A total redo of my language.

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wakeagainstthefall
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A total redo of my language.

Post by wakeagainstthefall »

I have now moved past what Trailsend calls "stage 1" and have realized that my conlang is totally lame and unoriginal. Now, my goal is to make a language that has a lot of Christian symbolism and such, and also has a connection to nature, if that makes any sort of fathomable sense. If fathomable is a word... Anyway, linguistically, I want it to have a few unique things, but I'd like the grammar to be a lot like Ancient Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I have a few ideas and just wanted some feedback on if it looks pretty good or not.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by MrKrov »

wakeagainstthefall wrote:I have now moved past what Trailsend calls "stage 1" and have realized that my conlang is totally lame and unoriginal. Now, my goal is to make a language that has a lot of Christian symbolism and such, and also has a connection to nature, if that makes any sort of fathomable sense. If fathomable is a word... Anyway, linguistically, I want it to have a few unique things, but I'd like the grammar to be a lot like Ancient Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I have a few ideas and just wanted some feedback on if it looks pretty good or not.


There is my feedback on what you have presented. Also, fathomable is a word.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

What aspects (non-grammatical) of those grammars are you looking to take. And by symbolism, what do you mean exactly? I have thought about taking a cue from Tamarian (from Star Trek TNG season 5's episode Darmok), though using Christian symbolism that way. I haven't and I doubt I will, but if that is the kind of thing you mean, I'd like to see it and help!
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by wakeagainstthefall »

MrKrov wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:I have now moved past what Trailsend calls "stage 1" and have realized that my conlang is totally lame and unoriginal. Now, my goal is to make a language that has a lot of Christian symbolism and such, and also has a connection to nature, if that makes any sort of fathomable sense. If fathomable is a word... Anyway, linguistically, I want it to have a few unique things, but I'd like the grammar to be a lot like Ancient Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I have a few ideas and just wanted some feedback on if it looks pretty good or not.


There is my feedback on what you have presented. Also, fathomable is a word.
Ah, MrKrov, always most helpful...
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by wakeagainstthefall »

Thakowsaizmu wrote:What aspects (non-grammatical) of those grammars are you looking to take. And by symbolism, what do you mean exactly? I have thought about taking a cue from Tamarian (from Star Trek TNG season 5's episode Darmok), though using Christian symbolism that way. I haven't and I doubt I will, but if that is the kind of thing you mean, I'd like to see it and help!
What aspects (non-grammatical) of those grammars... what
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

Aspect is a grammatical term. I didn't want to confuse you. I guess I did, heh.

What parts of those Grammars do you want? Each is pretty different from the other. Hebrew is Semitic, and though both Latin and Koiné are Indo-European languages, they belong to different families.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by wakeagainstthefall »

Right, Latin's Italic and Koine's Hellenic, so I want my language to be mostly like them, with a few aspects (non-grammatical) of Hebrew, such as consonantal stems and such.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Sankon »

Your questions are so broad I don't really know what you're asking and how to answer you.

I would recommend reading up on the languages and structures you wish to emulate, starting with their respective Wikipedia pages.

Then I would click on the links on the bottom to read and learn more about the languages.

Then I would come with more specific questions, perhaps you don't understand something, or you're wondering how some interesting structure came about, or something else. Remember, the more specific the questions you ask, the better we are able to answer you.

Conlanging requires a lot of research into linguistics, if only to break your mind outside of your L1's mold, so as to avoid creating ciphers (unless that's what you want to do, but you clearly don't want to do that).
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

wakeagainstthefall wrote:Right, Latin's Italic and Koine's Hellenic, so I want my language to be mostly like them, with a few aspects (non-grammatical) of Hebrew, such as consonantal stems and such.
Consonantal system as in the tri-root system? Or as in the consonants present in Hebrew? I assume you mean Biblical Hebrew.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Micamo »

Firstly, I'm not quite sure what a "language using christian symbolism" even means. Do you mean a Toki Pona-esque thing? I'd recommend against that sort of route for obvious reasons.

Secondly, what type of christianity do you want to adapt the language for? Christianity has lots of branches, some of which have very different ideologies from one another on some very basic forms. Protestantism or Catholicism? Jehova's Witnesses or Mormonism? Maybe even one of the countless blends of christian and indigenous thought that sprung up wherever the missionaries went?

Finally, here's an idea I had that you just might be able to use: A special fourth person for a monotheistic diety, expressed in the verbal person marking paradigm. So something like "watch-PROG-4.NOM-2.ACC" -> "God is watching you."
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Omzinesý »

Christian symbols is a nice idea - though it would mean nothing.
I think it's not relevant what they are or where they came from (I suppose you have an idea.), but how are you going to use them? Is the language full of double-meanings -an apple means sexuality and the evil (which used to be the same thing in Christianity), and furthermore the fruit. (Lat Malus = 'apple' 'bad') - We remember Eve - the forbidden fruit.
All sentences have to contain the Christian part "God willing..."

I like the language! - I don't know anyhting of it.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by xijlwya »

wakeagainstthefall wrote:I have now moved past what Trailsend calls "stage 1" and have realized that my conlang is totally lame and unoriginal. Now, my goal is to make a language that has a lot of Christian symbolism and such, and also has a connection to nature, if that makes any sort of fathomable sense. If fathomable is a word... Anyway, linguistically, I want it to have a few unique things, but I'd like the grammar to be a lot like Ancient Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. I have a few ideas and just wanted some feedback on if it looks pretty good or not.

Hi wakeagainstthefall,

Since you are the first one to come to this forum and seek help, you will get a lot of attention here now. To be honest, I don't know if that's the best thing for you know. As it seems to me from your extremely vague description above, you are insecure how to start and feel overwhelmed by the project "create a conlang". You just came up with a few very basic pillars of your language (which is good), but frankly nothing more. Although MrKrov's comment was not helpful at all, it was also understandable. There is nothing to give hints on or to show some links to or anything. For me, it seems like you're really wanting to create a conlang, but you don't see a way to get into all the unsurmountable complexities that come with it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, since I blatantly inferred things about you from a forum post.
Here are my hints for you.
  • First of all you said "redo", but actually said you want to make a new language. That's the first point to decide: Make a entirely new language or change your old one.
  • Second, as Sankon already posted, read up on the natlangs that are of interest to you - remember that no one can do this for you. A large part of conlanging is reading.
  • Third, give us some examples. They will make you think about how to incorporate things and spark off new ideas and will give us something to comment on.
  • Forth, get rid of the thought that something you come up with can be good or bad. It's all just up to you. It's just a kind of unwritten codex in this forum that a conlang has to have a certain level of depth and thought put into it. So don't ask whether something is good or bad, but ask for more rational factors like "is this plausible?", "with which language would you associate that?", "does that occur in a natlang I should know?". Because asking for mere opinions will get you a wide field of various answers that will either depress you or cheer you up according to the taste of the individuals on the board.
    Fifth, just do it! Come up with something. You cannot be any more vague than you are now. Give some examples of what you think. You may change them anytime. But this is a board. It is there to discuss things. And right now, we have almost nothing to discuss.
I didn't intent to be impolite in any way. I want to encourage you to let us have a look into what you think.

To quote a famous german author Erich Kästner: "Es gibt nichts gutes außer man tut es." (There is nothing good except one does it.)
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

First of all you said "redo", but actually said you want to make a new language. That's the first point to decide: Make a entirely new language or change your old one.
Interesting that when it goes to redo my language, I do both. I create the new version under new name as spin-off: dialect or language related to the original. Then I can develop them both simultaneously.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by wakeagainstthefall »

Omzinesý wrote:Christian symbols is a nice idea - though it would mean nothing.
I think it's not relevant what they are or where they came from (I suppose you have an idea.), but how are you going to use them? Is the language full of double-meanings -an apple means sexuality and the evil (which used to be the same thing in Christianity), and furthermore the fruit. (Lat Malus = 'apple' 'bad') - We remember Eve - the forbidden fruit.
All sentences have to contain the Christian part "God willing..."

I like the language! - I don't know anyhting of it.
Yeah, I forgot to put anything down to show you all where I want it to go. Oops. And I already have the conlang, it just SUCKS right now and is about to be changed. And what do you mean "it would mean nothing?"
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Omzinesý »

wakeagainstthefall wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:Christian symbols is a nice idea - though it would mean nothing.
Yeah, I forgot to put anything down to show you all where I want it to go. Oops. And I already have the conlang, it just SUCKS right now and is about to be changed. And what do you mean "it would mean nothing?"
Somebody could call a few Latin loan words that hapen to handle Christianity Christian symbolism. Nothing very remarkable.
My meta-thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5760
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Ear of the Sphinx »

wakeagainstthefall wrote:I have now moved past what Trailsend calls "stage 1" and have realized that my conlang is totally lame and unoriginal. Now, my goal is to make a language that has a lot of Christian symbolism and such,
Mt 5, 37 wrote:
Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
:-D

But seriously, I like this idea.
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Thakowsaizmu »

What do you have so far that you like and want to keep?
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Valoski »

I saw it many times, but I didn't listen until recently. You need a focal point for the language. Base it heavily off another, have a CONCULTURE (the easiest) or (like me) build it on a philosophy. If you don't have that, it's very difficult to give any language a good form.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by wakeagainstthefall »

Omzinesý wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:Christian symbols is a nice idea - though it would mean nothing.
Yeah, I forgot to put anything down to show you all where I want it to go. Oops. And I already have the conlang, it just SUCKS right now and is about to be changed. And what do you mean "it would mean nothing?"
Somebody could call a few Latin loan words that hapen to handle Christianity Christian symbolism. Nothing very remarkable.
Ahh, I see what you mean. I mean just to have a LOT of Christian-related idioms and such. And also my letters in the alphabet are a separate declension and it's the only declension with a trial number; they each mean an object by themselves and they are metaphors for God. I don't really mean in nomine Christi, in nomine Patri type stuff. Metaphorical, and I don't want the language to be like Toki Pona (based on a philosophy.) But at the same time, I want a lot of Christian elements to it.
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Re: A total redo of my language.

Post by Rainchild »

First, when developing a language, it's important to distinguish the lexicon from the grammar. It's your lexicon of words, compounds, and idioms that will contain the Christian elements that you want in your language.

A good starting point would be to concentrate on making verbs whose meanings reflect your Christian beliefs. Assigning meanings to verbs in a conlang can be tons of fun, because one can make a one-word verb that stands for any act or state of affairs imaginable. If you wanted to, you could invent a language that has single-word verbs with meanings such as "not to know what an aglet is," "wipe the little green crumbs from the corners of one's eyes when one gets up in the morning," "turn down the volume of (an entertainment device with speakers) as one's ears adapt to the absence of other ambient sound," or "look at one's watch in order to communicate one's impatience."

Single-word verbs that reflect Christian beliefs might have translations such as the following:

to say mass
to help (someone whom one doesn't like) out of duty to the Lord
to turn the other cheek
to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's
to be bodily assumed to heaven
to possess original sin

... and so on. It's your language, so you can make up your own.

The grammar of your language won't contain the symbolism/Christian themes; it will simply specify the relationships among the words and compounds and idioms in your lexicon.

When I design an imaginary language, I usually come with ideas for a *core grammar* first. A *core grammar* is a list of clause patterns needed to make all the different types of uniclausal declarative sentences in the language. Uniclausal means "containing only one clause." Generally, a clause is a string of words that comprise one subject and one predicate. This definition doesn't always hold. If you wanted to, you could make your existential sentences have only a subject, or your impersonal sentences have only a predicate. But otherwise, a subject and predicate are what most declarative sentences have.

There are a number of things that your core grammar must communicate.

existence: X exists. There is X. X is extant, present, or available.
description: X has a quality. For example: X is red. X is obnoxious.
relationships including, but not limited to, equation and category relationships. Bruce Wayne is Batman. Batman is a superhero.

agent + action: X drops to the ground
non-agent + action: X falls
agent + action + patient: X eats Y

agent + action + patient (or theme) + beneficiary: X gives Y to Z

Not only is this list of things that core sentences must express not exhaustive; it's not really that exact by linguistic standards. The linguists on this list may wish to make it more exact, and expand on it.

Also, you may wish, for example, to have a special kind of sentence structures for other ideas like "X turns Y into Z" or "X had/made Y do (what the verb stands for). I offer the above list as a mere starting point.

The number of items on this list won't necessarily correspond to the number of different clause patterns that you will need. Let's imagine that, for my list, we only use one clause pattern: subject + verb + complement (SVC) We'd wind up with the following basic kinds of sentences:

existence: Subject + existential verb + dummy-complement. There's a boy. = Boy exist (dummy complement)
description: Subject + copular verb + complement. As in English: The boy is tall. The boy looks sad.

OR... you could eliminate predicate adjectives and just use adjectival nouns instead. The boy is a tall.one. The boy looks.to.be a sad.one.

relationships: Subject + copular verb + complement. As in English: Bruce Wayne is Batman. Batman is a superhero.

agent + action: Subject + verb + (dummy complement). The girl runs (dummy complement).
non-agent + action: Subject + verb + (dummy complement). The cactus dies (dummy complement).
agent + action + patient: Subject + verb + complement. As in English: X eats Y

agent + action + patient (or theme): The man gives.away his coat.

To make the equivalent of an English clause with an indirect object, you could make your indirect object into some kind of modifier, like a prepositional phrase.

"The man gave Mary his coat," could be, in your language, more like "The man gave.away his coat to Mary." The indirect object would just be a modifier of some kind that you could leave out of the sentence without making it ungrammatical, owing to your language having no verbs that require an indirect object.

***************************

I would like to emphasize that my example of a single-pattern core grammar that I just gave is only one of who-knows-how-many kinds of core grammars that a conlanger might design. Your core grammar might be completely different. Most core grammars have more than one clause pattern.

I trust that further input from others on this list will correct any errors I've made and expand on your list of options.

For now, I recommend that you work on the verbs, and figure out what kind of sentence structure you want your simplest sentences to have.

Jim G.
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