The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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I'm okay with US states and Canadian provinces and even most Australian states. English counties, I know quite a few names, but am a little fuzzier on location. I can pinpoint Cornwall and Devon, Kent and Norfolk. The last on account of the nine days wonder. I also know they manked around with the county borders in 1974.

For elsewhere, country level names I could get the vast majority right, though central Asia is a little fuzzy. Coastlines, landmass shapes, major rivers & mountains are all no problem. Many tectonic boundaries and glacial maximums as well.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

Salmoneus wrote: 18 May 2021 13:46 So "Cleveland", "Arkansas", "Austin" and "North Dakota" are among the most commonly used words in English (NB why is 'north dakota' even considered a word here?), and yet "Edinburgh" (a massive deal in the UK not only because it's a big and old city, but because it's a synecdoche for Scotland), "Lagos" (one of the world's biggest cxties and cultural capital of English-speaking west africa - Nigeria alone has over 200 million inhabitants, half of whom speak English!) and even "Delhi" (again, more than 100m English speakers, not to mention capital of one of the world's most important countries) aren't?

Hell, the list doesn't include "Westminster". So it's pretty automatically invalid! Sure, the UK is smaller than the US, but "Westminster" is a constant feature of all political coverage here - being both a physical place where lots of important things happen and famous things are located, and a metonymy for England, the government, and the political process and culture. I can promise you, it's mentioned in UK media way more than six times more than US media mentions Arkansas...
I'll ask my friend about the US-centrism of the list.

Looking over the latest version of the full 30,000-word list (the one when the corpus size reached 175m words), "London" is #1,360, "Oxford" is #4,361, "Cambridge" is #5,111, "Devon" is #7,585, "Edinburgh" is #8,959, "Manchester" is #6,122, "Liverpool" is #8,341, "Newcastle" is #8,848, "Newport" is #9,821, and "Wimbledon" is #11,582. There may be some other British cities in the top 10,000 that I've forgotten about or neglected to look for.

And as for "Arkansas", I mainly hear it mentioned as the home of former president Bill Clinton. I don't talk about it much myself! The only other Arkansan thing I can think of Wal-mart, which is headquartered in Bentonville, AR.

One interesting thing is that "Hamas", "Hezbollah", and "Benghazi" all make the top 10,000 words, despite not being Anglophone. Although American conservatives have a conspiracy theory that "Hitlery" Clinton had a journalist murdered in Benghazi, which to this day they won't stop harping on, so maybe it's not so surprising that a heavily-American corpus would have that word in the top 10,000. The 30,000-word list is full of Middle Eastern place names like "Misrata" and "Raqqa".

"Seoul" is #6,416 and "Pyongyang" is #7,847, while "Xinjiang" comes in at #17,097 and "Xinhua" at #20,939.
Even leaving geography aside, there's some weird inclusions and omissions. You have "funk" and "punk", and, somehow, "span", and yet you don't have, say, "pun", or "punt"/"punter"? How often do Americans discuss spans!?
Looking at COCA (an exclusively American corpus of 1 billion words of text), "span" (noun) is word #5,823 and "span" (verb) is #6,446. (COCA separates the parts of speech of its words, get used to it.) A look at the search for "span" at https://www.english-corpora.org/coca/ shows that people talk about life spans, time spans, wing spans, and attention spans, so it's not really surprising that the word comes up that high.

A check with COCA shows that "punk" is word #5,876, while "pun" (noun) is #11,143, "pun" is #32,467, "punt" (noun) is #10,955, "punt" (verb) is #18,269, and "punter" is #19,191.

In the 175m list for my friend's corpus, by comparison, "pun" is #6,766.

An interesting check would be the words for religions. "Christian", "Catholic", "Jewish", "Jew", "Muslim", "Islamic", "Islam", "cult", and "atheist" make the top 5,000, while "Protestant", "Anglican", "Episcopalian", "Orthodox", "Mormon", "Buddhist", "Hindu", "Sikh", "Baha'i", "Scientologist", "Pagan", "Wiccan", "Rastafarian", "Satanist", "deist", and "agnostic" do not.
There are also some 'words' that are just grammatical forms of other words - "rang", for instance. If you're going to do that, where are all the -ed and -s words.
The impression I got from reading the whole list was that anything that would be a separate dictionary entry was counted as a word, so "stole" and "stolen" are separate entries, for instance, while "steal", "steals", and "stealing" are lumped together. Also notice how the list has contractions like "don't" and "it's". Also "color" and "colour", "analyze" and "analyse", etc. appear to be lumped together, while on the other hand "railroad" (#4,697) and "railway" (#7,341) are separate.
Last edited by Khemehekis on 19 May 2021 07:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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elemtilas wrote: 18 May 2021 16:58
Khemehekis wrote: 18 May 2021 05:24 And *I* use "California" a lot in my speech! Certainly it's among the top 5,000 words!
hA! Landaucentrism -- it's the gerrymandering of the 21st century!
[:D]

Also, I just noticed that "curry", a food Brits and Indians eat more than Americans, made the top 5,000, while the North American "taco" did not. (Checking the 30,000-word list, "taco" just misses the top 5,000, coming in at #5,131.) And the all-American "cheeseburger" doesn't even show up until word #9,738!

EDIT: Looking up "North Dakota" in my copy of the 175m list, it only comes in at #7,357 -- one spot below "tractor". I'm not sure how it suddenly climbed into the top 5,000.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Today I got a response from my friend with the corpus in my email box. Sharing it with all of you.
James,

Thanks for writing me about my corpus-in-progress. Yes, there is an admitted American bias. CNN and NPR, the two media outlets from which I have millions of words of transcripts, are both American, although the latter has less of an American bias than the former. I have over 11m words of blogs in my corpus, including some political blogs, but all of the political blogs focus on American politics, from the Bush-43 years to the Biden years. Do you or the people at the CBB have any recommendations for good blogs on British politics - blogs where 'Westminster' would pop up a lot? The blog subcorpus still has a lot of growing to do. Likewise, the TV transcripts I could find were mostly for American shows (although I do have some Canadian shows like Degrassi: The Next Generation and Kids in the Hall). If anyone knows where I can find online transcripts of Yes, Prime Minister, let me know!

The news subcorpus has some Australian, New Zealand and Indian news sites sampled; as for British news, I have copied a few Guardian articles, but I have a whole slew of articles from the Daily Mail (!), which talks about Buckingham Palace and Queen Elizabeth and Harry more than May, Johnson and Corbyn, and has a heavy focus on celebs, British and not, so it's understandable that 'Westminster' would not be among the top 5000 words on my list.

The lyrics subcorpus includes many British artists, like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, the Dave Clark Five, the Who, the Sex Pistols, Sir Elton John, Rod Stewart, Depeche Mode, the Eurhythmics, Modern English, the Human League and the Sundays. I'm currently doing '90s music, so expect lots of Britpop to be added to IGCE soon! And of course, artists like Coldplay, Muse, James Blunt, Adele, Ed Sheeran, James Bay, Duffy, Calvin Harris and George Ezra will be added in the future - once I get to artists who made it big in the new millennium! Ofc these artists don't sing all that much about U.K. politics, even if some British punk bands (like the Pistols) were known for bashing the monarchy and/or Margaret Thatcher and John Major!

As for 'Austin', when I ran a Concordance on it, I discovered something interesting. Randomly reducing my concordance to a 200-line sample, only 112 out of 200 (56%) of tokens for 'Austin' referred to the city in Texas. The rest were names, such as 'Austin Powers' or 'Steve Austin'. If only 56% of the 2806 tokens for 'Austin' are the place name, that would be ~1570 tokens that are "words" rather than "proper names", which would take it out of the running for the top 5000. (The cut-off for top 5000, at 181m words, is the word 'modest', which occurs 2060 times.) With 'Cleveland' this is less pronounced than 'Austin', but still there (lots of Family Guy transcripts in IGCE). I'll just have to be sure to edit these when I make my 190m list. If it weren't for editing words that appeared as proper names a lot, 'trump' would no doubt be in the top 5000!

'Railroad' occurs 2236 times at 181m tokens. A quick concordance check shows that almost a quarter of these are from song lyrics. Yes, people in the 19th and early 20th century really did sing about trains a lot. With 'funk', this is even more pronounced, with just over half of the tokens coming from song lyrics. Seeing as I'm done with adding '70s songs, the rank of 'funk' on my list should gradually decline between now and the time I'm finished.

You are correct that 'rang' and 'stole' are listed separately from 'ring' and 'steal', or that contractions are listed as their own entries. This has always been the practice of IGCE. It was originally conceived as a list for teaching reading and spelling to English-speakers, and as such 'be', 'is', 'am', 'are', 'was', 'were' and 'been' are separate words, while 'walk', 'walks', 'walked' and 'walking' are not. In this way it was modeled after the Thorndike list. Thorndike was a groundbreaking experiment in corpus linguistics in its own time, although 18m words is too small to ensure accuracy at the lower frequency levels (some less-common words get in by chance, while some fairly common words get left out), and ofc Thorndike by now is way outdated.


All the best,
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Found out today that the University of Sheffield might move to close their archaeology department once the current load of students graduate. Obviously me thinking that sucks does come from a very personal place, but I do think it would be a shame in general. It's ranked pretty highly as a department both in the UK and in the world, its staff are pretty great (some of my favourite lecturers are still there, both teaching and doing research, and cover a fairly wide range of topics across time and space), and its staff and students form, and have formed, a part of some internationally known projects (like the Stonehenge Riverside Project, with Mike Parker-Pearson as one director) and smaller, local projects (like Heeley City Farm's reconstructed Iron Age roundhouse, and work with Creswell Museum & Heritage Centre in Derbyshire), and a host of projects and digs in between, which have helped in understanding our past, and to bring what has been learned to the wider public.

There's a petition going round at the moment, and almost everyone I'm still in touch with from my time studying at the department is writing directly to the university. We're not sure anyone there will listen, or whether it will make a difference, but it's worth a shot.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Have you heard what's happening at the University of Leicester?

Earlier this year, they announced that they needed to sack 145 academics in order to "decolonise" the curriculum - including entirely shutting down its mediaeval and early modern literature courses (which typically studies non-black authors), as well as its English language and linguistics courses (not sure what the reasoning there is). More recently, they've moved on to the business school. One academic was told their research "displays the profund questioning of the authority and relevance of mainstream management thinking" - and that therefore they were no longer welcome. Other rationales for sacking included that someone had undertaken research that "discusses radical alternatives", that they had researched "alternative organisations and the social economy", or that they had conducted research "from a sociological perspective". In theory these are redundancies, but even before the staff are out the door the university is advertising for replacements, doing the same jobs, but without teaching qualifications or PhDs.

[their real PR mistake: pissing off both left (sacking management scholars for questioning management dogmas) and right (sacking mediaevalists because they don't talk enough about race and sexuality) at the same time...]

Ultimately, universities are more and more being pressured to act as for-profit businesses. But the university structure is fundamentally unprofitable. So they increasingly turn to hiring cheaper and less experienced staff, to removing subjects that don't attract enough pupils, and to reorienting the surviving courses toward market demands. Leicester had a famously left-wing business school, and so was valued by academics of all persuasions, because somebody has to do that 'critical management studies' research; but the sort of people who want to study business - and in particularly the Chinese, Russian and Arab students the university needs to attract for their money - don't want critical thinking, they want a mainstream, easily-marketable degree.

Similarly, Birmingham's apparently introducing an up-or-out system: any academic who doesn't get promoted within a set time span - on the basis of getting enough citations - will automatically be fired. In theory this is to prune the academic deadwood and promote the most talented - but in practice, it will be used to shutter entire departments that are considered too niche to be profitable.

In many cases, this is happening now with second-tier universities - Leicester, Birmingham, Sheffield - because they "invested" heavily in the good times in order to become attractive to foreign students. Advertising = foreign students = money = advertising. Or in other words: they ran up a fuckton of debt and now they need to find a way to pay it back. So the parts of the university that don't directly produce profit (at Leicester apparently they're also gutting their library staff, for instance, because nobody goes to a university on the basis of hearing that their libraries are efficiently managed...) are slashed back.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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sangi39 wrote: 20 May 2021 21:06 Found out today that the University of Sheffield might move to close their archaeology department once the current load of students graduate. Obviously me thinking that sucks does come from a very personal place, but I do think it would be a shame in general. It's ranked pretty highly as a department both in the UK and in the world, its staff are pretty great (some of my favourite lecturers are still there, both teaching and doing research, and cover a fairly wide range of topics across time and space), and its staff and students form, and have formed, a part of some internationally known projects (like the Stonehenge Riverside Project, with Mike Parker-Pearson as one director) and smaller, local projects (like Heeley City Farm's reconstructed Iron Age roundhouse, and work with Creswell Museum & Heritage Centre in Derbyshire), and a host of projects and digs in between, which have helped in understanding our past, and to bring what has been learned to the wider public.

There's a petition going round at the moment, and almost everyone I'm still in touch with from my time studying at the department is writing directly to the university. We're not sure anyone there will listen, or whether it will make a difference, but it's worth a shot.
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that, Sangi. I know your original dream was degree in archaeology + job as an archaeologist (and you've discussed how things didn't turn out that way). So now they want to close down archaeology altogether? [:'(]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for what Salmoneus said about business major types wanting mainstream marketable degrees and all that, we discuss this a lot on the NYRA (National Youth Rights Association) Facebook group. "College is the new high school." University is not for everyone. Once attending college (using the American sense of the word, i.e. university) became the norm for Americans, the preppies -- as Americans call clean-cut kids who follow society's script -- started all going to college, the middle-class-and-lower ones taking out student loans, not so they could learn critical thinking and the arts, but so they could get a post-tertiary job that would allow them to live in houses with white picket fences with their (obligatorily opposite-gender) spouses and 2.5 kids. College just became a way of keeping up with the Joneses, and we're now stuck with a problem of degree deflation.

As for American youth who aren't preppies? The jocks attend to play college football and join fraternities. The nerds attend to pursue study and career in their academic interests. And what I call "Youth Culturalists" -- the hippies, goths, skaters, slackers, hip-hoppers, VSCO girls, emo kids, and a dozen other subcultures -- mostly attended college too, at least in the U.S., so we could follow our Twengean passions in life such as the performing arts, the visual arts, or cannabiculture and be "special", and/or so we could partake in student activism for a plethora of left-wing political causes, and/or so we could party. Many of us, especially during the Boomer collegian years, also attend(ed) college to "find ourselves".

And of course, whatever subculture they are, many American Millennial kids just want to get rich!

Sorry this turned out so long and screedy.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Have you heard what's happening at the University of Leicester?
Wow. That's scary. But not unexpected. There is some very serious damage being done to Western Culture these last several decades. Are we all ready for a proper dark age? Not a slide into barbarism, but the choice to devolve, to regress willingly made?
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Khemehekis wrote: 21 May 2021 01:17 "College is the new high school." University is not for everyone.
Too true. Most especially for the public system. Too much focus on standardised tests; too much focus on socially correct issues that children don't actually need to learn about in school; less focus on knowledge, academic skills and how to apply them. The result is middle schoolers (I think that's what they're called in the public system) who aren't really ready for high school get passed along, and then they have to try and catch up. By the time they've caught up what they should have learned in middle school, they're passed through and along to the college where again they lag. One of our local community colleges literally has a program to teach all these uneducated public school graduates how to write in English, how to do maths, basics of science, basics of research. H.S. is supposed to end at grade 12, but these are literally grade 13 high schoolers.

And this is nothing new. If you look at text books and exam papers from the late 19th century, they covered the basic topics: English language, grammar, literature, rhetoric, Latin, geogrpahy, mathematics, algebra, geometry, history, sometimes theology and even philosophy pretty deeply and pretty broadly. I dare say no modern adult with a "marketable degree" could pass those exams!
Once attending college (using the American sense of the word, i.e. university) became the norm for Americans, the preppies -- as Americans call clean-cut kids who follow society's script -- started all going to college, the middle-class-and-lower ones taking out student loans, not so they could learn critical thinking and the arts, but so they could get a post-tertiary job that would allow them to live in houses with white picket fences with their (obligatorily opposite-gender) spouses and 2.5 kids. College just became a way of keeping up with the Joneses, and we're now stuck with a problem of degree deflation.
I.e., so that they didn't have to be dirt poor farmers or labourers or miners or steel mill workers like their dads and granddads, so that their kids didn't have to go to school barefoot with nothing to eat for lunch, so that they could grow up not in a poor company town or an industrial slum. And of course the spouse was obligatorily opposite gender. That's how the overwhelmingly vast majority of humans do it. Go to college, meet a guy, get married, fuck him senseless and make some children. That's life! And work your collective butts off so that they have a chance at a little better, little more comfortable life than you or your parents had.

Quite a lot of those college bound were GI Bill from the 1940s through the 1960s and into the 70s. With the technological explosion of the mid to late 20th century, many of those grads did very well. Probably not many "preppies" among them, if I understand the term correctly.
As for American youth who aren't preppies? The jocks attend to play college football and join fraternities. The nerds attend to pursue study and career in their academic interests. And what I call "Youth Culturalists" -- the hippies, goths, skaters, slackers, hip-hoppers, VSCO girls, emo kids, and a dozen other subcultures -- mostly attended college too, at least in the U.S., so we could follow our Twengean passions in life such as the performing arts, the visual arts, or cannabiculture and be "special", and/or so we could partake in student activism for a plethora of left-wing political causes, and/or so we could party. Many of us, especially during the Boomer collegian years, also attend(ed) college to "find ourselves".
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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elemtilas wrote: 21 May 2021 05:24 And this is nothing new. If you look at text books and exam papers from the late 19th century, they covered the basic topics: English language, grammar, literature, rhetoric, Latin, geogrpahy, mathematics, algebra, geometry, history, sometimes theology and even philosophy pretty deeply and pretty broadly. I dare say no modern adult with a "marketable degree" could pass those exams!
Definitely. The attitude around here is if it's not STEM, it's completely worthless. I with my linguistics major and Latin minor am being quite defiant. [:D]
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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KaiTheHomoSapien wrote: 21 May 2021 05:42
elemtilas wrote: 21 May 2021 05:24 And this is nothing new. If you look at text books and exam papers from the late 19th century, they covered the basic topics: English language, grammar, literature, rhetoric, Latin, geogrpahy, mathematics, algebra, geometry, history, sometimes theology and even philosophy pretty deeply and pretty broadly. I dare say no modern adult with a "marketable degree" could pass those exams!
Definitely. The attitude around here is if it's not STEM, it's completely worthless. I with my linguistics major and Latin minor am being quite defiant. [:D]
Go defiantly into that dark and stemy night!
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Salmoneus wrote: 21 May 2021 00:42 Similarly, Birmingham's apparently introducing an up-or-out system: any academic who doesn't get promoted within a set time span - on the basis of getting enough citations - will automatically be fired. In theory this is to prune the academic deadwood and promote the most talented - but in practice, it will be used to shutter entire departments that are considered too niche to be profitable.
I think this is starting to become the norm in some disciplines. Being fired (in practice a contract is often just not extended) is often considered a good thing in politics because it is supposed to allow academic mobility and transfer of knowledge. In practice it just means that - unless you are a professor - you have cannot be sure about your financial situation in six years.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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There's obviously some truth to that excuse: academia does have a problem with budgets being hogged by ancient professors and emeritus professors who have hung around the place for decades, picking up friends and reputation on the basis of that one book they wrote forty years ago, blocking younger and more innovative voices from being heard (or paid). Certainly nobody would want things to go as far as in America, with its "tenure" that seems to be tantamount to union-negotiated immunity from accountability. There has to be a way to get rid of older academics, and there has to be some sort of reward for (or punishment for avoiding) continued relevant research*.

However, it has to be done with some finesse and understanding. It has to understand three things:
a) the academic environment requires a lot of niches, and some of them, no matter how great the academic in them, are never going to be 'star' disciplines;
b) even in disciplines where there are stars, those stars benefit immeasurably from having non-star academics around them. Whether that's people to do the unsexy research legwork that provides the data and tools for the brilliant new idea, or people to hang around the cafeteria and never have their own idea but help improve everyone else's ideas by poking holes in them, or just people to actually waste time teaching all those annoying students, a faculty that consists only of the best and brightest will not be the best or brightest faculty...;
c) whether your work is being cited by other people a lot is a metric that captures part of what it is to be a succesful academic; but it's only a small part. Like all operationalised metrics, it allows a lot of value to slip through the mesh, and like all operationalised metrics it can be and will be gamed.


The underlying problem of academia, however, is that there's a fundamental market incentive mismatch: what we're paying for isn't want we say we want.

In fact, there's two paradoxes:
a) academics, and much of the public, believes universities are there to pursue wisdom and knowledge; the government believes they are there to "prepare young people for the real world of work". Academics therefore want to focus on research on valuable and interesting problems; but incentives are set up to force a focus on teaching, and in particular on teaching 'useful' subjects.
b) the government wants universities to produce a certain workforce. But their free market convictions mean that the actual incentives are driven by what the prospective students want, not the government, and what the students want often isn't what the government wants (OR what academics want...)



*I'm reminded of Derek Parfit. As legend has it, after the publication of his seminal work (Reasons and Persons), he persuaded the university authorities to give him a special chair, making him immune from both teaching and publication requirements, so that he could concentrate fully on writing the eagerly-awaited sequel. Then he spent the next 30 years arguing that jobs like his were a terrible mistake, and campaigning to prevent any similar post ever being awarded again. And also wandering around the town photographing things. I remember being amused that the Philosophy Faculty was unable to get him to actually write his damn book (excerpts of it were handed around as a trade secret in my time as a student - we were to be enlightened by it but forbidden from referencing it directly - but not published until years later, and the final volume was posthumous), but HAD managed to get him to contribute most of the photos on the Faculty website...
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

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Salmoneus wrote: 21 May 2021 00:42 Have you heard what's happening at the University of Leicester?

Earlier this year, they announced that they needed to sack 145 academics in order to "decolonise" the curriculum - including entirely shutting down its mediaeval and early modern literature courses (which typically studies non-black authors), as well as its English language and linguistics courses (not sure what the reasoning there is). More recently, they've moved on to the business school. One academic was told their research "displays the profund questioning of the authority and relevance of mainstream management thinking" - and that therefore they were no longer welcome. Other rationales for sacking included that someone had undertaken research that "discusses radical alternatives", that they had researched "alternative organisations and the social economy", or that they had conducted research "from a sociological perspective". In theory these are redundancies, but even before the staff are out the door the university is advertising for replacements, doing the same jobs, but without teaching qualifications or PhDs.

[their real PR mistake: pissing off both left (sacking management scholars for questioning management dogmas) and right (sacking mediaevalists because they don't talk enough about race and sexuality) at the same time...]

Ultimately, universities are more and more being pressured to act as for-profit businesses. But the university structure is fundamentally unprofitable. So they increasingly turn to hiring cheaper and less experienced staff, to removing subjects that don't attract enough pupils, and to reorienting the surviving courses toward market demands. Leicester had a famously left-wing business school, and so was valued by academics of all persuasions, because somebody has to do that 'critical management studies' research; but the sort of people who want to study business - and in particularly the Chinese, Russian and Arab students the university needs to attract for their money - don't want critical thinking, they want a mainstream, easily-marketable degree.

Similarly, Birmingham's apparently introducing an up-or-out system: any academic who doesn't get promoted within a set time span - on the basis of getting enough citations - will automatically be fired. In theory this is to prune the academic deadwood and promote the most talented - but in practice, it will be used to shutter entire departments that are considered too niche to be profitable.

In many cases, this is happening now with second-tier universities - Leicester, Birmingham, Sheffield - because they "invested" heavily in the good times in order to become attractive to foreign students. Advertising = foreign students = money = advertising. Or in other words: they ran up a fuckton of debt and now they need to find a way to pay it back. So the parts of the university that don't directly produce profit (at Leicester apparently they're also gutting their library staff, for instance, because nobody goes to a university on the basis of hearing that their libraries are efficiently managed...) are slashed back.
I actually hadn't heard about Leicester at all, or Birmingham, so that's pretty much news to me. I was aware of, for example, moves towards universities having a broader scope within the arts and "soft sciences" in terms of diversity of backgrounds, but I wasn't aware of entire departments shut down and numbers of staff being replaced on that basis. I mean, I can see the reasoning for it, and the intended result, but I can't say I agree with the approach. And if it means lecturers and researchers who actively challenge accepted schools of thought, well, isn't that at least part of the point of universities? To introduce people to a variety of differing interpretations of the world, that students can poke and prod, and build upon to better understand the subject?

One of my engineering friends from Sheffield (currently working under the University of Calgary), has mentioned universities becoming more and more business-like, especially in the business- and engineering-related subjects, with a move towards providing people with stable job prospects based on "accepted wisdom" (basically something that won't push too many red buttons for future employers) rather than on doing anything overly "out there" or "novel". His thinking is that this is mainly coming from above, especially in regards to funding, where a given university is expected to roll out "workers" in a given field, who will go on to more directly affect the economy, rather than funding science that has no immediate value (the whole "I don't know what it could do, but I know you'll tax it one day" line of thinking doesn't seem to fly any more).

I can't say I know much about the situation with foreign students, but at least at Sheffield they did seem to be more heavily involved in things like hard sciences and business, which I guess is the sort of thing you travel thousands of miles for over, and if that's where the money is, while arts and "soft sciences" get little to nothing in the way of income, then, treating universities like a business, it would make sense to cut them. Again, I don't agree with it, but if that's the sort of thing heads of universities are dealing with, I can see why they'd do it.


To go on to what Khemehekis said about universities becoming a place for people to go to "earn more money" in the USA, I think the same thing has been happening here in the UK. When I was in college, so much emphasis was placed on applying to university (everyone in my year had to at least apply), because it could raise your income by some percentage, because degrees meant you were more highly valued (I assume as well that university acceptance rates might have affected funding for the college - the more students go off to university, the more money they'd get, which would allow them to pay for better teaching and equipment). I think at the time they were still relatively rare, so it sort of made sense. A few years ago, though, we hit 50% of college students being accepted to a university, and then education (in some form or another) to 18, as opposed to 16, became compulsory. So basically everyone aged 18 now has A-Levels (or some equivalent qualification), and half of them have degrees? What does a degree even mean any more at that point? I mean, I suppose it's fine if you're going into a niche field (assuming it's receiving funding any more), but I had to compete with people to get a retail job and had to actively argue why my degree didn't matter.


It does seem like universities are being... "targeted" might be the wrong choice of words... from both ends. Responding to pressure from above, they need to act more like businesses, so cut funding to unprofitable departments. Then responding to pressure from the side and below, from popular movements and societal trends, they're cutting funding to disagreeable(?) staff and departments. The arts suffer, subjects like sociology, psychology, archaeology, anthropology, etc. can't grow, and the hard sciences and economics departments just become factories for a labour force.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 »

Khemehekis wrote: 21 May 2021 01:17
sangi39 wrote: 20 May 2021 21:06 Found out today that the University of Sheffield might move to close their archaeology department once the current load of students graduate. Obviously me thinking that sucks does come from a very personal place, but I do think it would be a shame in general. It's ranked pretty highly as a department both in the UK and in the world, its staff are pretty great (some of my favourite lecturers are still there, both teaching and doing research, and cover a fairly wide range of topics across time and space), and its staff and students form, and have formed, a part of some internationally known projects (like the Stonehenge Riverside Project, with Mike Parker-Pearson as one director) and smaller, local projects (like Heeley City Farm's reconstructed Iron Age roundhouse, and work with Creswell Museum & Heritage Centre in Derbyshire), and a host of projects and digs in between, which have helped in understanding our past, and to bring what has been learned to the wider public.

There's a petition going round at the moment, and almost everyone I'm still in touch with from my time studying at the department is writing directly to the university. We're not sure anyone there will listen, or whether it will make a difference, but it's worth a shot.
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that, Sangi. I know your original dream was degree in archaeology + job as an archaeologist (and you've discussed how things didn't turn out that way). So now they want to close down archaeology altogether? [:'(]
There are, at the moment, three options being considered, 1) to keep the department going as is, 2) remove archaeology as a distinct subject and merge it into other subjects (so, say, linguistics, history, modules on gender studies, etc.), or 3) dissolve the department entirely and make all current staff redundant as the current run of students graduate.

I don't know how, say, Doonan's work on metallurgy would fit in to option 2 (let alone his outreach work), for example. Or where any sort of geophys work might fit in either, so presumably option 2 still leads to redundancies and a loss of resources. There are still finds from Stonehenge from 2009 being studied. What happens to them? Does Kuykendall get thrown in with the biology departments because of his work on human evolution, or does he get sidelined completely? Does John Bennet (if I ever spell that with two Ts he'd kill me) get to keep doing his research on the ancient Aegean, or does he have to head off permanently to the British School of Athens, and what happens if that loses funding? John Barrett was one of the first people to tell us that while a well-read conclusion is essential, the idea of "balance" as taught in colleges is the wrong approach (he didn't care if you disagreed with him, he cared that you made a point, and made it well). Does he get thrown into Biblical Studies? Does that even get to stay open? Susan Sherratt is out, because she probably doesn't even qualify to work for Art History studies. Bob Johnston is gone unless he can fit into geography. Even Marek Zvelebil, were he still alive, would probably be made redundant (loved that bouncing Czech).

I swear, the only thing that probably could keep it going would be Mike Parker-Pearson, and he's off down south now. He was quoted in the Guardian, though, saying what a loss it would be for the department to close or be shuffled into other disciplines. We'll see.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Just one time.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 »

Salmoneus wrote: 22 May 2021 00:04 There's obviously some truth to that excuse: academia does have a problem with budgets being hogged by ancient professors and emeritus professors who have hung around the place for decades, picking up friends and reputation on the basis of that one book they wrote forty years ago, blocking younger and more innovative voices from being heard (or paid). Certainly nobody would want things to go as far as in America, with its "tenure" that seems to be tantamount to union-negotiated immunity from accountability. There has to be a way to get rid of older academics, and there has to be some sort of reward for (or punishment for avoiding) continued relevant research*.

However, it has to be done with some finesse and understanding. It has to understand three things:
a) the academic environment requires a lot of niches, and some of them, no matter how great the academic in them, are never going to be 'star' disciplines;
b) even in disciplines where there are stars, those stars benefit immeasurably from having non-star academics around them. Whether that's people to do the unsexy research legwork that provides the data and tools for the brilliant new idea, or people to hang around the cafeteria and never have their own idea but help improve everyone else's ideas by poking holes in them, or just people to actually waste time teaching all those annoying students, a faculty that consists only of the best and brightest will not be the best or brightest faculty...;
c) whether your work is being cited by other people a lot is a metric that captures part of what it is to be a succesful academic; but it's only a small part. Like all operationalised metrics, it allows a lot of value to slip through the mesh, and like all operationalised metrics it can be and will be gamed.


The underlying problem of academia, however, is that there's a fundamental market incentive mismatch: what we're paying for isn't want we say we want.

In fact, there's two paradoxes:
a) academics, and much of the public, believes universities are there to pursue wisdom and knowledge; the government believes they are there to "prepare young people for the real world of work". Academics therefore want to focus on research on valuable and interesting problems; but incentives are set up to force a focus on teaching, and in particular on teaching 'useful' subjects.
b) the government wants universities to produce a certain workforce. But their free market convictions mean that the actual incentives are driven by what the prospective students want, not the government, and what the students want often isn't what the government wants (OR what academics want...)



*I'm reminded of Derek Parfit. As legend has it, after the publication of his seminal work (Reasons and Persons), he persuaded the university authorities to give him a special chair, making him immune from both teaching and publication requirements, so that he could concentrate fully on writing the eagerly-awaited sequel. Then he spent the next 30 years arguing that jobs like his were a terrible mistake, and campaigning to prevent any similar post ever being awarded again. And also wandering around the town photographing things. I remember being amused that the Philosophy Faculty was unable to get him to actually write his damn book (excerpts of it were handed around as a trade secret in my time as a student - we were to be enlightened by it but forbidden from referencing it directly - but not published until years later, and the final volume was posthumous), but HAD managed to get him to contribute most of the photos on the Faculty website...
I can't say there's a single part of this that I disagree with (as far as I'm reading it). Universities are such a weird place. Part way between "knowledge for knowledge's sake" and "here's your educated workforce"
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien »

Meh. I'm on the side of "knowledge for knowledge's sake" if I'm to be on any side (only because I see this justification declining in favor of the other). There's a part of me that wishes we could go back to the days of a college degree not being seen as a necessary base requirement for any job above "burger flipper". There's value in education for education's sake and not simply a means to churn out workers and teach the "useful" subjects. I never want to see the humanities die in favor of STEM.

Of course I have a bias being a linguistics major and being the son of a university professor who teaches classics. [>_<]
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 »

Well the petition ended up getting 34000 signatures in the end, which is pretty cool

The University Executive Board, though, voted in favour of a proposal for closing the department, but has suggested merging human osteology and cultural heritage into other departments (which ones, I don't know yet). The proposal will be discussing by the University Senate on the 23rd of June, and the final decision on the proposal will be made by the University Council on the 12th of July, so there's still time, I guess.

There's obviously a fair amount of people who are tad peeved with the vote, but at least it's not final yet. On the other hand, someone at the university said "[t]he university is committed to retaining areas of strength in archaeology teaching and research at Sheffield" and "we will continue to play a role in our local communities and honour our commitment to all current students who will receive high-quality teaching and support", which doesn't fill me with hope. If that's what being said after choosing to close (most of) an already "strong" department, well...
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas »

sangi39 wrote: 26 May 2021 19:47 "[t]he university is committed to retaining areas of strength in archaeology teaching and research at Sheffield"

"we will continue to play a role in our local communities and honour our commitment to all current students who will receive high-quality teaching and support"
Corporate speak.

It never ends well.

Those sentences should probably go into the translation challenge, because while the words appear to be English, they actually aren't.

the university is committed --- no it's not, this actually means "we're throwing you under the bus"

retaining --- disposing of

areas of strength --- departments we've already determined are either weak or we in the Senate a/o Council have no interest in

teaching and research --- useless to developing our financial strength

we will continue to play a role in our local communities --- we will continue to seek more avenues of funding within the community

honour our commitment --- and develop stronger & more utilitarian programmes

all current students --- our beloved ca$h cows, now and for decades to come through tuition, alumni support scams and benevolent societies

high-quality teaching and support --- except for those berks that chose, ahem, archaeology over IT, Cyber, AI or any of our far more lucrative STEM offerings
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Re: The Sixth Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis »

So my friend who has the corpus had said he'd complete an updated list of the 30,000 most common words once his corpus reached 190 million running words, or "tokens". It turned out one of the subcorpora got so unexpectedly large that he's now going to call the corpus finished once it reaches 210 million words, instead of 200 million as was originally planned. He says he's reached 190 million words now, but this means no updated 30,000-word list until he reaches 200 million running words (and then one more when the corpus is complete).

He has, however, sent me an alphabetical list of roughly the top 11,000 words in English . . . most of which I already have in my Kankonian dictionary.

A freely distributable list: a-learner
Spoiler:
a
aback
abandon
abbey
abdomen
abdominal
abduct
abduction
abide
ability
able
abnormal
abnormality
aboard
abolish
aboriginal
abort
abortion
abound
about
above
abroad
abrupt
abruptly
abs
absence
absent
absolute
absolutely
absorb
absorption
abstract
absurd
abundance
abundant
abuse
abusive
abyss
AC
academia
academic
academy
accelerate
acceleration
accent
accept
acceptable
acceptance
access
accessible
accessory
accident
accidental
accidentally
acclaim
accommodate
accommodation
accompany
accomplish
accomplishment
accordance
according
accordingly
account
accountability
accountable
accountant
accumulate
accumulation
accuracy
accurate
accurately
accusation
accusative
accuse
accustomed
ace
ache
achieve
achievement
Achilles
acid
acidic
acknowledge
acknowledgment
acne
acorn
acoustic
acquaint
acquaintance
acquire
acquisition
acquit
acre
across
acrylic
act
action
activate
active
actively
activism
activist
activity
actor
actress
actual
actually
acupuncture
acute
ad/AD
adapt
adaptation
add
addict
addiction
addictive
addition
additional
additionally
additive
address
adequate
adequately
ADHD
adhere
adjacent
adjective
adjust
adjustment
admin
administer
administration
administrative
administrator
admiral
admiration
admire
admirer
admission
admit
admittedly
adolescence
adolescent
adopt
adoption
adorable
adore
adorn
adrenaline
adult
adulthood
advance
advancement
advantage
advent
adventure
adventurous
adverb
adversary
adverse
advertise
advertisement
advertiser
advice
advise
adviser
advisory
advocacy
advocate
aerial
aerospace
aesthetic
afar
affair
affect
affection
affiliate
affiliation
affinity
affirm
affirmative
afflict
affluent
afford
affordable
Afghan
Afghanistan
afloat
aforementioned
afraid
Africa
African
afro
after
afterlife
aftermath
afternoon
afterward
again
against
agave
age
agency
agenda
agent
aggravate
aggregate
aggression
aggressive
aggressively
agitate
ago
agonize
agony
agree
agreement
agricultural
agriculture
ah
aha
ahead
ahem
AI
aid
aide
AIDS
ail
ailment
aim
ain't
air
airborne
aircraft
airline
airman
airplane
airport
airstrike
airway
aisle
aka
akin
Alabama
alarm
alas
Alaska
albatross
albeit
Alberta
album
Albuquerque
alcohol
alcoholic
alcoholism
ale
Aleppo
alert
Alexandria
algae
algebra
algorithm
alibi
alien
alienate
alienation
align
alignment
alike
alive
all
Allah
allegation
allege
allegedly
allegiance
allergen
allergic
allergy
alleviate
alley
alliance
alligator
allocate
allow
allowance
allure
ally
almighty
almond
almost
alone
along
alongside
aloud
alpha
alphabet
alpine
already
alright
also
altar
alter
alternate
alternative
alternatively
although
altitude
alto
altogether
aluminum
alumnus
always
Alzheimer's
am
amass
amateur
amaze
amazement
amazingly
Amazon
ambassador
amber
ambiguity
ambiguous
ambition
ambitious
ambulance
ambush
amen
amend
amendment
amenity
America
American
amid
amidst
amigo
amino
Amish
ammonia
ammunition
amnesia
amnesty
among
amongst
amount
amp
amphibian
ample
amplifier
amplify
Amsterdam
amuse
amusement
an
anaesthesia
anaesthetic
anal
analogue
analogy
analysis
analyst
analytic
analytical
analyze
anarchist
anarchy
anatomy
ancestor
ancestral
ancestry
anchor
ancient
and
android
anecdote
anemia
anew
angel
anger
angle
Anglo
angrily
angry
anguish
animal
animate
animation
anime
anise
ankle
anniversary
announce
announcement
announcer
annoy
annoyance
annual
annually
anomaly
anonymity
anonymous
another
answer
ant
Antarctic
Antarctica
antelope
antenna
anthem
anthology
anthropologist
anthropology
antibiotic
antibody
antic
anticipate
anticipation
antidepressant
antidote
antioxidant
antique
antiquity
antisemitism
antler
anus
anxiety
anxious
anxiously
any
anybody
anyhow
anymore
anyone
anything
anytime
anyway
anywhere
Apache
apart
apartheid
apartment
ape
apex
apocalypse
apocalyptic
apologize
apology
app
appall
apparatus
apparel
apparent
apparently
appeal
appear
appearance
appendix
appetite
appetizer
applaud
applause
apple
appliance
applicable
applicant
application
apply
appoint
appointment
appreciate
appreciation
apprehend
apprentice
approach
appropriate
appropriately
appropriation
approval
approve
approximate
approximately
apricot
April
apron
apt
aquarium
Aquarius
aquatic
Arab
Arabia
Arabian
Arabic
arbitrary
arbor
arc
arcade
arch
archaeological
archaeologist
archaeology
archbishop
archer
architect
architectural
architecture
archive
Arctic
are
area
arena
aren't
Argentina
arguably
argue
argument
Aries
arise
Arizona
ark
Arkansas
Arlington
arm
armchair
armor
armpit
army
aroma
arose
around
arouse
arrange
arrangement
array
arrest
arrival
arrive
arrogance
arrogant
arrow
arse
arsenal
arsenic
art
artery
arthritis
artichoke
article
articulate
artifact
artificial
artillery
artist
artistic
artwork
as
ascend
ash
ashamed
ashore
Asia
Asian
aside
ask
asleep
asparagus
aspect
aspen
Asperger's
asphalt
aspiration
aspire
aspirin
ass
assassin
assassinate
assassination
assault
assemble
assembly
assert
assertion
assess
assessment
asset
asshole
assign
assignment
assist
assistance
assistant
associate
association
assorted
assortment
assume
assumption
assurance
assure
asteroid
asthma
astonish
astound
astray
astrology
astronaut
astronomer
astronomical
astronomy
asylum
at
ate
atheism
atheist
Athens
athlete
athletic
Atlanta
Atlantic
atlas
ATM
atmosphere
atmospheric
atom
atomic
atop
atrocity
attach
attachment
attack
attacker
attain
attempt
attend
attendance
attendant
attendee
attention
attest
attic
attire
attitude
attorney
attract
attraction
attractive
attribute
auburn
auction
audible
audience
audio
audit
audition
auditorium
augment
August
aunt
aura
aurora
Austin
Australia
Australian
Austria
Austrian
authentic
authenticity
author
authoritarian
authority
authorization
authorize
autism
autistic
auto
autobiography
autograph
automate
automatic
automatically
automobile
autonomous
autonomy
autopsy
autumn
auxiliary
avail
availability
available
avalanche
avatar
avenger
avenue
average
avert
aviation
avid
avocado
avoid
aw
await
awake
awaken
award
aware
awareness
away
awe
awesome
awful
awfully
awhile
awkward
awkwardly
awoke
axe
axis
aye
Aztec
babble
babe
baboon
baby
Babylon
babysit
babysitter
bachelor
back
backbone
backdrop
backfire
background
backlash
backpack
backseat
backside
backstage
backup
backward
backyard
bacon
bacteria
bacterial
bad
badass
badge
badger
badly
bae
baffle
bag
bagel
baggage
baggy
Baghdad
bah
Bahamas
bail
bailout
bait
bake
baker
bakery
balance
balcony
bald
bale
Bali
ball
ballad
ballerina
ballet
ballistic
balloon
ballot
ballroom
balm
Baltimore
bam
bamboo
ban
banana
band
bandage
bandanna
bandit
bang
Bangkok
Bangladesh
banish
banjo
bank
banker
bankrupt
bankruptcy
banner
banquet
banzai
Baptist
baptize
bar
barb
barbarian
barbecue
barber
Barcelona
bare
barefoot
barely
barf
bargain
barge
bark
barley
barn
baron
barracks
barrel
barren
barricade
barrier
bartender
base
baseball
baseline
basement
bash
basic
basically
basil
basin
basis
bask
basket
basketball
bass
bassist
bastard
bat
batch
bath
bathe
bathroom
bathtub
baton
battalion
batter
battery
battle
battlefield
battleground
bay
BB
BC
be
beach
beacon
bead
beak
beam
bean
beanie
bear
beard
bearer
beast
beat
beaten
beau
beautiful
beautifully
beauty
beaver
became
because
beckon
become
bed
bedbug
bedroom
bedside
bedtime
bee
beef
been
beep
beer
beet
beetle
before
beforehand
befriend
beg
began
beggar
begin
beginner
begun
behalf
behave
behavior
behavioral
behead
behind
behold
beige
Beijing
Beirut
Belfast
Belgian
Belgium
belief
believable
believe
believer
bell
belle
bellow
belly
belong
beloved
below
belt
bench
benchmark
bend
beneath
beneficial
beneficiary
benefit
Bengal
Benghazi
benign
bent
beret
Berkeley
Berlin
berry
beside
besides
best
bestow
bet
beta
betray
betrayal
better
between
beverage
beware
bewilder
beyond
bi
bias
Bible
biblical
bicycle
bid
big
bigot
bigotry
bxker
bikini
bilateral
bill
billboard
billion
billionaire
bin
binary
bind
binder
binge
bingo
binocular
bio
biodiversity
biography
biological
biologist
biology
biopsy
bipartisan
bipolar
birch
bird
birdie
Birmingham
birth
birthday
birthplace
biscuit
bisexual
bishop
bison
bit
bitch
Bitcoin
bite
bitten
bitter
bitterly
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interval
intervene
intervention
interview
interviewer
intestine
intimacy
intimate
intimidate
intimidation
into
intolerance
intoxicate
intricate
intrigue
intro
introduce
introduction
introvert
intrude
intruder
intrusion
intuition
intuitive
invade
invader
invasion
invasive
invent
invention
inventor
inventory
invert
invest
investigate
investigation
investigative
investigator
investment
investor
invincible
invisible
invitation
invite
invoke
involuntary
involve
involvement
inward
ion
iOS
Iowa
IP
iPad
iPhone
iPod
IQ
Iran
Iranian
Iraq
Iraqi
Ireland
iris
Irish
iron
ironic
ironically
irony
irrational
irregular
irrelevant
irresistible
irresponsible
irrigation
irritate
irritation
is
Islam
Islamic
Islamist
island
isle
isn't
isolate
isolation
isotope
Israel
Israeli
issue
Istanbul
it
Italian
Italy
itch
itchy
it'd
item
iteration
itinerary
it'll
its
it's
itself
IV
I've
ivory
ivy
jab
jackal
jackass
jacket
jackpot
Jacksonville
jade
jagged
jaguar
Jah
jail
jalapeño
jam
Jamaica
Jamaican
janitor
January
Japan
Japanese
jar
jasmine
Java
jaw
jazz
jealous
jealousy
jeans
Jedi
jeep
jeez
Jehovah
jelly
jellyfish
jeopardize
jeopardy
jerk
jersey/Jersey
Jerusalem
jet
Jew
jewel
jewelry
Jewish
jihad
jihadist
jingle
jive
job
jock
jockey
jog
join
joint
joke
joker
jolly
jolt
journal
journalism
journalist
journey
joy
joyful
joyous
Jr.
Judaism
judge
judgment
judicial
judiciary
jug
juggle
juice
juicy
jukebox
July
jumbo
jump
jumper
jumpsuit
junction
June
jungle
junior
junk
junkie
Jupiter
Jurassic
jurisdiction
juror
jury
just
justice
justification
justify
juvenile
Kabul
kale
kangaroo
Kansas
karaoke
karate
karma
kayak
Kazakhstan
keen
keep
keeper
keg
Kent
Kentucky
Kenya
kept
kernel
ketchup
kettle
key
keyboard
keyword
khaki
kick
kid
kiddo
kidnap
kidnapper
kidney
kill
killer
kilogram
kilometer
kin
kind
kindergarten
kindle
kindly
kindness
king
kingdom
kiss
kit
kitchen
kite
kitten
kiwi
Klingon
knack
knead
knee
kneel
knelt
knew
knife
knight
knit
knob
knock
knot
know
knowingly
knowledge
knowledgeable
known
knuckle
koala
Korea
Korean
kosher
Kremlin
kung fu
Kurd
Kurdish
Kyoto
lab
label
labor
laboratory
laborer
lace
lack
lad
ladder
laden
lady
ladybug
lag
lagoon
laid
lake
lama
lamb
lambda
lame
lament
lamp
lance
land
landfill
landlord
landmark
landscape
landslide
lane
language
lantern
lap
lapse
laptop
large
largely
lark
larva
Las Vegas
lasagna
laser
lash
last
lastly
latch
late
lately
latex
Latin
Latino
latitude
latte
latter
laugh
laughter
launch
launcher
launder
laundry
laurel
lava
lavender
lavish
law
lawmaker
lawn
lawsuit
lawyer
lax
lay
layer
layout
lazy
lead
leader
leadership
leaf
leafy
league
leak
lean
leap
leapt
learn
learner
Last edited by Khemehekis on 21 Jun 2021 03:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 86,336 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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