subject to continual judicial interpretations and overrides at the state, circuit and supreme court level. [we haven't even talked about the real first stage of the election, which is nominating these 'slates' of the electors to be voted upon, and what happens if a nominated elector is subsequently prohibited or otherwise unable to vote, which is its own huge issue....]

9. after the electors have voted, they must unanimously certify their own votes. It's unclear what would happen if an elector refused to go along at this stage. They must then produce a paper copy of this certification - in sextuplicate. Again, each copy must match exactly, or else they can be called back to start again.

10. then you wait around for a month.

11. then the new federal House and Senate meet, presided over by the outgoing Vice-President (who may be a candidate for Vice-President in the election, or even a candidate for President!). Both houses then certify the certificate of votes, and the certificate of ascertainment of electors. It's not clear how they do this, or what happens if they don't. But if even a single Representative and Senator agree to challenge the vote of even one state, there has to be a full debate on that state. There are some laws around this stage, but they're probably unconstitutional. Unfortunately, since America operates on a "have a go and see what happens!" approach to legal matters, nobody ever knows what rules they should have followed until it's too late to follow them... anyway, hopefully at this state Congress is able to agree to make one candidate the President-Elect.

12. then, assuming that Congress has been able to decide on a new President-Elect - and there's a whole load of complicated and ambiguous alternative arrangements if they haven't been - you wait around a bit more, until the President-Elect becomes the President more than two and a half months after the original election. Assuming they haven't died in the meantime!



This system, with respect, is nuts.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 »

Seems the CBB got a mention back in September in a video by a user on YouTube who goes by Lichen called "12 Conlanging Tips". Wasn't expecting that at all watching a video that YouTube just recommended. Oh, and Academia.edu on YouTube was mentioned as well, which I know belongs to a member of the CBB [:D]
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But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Salmoneus wrote: 01 Dec 2020 16:02 I feel more people should point out how incredibly awful American elections are. They're almost astonishing! No wonder you have to rely on the media guessing the winner weeks or even months before the winner is actually officially determined (whereas in most countries, "calling" is basically only of interest to news channels to give them something to talk about for ten minutes before the official result).
Really, the only things that're astonishing here are a) that you really care so much about the American elections system that you would write a diatribe about such an an obviously sensitive subject as the political system of an entire country here and b) that any American would actually care what you think about it.

Myeh. Just chill. The system works.
Let's recap:
Let's not?
This system, with respect, is nuts.
With respect ...
Last edited by elemtilas on 02 Dec 2020 02:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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sangi39 wrote: 01 Dec 2020 20:40 Seems the CBB got a mention back in September in a video by a user on YouTube who goes by Lichen called "12 Conlanging Tips". Wasn't expecting that at all watching a video that YouTube just recommended. Oh, and Academia.edu on YouTube was mentioned as well, which I know belongs to a member of the CBB [:D]
Cool. CBB actually gets quite a few good mentions in other language invention communities! Particularly on Reddit; also at Stack Exchange (though admittedly, the latter are my doing, but hey! I wouldn't recommend CBB (in general or resources in specific) if I didn't think it were truly worth mentioning!).

Unfortunately, quite a few of the older links on Reddit are broken due to our change of domain name. [:'(] But I suppose that's just opportunity to remention!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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elemtilas wrote: 02 Dec 2020 02:26
Salmoneus wrote: 01 Dec 2020 16:02 I feel more people should point out how incredibly awful American elections are. They're almost astonishing! No wonder you have to rely on the media guessing the winner weeks or even months before the winner is actually officially determined (whereas in most countries, "calling" is basically only of interest to news channels to give them something to talk about for ten minutes before the official result).
Really, the only things that're astonishing here are a) that you really care so much about the American elections system that you would write a diatribe about such an an obviously sensitive subject as the political system of an entire country here and b) that any American would actually care what you think about it.

Myeh. Just chill. The system works.
Let's recap:
Let's not?
This system, with respect, is nuts.
With respect ...
This line of conversation clearly isn't headed anywhere good, so let's cut it off here.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Dormouse559 wrote: 02 Dec 2020 03:25 This line of conversation clearly isn't headed anywhere good, so let's cut it off here.
Indeed!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 02 Dec 2020 02:30
sangi39 wrote: 01 Dec 2020 20:40 Seems the CBB got a mention back in September in a video by a user on YouTube who goes by Lichen called "12 Conlanging Tips". Wasn't expecting that at all watching a video that YouTube just recommended. Oh, and Academia.edu on YouTube was mentioned as well, which I know belongs to a member of the CBB [:D]
Cool. CBB actually gets quite a few good mentions in other language invention communities! Particularly on Reddit; also at Stack Exchange (though admittedly, the latter are my doing, but hey! I wouldn't recommend CBB (in general or resources in specific) if I didn't think it were truly worth mentioning!).

Unfortunately, quite a few of the older links on Reddit are broken due to our change of domain name. [:'(] But I suppose that's just opportunity to remention!
I've seen some mentions of the Snowball Game and its word list on Reddit!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

clawgrip wrote: 18 Nov 2020 03:32 They're called inuyarai. They perform the following functions:

- as you said, prevent damage to buildings from foot traffic/bicycles/etc.
- prevent dogs from peeing directly on buildings, to prevent rot
- protect the walls of buildings from splashing rain and mud, also to prevent rot
- prevent thievery (harder to climb over and probably not strong enough to support a person's weight)

Considering the name (literally "dog palisade"), I guess the second point is the original one.

Edit: Also, these are not really found outside of areas with old-style buildings. In more modern areas you will just find rows of plastic bottles filled with water to stop animals from peeing. Whether or not this is actually effective is a different matter.
An update on the topic of inuyarai: we have them too!

Apparently, antiurination devices were widely introduced in London (and presumably other Westen cities) in the 19th century. By this time, buildings were stone or brick, so urination was not a structural problem, but changes in social attitudes had lead to the smell of urine being considered unfavourably. Improvements in the sanitation system had limited the amount of raw sewage in the streets - at least in expensive areas. Nonetheless, public toilets had not yet been widely introduced, and London was a very large city with many restaurants and theatres and the like, and people couldn't be expected to mak it all the way back home with a full bladder. It was therefore expected that people would urinate against walls in allyways. People whose windows and doors opened on to the street disliked this, and began to take steps against it. This was apparently somewhat controversial - the weird prissiness of people who inconvenienced the general public for no reason other than a bizarre dislike of the smell of urine!

Unlike Japanese inuyarai, London's inuyarai were made of stone or metal, rather than wood. Most have been removed - the development of public toilets, and a police force, made them less necessary, and I imagine that a lot of the metal ones were eventually stolen, or requisitioned (most of London's metal railings were taken by the government during WWII - allegedly to make fighter planes, but mostly just as a PR exercise to make people feel they were helping).

What you may sometimes see, however, are small, demisemicircular stones, with slanting tops, set into concave corners of Victorian stone buildings; sometimes the tops may be more complicated or even be surmounted by metal devices. The thinking here is that these corners were the main focus for urination, and these curved stones redirected the urine back at the urinator's feet. [I'd seen these, but never realised what they were]. There are also examples (eg on Tower Bridge) where the device is just metal, attached to either wall of the corner.

But if you want to see an original British equivalent of inuyarai, apparently the tourist hotspot for that is Clifford's Inn Passage, off Fleet Street, where a pair still exist: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5479/935 ... a301_b.jpg.

[Fleet Street has been a major drinking spot for the City of London for centuries, so an alley off Fleet Street is exactly where you'd expect to find these. And the City is also prone to keeping its old features, which may be why these have survived here, despite having been lost almost everywhere else.]

It seems we just call them urine deflectors, urine baffles, or AUDs. Inuyarai sounds better. And apparently somebody has a project to map and record the entire urine baffle inheritence of Norwich...


[These days, London is increasingly turning to technology: a new type of paint is being experimented with, which is meant to achieve the same effect, by combining a protective coating on the stone or break with an extremely bouncy outer surface...]
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by clawgrip »

Very interesting.

I guess London's are ningenyarai, then.
(human palisades)
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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clawgrip wrote: 07 Dec 2020 13:26 Very interesting.

I guess London's are ningenyarai, then.
(human palisades)
I strongly suspect Japan's are as well!

The two reasons I think that are:
- in a city, humans outnumber dogs. And the demands of the human bladder are the same in all countries, as are the effects of alcohol
- the height of inuyarai seems not just unnecessary but counterproductive, if dogs are the issue. The common factor in all these designs is the curved or slanted top surface, which redirects the urine back at the urinator. But dog urine would hit lower down, at a point where the inuyarai seem to often be vertical, or at least less curved. The height of the inuyarai above the expected dog-urine-trajectory-intercept, and the fact that most of the curve is above that point, seems to suggest a taller, presumably human urinator is the real enemy.

Given that, I suspect that the Japanese name is actually a euphemism, at least originally. But I'm not an expert in this area!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by clawgrip »

Also, I suspect that dogs probably don't care nearly as much about splashback.

To be honest, I don't really know a whole lot about inuyarai anyway, because they're not common at all, so you could easily be right.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

Guzhiet Navidad!



Here's a holiday quiz for all of you. Which Christmas carol reverses the animacy hierarchy for all the verses except the last?
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Man in Space »

Khemehekis wrote: 25 Dec 2020 09:09 Guzhiet Navidad!



Here's a holiday quiz for all of you. Which Christmas carol reverses the animacy hierarchy for all the verses except the last?
I initially thought “The 12 Days of Christmas” (“my true love gave to me”), but then I realized all the verses are like that.
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