Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

Post by eldin raigmore »

Titus Flavius wrote: 18 Apr 2021 15:38 I'm an INTP.
So am I!
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

Post by Khemehekis »

eldin raigmore wrote: 19 Apr 2021 04:15
Titus Flavius wrote: 18 Apr 2021 15:38 I'm an INTP.
So am I!
Would you describe yourself as more hunter-gatherer than farmer (or than pastoralist), eldin?
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

Post by gestaltist »

Regarding MBTI, Sal is right that it's pseudoscience. Even worse, there's about 100 versions of MBTI on the web, with different goals, different type descriptions, and other differences. I wouldn't agree that it is complete nonsense, though. At it's core, it's an outgrowth of Jungian ideas, and while it hasn't been definitely proven, it hasn't been disproven either. In addition, the most popular "MBTI" test people take (16personalities.com) is really Big Five dressed up in the more marketable MBTI clothes. Sal is also right that the MBTI Institute functions in a questionable matter but there are other researchers who try other angles of research.

For me, personally, MBTI is useful to assess faster what behaviors to expect from people, and my anecdotal evidence is that there are at least some patterns MBTI made me alert to that seem to occur regularly in people.

As to the hunter vs gatherer stuff, it does sound like rubbish.
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Khemehekis wrote: 20 Apr 2021 03:16 Would you describe yourself as more hunter-gatherer than farmer (or than pastoralist), eldin?
No, I wouldn’t.
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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gestaltist wrote: 20 Apr 2021 13:59 As to the hunter vs gatherer stuff, it does sound like rubbish.
Quite. Especially since both of them get the source of western achievement wrong. Khemehekis called me out correctly. It's just a matter of history where the scientific revolution and the technological explosion began, where it flourished and how it happened, stemming from the inception and foundation of the university right up through to modern times. The fingerprints of the Church are all over the place -- and one thing the Church isn't, and has never been, is a "hunter-gather" type culture! It's got a pretty firm "farmer-pastoralist" foundation (with just a touch of "fisher-pearl diver" thrown in for good measure!).

But even with the firm foundation, the west has certainly not fallen behind the rest of the world in its delight with pseudoscience. Whether it's Creationism or Homeopathy or Critical Race or Generational Theory or any of dozens and scores of quack ideas, we gobble them right up! Just look at how many school systems have drunk the CRT koolaid, and they just teach that rubbish like it's the real deal. *shrug*

But frankly, I've always enjoyed a good romp through the tangled webs of pseudoscience. There's just so much material for worldbuilding in those old (and not so old) ideas! I think the whole hunter-gather vs pastoralist-farmer thing is a fascinating concept, and interesting (at least to me) to see how it's playing out in the World. I've been studying homeopathic medicine, theosophy and some other odd things of late and have found loads of useful material for the World.
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

Post by Khemehekis »

elemtilas wrote: 21 Apr 2021 02:38 But even with the firm foundation, the west has certainly not fallen behind the rest of the world in its delight with pseudoscience. Whether it's Creationism or Homeopathy or Critical Race or Generational Theory or any of dozens and scores of quack ideas, we gobble them right up! Just look at how many school systems have drunk the CRT koolaid, and they just teach that rubbish like it's the real deal. *shrug*

But frankly, I've always enjoyed a good romp through the tangled webs of pseudoscience. There's just so much material for worldbuilding in those old (and not so old) ideas! I think the whole hunter-gather vs pastoralist-farmer thing is a fascinating concept, and interesting (at least to me) to see how it's playing out in the World. I've been studying homeopathic medicine, theosophy and some other odd things of late and have found loads of useful material for the World.
I agree that pseudoscience and outdated scientific theories are good springboards for conworlding ideas. For instance: how would things work differently if the aether-and-phlogiston theory were true? (In fact, the Kankonian word for "Tooth Fairy science" is zurmas na ksyagitz, which translates as "phlogiston science".) Or: how would a conworld develop if it went exactly down the cycle of "turnings" and generational archetypes described in the Howe & Strauss generational theory? (One of the problems therewith is that it describes history too much like a circle, when actually it's more of a spiral (see: Dinotopia).)
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Khemehekis wrote: 26 Apr 2021 00:15 I agree that pseudoscience and outdated scientific theories are good springboards for conworlding ideas. For instance: how would things work differently if the aether-and-phlogiston theory were true? (In fact, the Kankonian word for "Tooth Fairy science" is zurmas na ksyagitz, which translates as "phlogiston science".) Or: how would a conworld develop if it went exactly down the cycle of "turnings" and generational archetypes described in the Howe & Strauss generational theory? (One of the problems therewith is that it describes history too much like a circle, when actually it's more of a spiral (see: Dinotopia).)
Indeed!

Re aether, I think Einstein himself points the way to a fascinating consideration of aether as a substance/property of a universe. The Font of All Knowledge records this quote:
We may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an aether. According to the general theory of relativity space without aether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this aether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.
Consider a region of a universe near you where, much like our own, aether is as Dr. E. describes, space itself has certain physical qualities (aether) that allow the propagation of various waveparticlethingies like photons and gravitons. But let us thìnk about space without aether! Might it not be possible that such regions serve as islands in a vast ocean, where rushing waves of gravity and even light, break upon those plutonian shoars, become divided and refracted without ever affecting the denizens of those regions? How might some bold starcaptain steer her ship of exploration? Should she bypass the anomaly or dive right in? And what her mighty vessel find on the other side?
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

Post by Khemehekis »

Huh. Never knew that Einstein used the word "aether" in such a way. Could he have been describing wormholes (which are employed by intergalactic travelers in the Lehola Galaxy)? Or maybe interdimensional portals, some of which can take us into the fifth dimension and beyond where we can meet our loved ones who have passed away?

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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Khemehekis wrote: 26 Apr 2021 06:33 Huh. Never knew that Einstein used the word "aether" in such a way. Could he have been describing wormholes (which are employed by intergalactic travelers in the Lehola Galaxy)? Or maybe interdimensional portals, some of which can take us into the fifth dimension and beyond where we can meet our loved ones who have passed away?

Fifth Dimensional Star Book
Interesting vision that!

I gather he wasn't referring specifically to wormholes, but rather to space-time itself. Could be wrong!

As for wormholes and portals, I don't know if they can take us "to" other dimensions. Dimensions are simply what we experience and understand of space-time. For example, we can look inside a two dimensional house simply because we exist outside of 2D space-time and can "look over the wall" and see clearly what's inside, much to the existential fright of the poor 2D inhabitants who've just experienced someone entering their house through an unbroken, undamaged wall. Denê have the potential and can hone the capacity to look inside a three dimensional house simply because they exist, at least partly, outside of 3D space-time and can learn how step fully outside of it and they can "look through the walls, floors and ceilings".

I don't know whether or not the fifth dimension is the equivalent of eternal life or not, but, obviously the fact is we'll see and meet them again at some point in time that, for us, is the future, and for them is the present. Keep in mind: their existence is no longer tied to time and space. They see you as you were, as you are and as you will be. They can see Schroedinger's cat.
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Khemehekis wrote: 30 Aug 2019 02:40
- Highly rebellious? I don't know. But many hunter-gather societies are almost military, at least when it comes to certain critical tasks, and it's not like the history of civilisation is one of meek obedience...
That last sentence is true. There have been wars and revolutions, not just from barbarians, but within civilizations. I think what Hofer is getting at, though, is what Mark Rosenfelder wrote in The Conlanger's Lexipedia: "Premodern agricultural states (but not hunter-gatherers or nomads) are big on authority. Rulers are to be obeyed even when they're lunatics; savants advuse matching one's belief system to the state's; fathers may have life-or-death powers over even adult children." (p. 330)
Given what Mark Rosenfelder wrote about "premodern agricultural states", I wonder what he'd have to say about Mr. Hofer's farmer-versus-hunter-gatherer theory.

Anyone who's active on the ZBB want to ask him?
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Economic strategies aren't necessarily exclusive of each other - e.g. the mixed strategy in pre-20cen Appalachia combining agriculture (of corn, distilled into whiskey and thus used as both a trade good and a local medium of exchange) and hunting and gathering (esp. of medicinal plants for global export, most notably ginseng).

To answer the question, I don't hold with psychology or whatever but I've finally planted the damn amaranth
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Nortaneous wrote: 24 May 2022 10:50 Economic strategies aren't necessarily exclusive of each other - e.g. the mixed strategy in pre-20cen Appalachia combining agriculture (of corn, distilled into whiskey and thus used as both a trade good and a local medium of exchange) and hunting and gathering (esp. of medicinal plants for global export, most notably ginseng).
Excellent point! Of course, within any modern society, we'll find individuals who fit Hofer's description of farmers, AND individuals who fit his description of hunter-gatherers, AND individuals who fit his description of pastoralists.
To answer the question, I don't hold with psychology or whatever but I've finally planted the damn amaranth
[:D] Is this your way of saying that you've just settled down?
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Khemehekis wrote: 24 May 2022 23:43
To answer the question, I don't hold with psychology or whatever but I've finally planted the damn amaranth
[:D] Is this your way of saying that you've just settled down?
No, I was putting it off because there was a heat wave and I was lazy, but then I figured I ought to at least halfass it. Yield will probably be low, but I'm not aiming for full self-sufficiency or commercialization (yet) and the goosefoot is more important anyway. Now I have to figure out what to do with everything that's apparently decided to germinate after doing nothing in a seed starter for two months, most of which I've completely forgotten the botanical identity of, although some of them are apparently tomatoes? I'll have to clear more land for that... (which is fine, all the turfgrasses here are horribly invasive)
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Nortaneous wrote: 27 May 2022 06:04 No, I was putting it off because there was a heat wave and I was lazy, but then I figured I ought to at least halfass it. Yield will probably be low, but I'm not aiming for full self-sufficiency or commercialization (yet) and the goosefoot is more important anyway. Now I have to figure out what to do with everything that's apparently decided to germinate after doing nothing in a seed starter for two months, most of which I've completely forgotten the botanical identity of, although some of them are apparently tomatoes? I'll have to clear more land for that... (which is fine, all the turfgrasses here are horribly invasive)
I see. So you were literally talking about gardening. I thought, since amaranth was a staple of Sumerians, one of the very first agricultural societies, that planting the damn amaranth was a metaphor for the very beginning of becoming a "farmer" (as Hofer describes people with farmer psychology).
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

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Khemehekis wrote: 27 May 2022 23:07
Nortaneous wrote: 27 May 2022 06:04 No, I was putting it off because there was a heat wave and I was lazy, but then I figured I ought to at least halfass it. Yield will probably be low, but I'm not aiming for full self-sufficiency or commercialization (yet) and the goosefoot is more important anyway. Now I have to figure out what to do with everything that's apparently decided to germinate after doing nothing in a seed starter for two months, most of which I've completely forgotten the botanical identity of, although some of them are apparently tomatoes? I'll have to clear more land for that... (which is fine, all the turfgrasses here are horribly invasive)
I see. So you were literally talking about gardening. I thought, since amaranth was a staple of Sumerians, one of the very first agricultural societies, that planting the damn amaranth was a metaphor for the very beginning of becoming a "farmer" (as Hofer describes people with farmer psychology).
Yes, completely literal - I moved pretty far out when the plague hit and decided I might as well take up gardening (and foraging, since most of the land is too forested for any crops I know of, and most of the soil is clay and rocks)
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Re: Are you a hunter-gatherer or a farmer?

Post by Khemehekis »

Nortaneous wrote: 28 May 2022 00:28 Yes, completely literal - I moved pretty far out when the plague hit and decided I might as well take up gardening (and foraging, since most of the land is too forested for any crops I know of, and most of the soil is clay and rocks)
Cool. Amaranth's a neat crop to grow -- I first tried it in a granola a few years ago.
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