The Sixth Conversation Thread

What can I say? It doesn't fit above, put it here. Also the location of board rules/info.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

Bob wrote: 18 Jul 2020 06:45 Logographic scripts is my thing and from what people tell me, my conlangs aren't so great. I think they're great, though, but I just focus on little things for them.
It would actually help you very much if, in stead of focusing on nebulous posts that lack content, you started a thread in Conlangs and actually showed us your own invented languages! I can't speak for anyone else, but I think in all of the communities you post to, the vast majority of people simply don't care all that much about commercial conlangs. We're much more interested in and are much more likely to respond positively to an exposition of your own creativity.

I don't care if your invented languages are big or small, horrible or wonderful. I would just like to see some actual content posts from you of a glossopoetic nature!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

Perhaps, rather than passive aggression, you could respond to posts you "simply don't care all that much about" by ignoring them?

Nobody here is under any obligation to entertain you, or anybody else. The rubric at the top up there says "discuss constructed languages, cultures, worlds, related sciences and much more" - which is exactly what Bob is doing. There is no obligation to be an active conlanger to post here; nor is there any requirement for an active conlanger to share their material with you if you don't want to. You've already suggested that Bob do so, and they haven't: maybe you should take the hint and not try to pressure them into doing something they clearly don't yet want to do.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 »

Just to step in, because I suspect this is something bigger than a "just post your conlangs" issue, but Sal is right. While this forum, in broad terms is "for conlangers" it isn't solely a place for presentation of work (looking at the list of members vs. the number of threads dedicated to showing off specific conlangs, I'd hazard a guess that the majority of users on the CBB don't present their work), but it's also a place to discuss conlangs, related topics like conworlds, linguistics, anthropology, etc., and to ask questions.



As for the wider context, which has been pointed out by a couple of users here already, and which the Mods are aware of, please try to not bring it from other forums to this one.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

sangi39 wrote: 19 Jul 2020 18:59 Just to step in, because I suspect this is something bigger than a "just post your conlangs" issue, but Sal is right. While this forum, in broad terms is "for conlangers" it isn't solely a place for presentation of work (looking at the list of members vs. the number of threads dedicated to showing off specific conlangs, I'd hazard a guess that the majority of users on the CBB don't present their work), but it's also a place to discuss conlangs, related topics like conworlds, linguistics, anthropology, etc., and to ask questions.
You are correct! Salmoneus, as he often does, has determined what I am thinking and has assigned to me a particular set of behaviours when he has no knowledge of the situation or awareness of the context. I am glad you stepped in, however!

I have absolutely no qualms with Bob posting his work on Atlantean or Pakuni, and never have. That Salmoneus has put words in my mouth, I do have qualms with that. I just want to see more of Bob's own work! And I see no reason why we shouldn't continue to encourage others to share! I see this as a positive action.

The fact of the matter is, had Salmoneus actually read the exchange, he would have noticed that I am simply encouraging Bob, who is an active language inventor!, to show us some of that work! Salmoneous is not aware of this, but I do read almost all of Bob's posts, and have done so over the last 14 years, and have taken an interest in various aspects of his work on third party languages. Here, I am simply expressing the desire to see more of his own original work.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 »

I suggest everyone move on. Everyone's said their part - the purpose if the CBB has been stated, Bob can post his conlangs, or not, as is he sees fit, and has been encouraged to do do (but if he doesn't want to take up that advice, then that's fair).

The usual rules apply, if you don't want to reply then don't, if you want to encourage someone to share then so, but don't go do far as to pester, and, if course, try to be civil where best you can.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

PSA:

Just to let everyone know that Jack Bradley (Conlang-L) has edited and published a nice little book called Vatum, a quarterly collection of original literature written in invented languages. Can be read online or purchased via Lulu. All are welcome to submit for future editions.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Bob »

I've posted a bunch of conlangs to my website and Zompist Bboard under this name.

https://anylanguageatall411.blogspot.co ... w=flipcard

My conlangs are really great but not in the usual way. I got a BA Linguistics but am a unique and pioneering scholar of all 50 known hieroglyphic (logographic) writing systems. I also have done unique work studying and deciphering conlangs from famous books, tv, and movies. I put all my studies in my conlangs. But they don't have such complex grammars and they're not very realistic. They're also heavy on logographic writing system stuff because that's my thing. And most of the work I do with conlangs are with these book tv and movie conlangs that I took so much time to decipher.

Anyway, I think I originally posted about this here but then moved the post to a new thread in the Conlangs forum that nobody's responded to.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by masako »

Bob wrote: 21 Jul 2020 00:46 ...that nobody's responded to.
Interesting. To be sure.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

Bob wrote: 18 Jul 2020 06:45 I forget if I ever read the grammar of Kankonian. If I did, it would have been more than 2 years ago and I study a lot of conlangs that people post online.
You can find my Kankonian grammar at http://khemehekis.angelfire.com/basic.htm
I study word meanings a lot in a ton of languages, so I can totally relate to what you've done here.
[+1]
and:Implied.Adjective : I never encountered this in a real language. It could happen, though.
Woo-hoo! Is this something that's for once beyonf ANADEW?
Specifically adult dog : I specialize in words about animals and their etymology and I think this is rare in natural languages.
You're saying it's rare, but it is known?
A complete dictionary from it soon? Oh, there's not much interest in Okrand's Atlantean. We had a Bruce Irving recently come on and make 200 "hand-crafted" words for us but other than that, the most that happens with this language is that recently and in 2018, I translated about 20 and 5 pages of text into the language and make up new words and grammar for that. The 20 year old facebook group I run for the language now has 500 members but few ever do anything.
Yeah, I was under the impression that there wasn't much interest. I've never heard the name Bruce Irving; does he post under any screennames (along the lines of me posting as "Khemehekis", or Mark Rosenfelder posting as "Zompist"?)
I worked almost all of the corpus and dictionary out, mostly starting 2006. I recently did a complete, hand-written revision.
Impressive!
I have also studied Klingon and done some translations into it. But it's not exactly Klingon, I think it's like a "learner's Klingon" or "alternative Klingon" that I made which is easier to translate into and allows me to make up new words and grammar at will.
So it's not canon?
Well, if you suggest I vote, well, sure, I'll vote.
Thank you!

I see you voted both of them up. They both got in; "headphones" is DannI' (Dany being a Pakistani headphone manufacturer), and "disorder, disability, syndrome, condition" is HarqIn (after Tom Harkin, the senator who championed the Americans with Disabilities Act).
Aside from that one big Proto-Indo-European one, I just did one that's like an Ancient Bantu language, which is one of the major branches of the Niger-Congo languages of Africa. But the words are slightly altered Swahili and I had no reference to a Proto-Niger-Congo or Proto-Bantu or anything like that. I studied a ton of Bantu languages using my limited resources and made it based on them and then just stuff I made up. It's a lot like Swahili.
I'm sure the people on this board would want to hear about it; it's not every day someone creates a Bantu conlang on this board!

All4Ɇn has a Southeast Asian conlang here, which can be written either with a Vietnamese-style romanization or with Chinese characters, and I love it!
I haven't met them. I'm not sure if I've seen Linguifex with his Caber logograms.
Check out this thread. I think you'll like it:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4825&p=197597&hilit ... ms#p197597
I hope you can get it online. It sounds really interesting to me.
[+1]
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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I recently found a file called Proto-Pärdel on my computer and a daughterlang called Ferrt(e)l. I vaguely remember that there was some collaboration involved. Does anyone here remember?
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

Google returns nothing. 8(
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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 20 Jul 2020 21:42 PSA:

Just to let everyone know that Jack Bradley (Conlang-L) has edited and published a nice little book called Vatum, a quarterly collection of original literature written in invented languages. Can be read online or purchased via Lulu. All are welcome to submit for future editions.
How truly lovely! I loved reading Jim Hopkins' Itlani story!

And I also see that you jave your Blackwolf tale in there!
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 66,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 04:09
elemtilas wrote: 20 Jul 2020 21:42 PSA:

Just to let everyone know that Jack Bradley (Conlang-L) has edited and published a nice little book called Vatum, a quarterly collection of original literature written in invented languages. Can be read online or purchased via Lulu. All are welcome to submit for future editions.
How truly lovely! I loved reading Jim Hopkins' Itlani story!

And I also see that you jave your Blackwolf tale in there!
indeed!

I think the project came out very nice, both the online and print versions.

I'd certainly invite anyone here who's got some invented language text, really of any kind or type or length, to make a submission!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 07 Aug 2020 05:15
Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 04:09
elemtilas wrote: 20 Jul 2020 21:42 PSA:

Just to let everyone know that Jack Bradley (Conlang-L) has edited and published a nice little book called Vatum, a quarterly collection of original literature written in invented languages. Can be read online or purchased via Lulu. All are welcome to submit for future editions.
How truly lovely! I loved reading Jim Hopkins' Itlani story!

And I also see that you jave your Blackwolf tale in there!
indeed!

I think the project came out very nice, both the online and print versions.

I'd certainly invite anyone here who's got some invented language text, really of any kind or type or length, to make a submission!
I have a question, Elemtilas. Is your Swesware poem written in an OSV language?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

Incidentally: John Hume has died.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 04:06 Google returns nothing. 8(
What a shame. I would love to continue working on this project, but I would feel bad using it without acknowleding other people's involvement.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

Creyeditor wrote: 07 Aug 2020 14:02
Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 04:06 Google returns nothing. 8(
What a shame. I would love to continue working on this project, but I would feel bad using it without acknowleding other people's involvement.
[:'(]

Have you done the Search option in your email box?
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 19:00
Creyeditor wrote: 07 Aug 2020 14:02
Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 04:06 Google returns nothing. 8(
What a shame. I would love to continue working on this project, but I would feel bad using it without acknowleding other people's involvement.
[:'(]

Have you done the Search option in your email box?
Thank you for the advise. I did, actually, but there were no results. Maybe it turns out that it was an offline collaboration or something. I will just have to wait till either I remember it in more detail or someone who remembers more clearly shows up.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

Khemehekis wrote: 07 Aug 2020 11:50 I have a question, Elemtilas. Is your Swesware poem written in an OSV language?
Queranarran. Yes, largely OSV.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Salmoneus »

I have a question, people! About bathing!

So, by a roundabout way, I came across a brief article about the history of bathrooms - how the modern bathroom was invented as part of a craze for 'sanitary' arrangements in the early 20th century, echoing some concerns we face now. Yada yada.

But what perplexes me is the illustrations. Look at this late-19th-century bathroom. Obviously, the most striking thing is that everything is a monumental wooden block. But beyond that, what ARE those things? Well, going clockwise from the bottom left... that immense plinth must be the toilet (see cistern above), and then the bath, and then... huh? A sink? A chest of drawers - but with something on top? And then on the right there's another one - that's definitely a chest of drawers, with maybe a container for cosmetics and the like on top? Then the real sink, and then... what is that narrow thing, a sort of lidded bidet?

But then finally, there's the real mystery: what is that thing at the bottom right?

And then again, at the end of the century, we have a bathroom like this one. The style is rather ornate, but more recognisable. And it contains the four essential items: the bath, the sink, the toilet, and, on the left, the.... what!?

The item on the left of the later picture and that on the far right in the earlier picture appear to be the same thing. Both are lower than the corresponding bath - the front is in each case lower than the seat of the toilet. Both are quite wide/long, but not as long as the full bath. Both appear to have taps nearby. And both have a very distinctive ogival 'shoulder'. And given that it's still there as one of only four items in the simplified ~1900 bathroom, they're clearly important.

BUT WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY!?

So, I've thought of four options, but none of them seem convincing to me:

a) a bidet. You could sit/crouch in it. However, having to sit in the water doesn't seem to match the sanitary purpose of the bidet. It's much larger than it would need to be, too. And the older, wooden bathroom has that otherwise unidentifed 'narrow plinth' item that could well be a bidet itself.

b) a urinal. It's a little bit like a trough urinal, to use while standing. But if you're going to have a private urinal, why would it need to be so wide? And the front of the wooden one seems rather high for that purpose. And you've had thought the makers of the wooden bathroom would have discretely hidden the porcelain if it was used for urination. And it's not just high-backed, it's specifically got those 'shoulders' - how would they help a urinal? And finally, both devices seem to have no cistern-powered flush, but instead THREE taps. Presumably, given that everything else has three taps, that's hot and cold mixers and a volume control. A bit elaborate for a urinal!

c) a sit-in bath. Those shoulders look useful for helping you stand up out of the bath, don't they? The width is wide enough for you to sit while still have room on either side for, say, dipping a pitcher or the like. And yet... it's really low! Why would a sit-in bath be lower than either the bath or the toilet? In fact on the newer one, given that no seat is visible, you'd almost be down on the floor! Given the depth of the baths, why not just fill the bath partway, if you just wanted to sit in some water? Unlike the baths, both devices have no visible water taps down INTO the device, presumably meaning that the water comes in from the side or from below (supporting the bidet theory, I guess). And since the newer bathroom has both a bath AND a shower - and it wasn' felt necessary to make the shower separate from the bath - would it really be worth a third showering device, separate from the others? And are those shoulders really ideal for pushing yourself upright - aren't they too far back, and too curved?

d) a foot bath. For washing your feet. That would explain why it's low. And maybe why the water comes in from the side - you'd only need a little water in the bottom, and you could even have a sort of 'running stream' effect that might be nice. But... wow, that's a big bit of expensive furniture just for washing your feet! And the wooden one has quite a high front to step into. And... what, you're meant to just stand there, with no (visible) seat? And despite the huge design changes in these few decades, the 'shoulder' shape is retained, so surely is important somehow? I guess you could lean on them while bending over to wash your feet... but that hardly seems ideal! The shoulders are very low, lower than the sides of the bath, lower than the sink. If you were designing something for foot-washing, wouldn't you make it a seat with a small basin in front, not a big semi-bath you have to stand in, then bend over to wash your feet one-handed while precariously holding on to a curved, slippery enable side?

On balance, I'm guessing d) is the answer, but it still seems like a really bad answer. Does anyone have a better one?


------

While we're at it, look at this. What's that on the back left? A low trough, but seemingly with some sort of dome lid? I'd put it down to a weird picture, but then look at the picture on the right here. It looks like the same 'domed' item in the right corner. What are these? Footbaths? Why the dome? And then in that picture, look, right front, there's ANOTHER low trough by the door! Nobody can need two different foot-bathing items of furniture in one bathroom, surely!? [And neither is likely to be a bidet - not only are they the wrong shape, but look, in the second picture there, the 'sanitary ideal', the toilet is discretely in its own demichamber - presumably the bidet would be, too?



-----

I know these questions aren't exactly vital, but it's just really curious!
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