So it's time to make my language public
Re: So it's time to make my language public
If it makes you feel better about it, you can be sure that my language is intented to be everything but an auxlang. I have the ambition of having somebody learn how to speak Eil, but for fun and aesthetic reasons, not because it would be a good replcement for a natlang. I, personally, don't believe any auxlang is ever going to replace any other language on a large scale. Would you consider Eil an euroclone? Unfortunately my knowledge of linguistics is so limited that I'm sure there are a lot of interesting features that I would somehow add - if I only knew about them. I'm probably going to stick with european-linke languages for a while.
L1:
Fluent (on a good day):
Written:
Beginner:
Working on: ~ Eil
Fluent (on a good day):
Written:
Beginner:
Working on: ~ Eil
Re: So it's time to make my language public
And that's probably what most people speaking an euro-lang do at first. Those links were there to help. ;D
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6356
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: So it's time to make my language public
(I can't tell who or which post this should be a reply to.)
I don't think Esperanto does or did have a taxonomic lexicon.
Esperanto is the world's and history's most successful auxlang so far, as near as anyone can tell. (Certain natlangs are rumored to have started out as auxlangs, but most scholars think there's insufficient evidence for that; or in some cases too much evidence against that.)
As I recall, no auxlang with a taxonomic lexicon has been successful even a little bit.
There are major practical problems with the "taxonomic lexicon" idea.
(Not that I want to discourage Jarhead from trying it! At worst s/he'll (there are girl Marines) find out why it's hard to make it work.)
If I'm wrong, and Esperanto's lexicon is (or at least was) taxonomic, please show me a reference containing the proof? Or, provide your own set of examples.
I don't think that sounds very taxonomic.
I imagine someone on this thread has already posted a link to it? Or at least a link to something that contains a link to such a list?
Many conlangers make a "kitchen sink conlang" at some point -- one that's supposed to have all the features they've found out about and thought were cool. (The stereotype is that your first conlang is just a re-lexification of some natlang you're fluent in, e.g. your native L1, while your second conlang is a kitchen-sink conlang (KSlang).)
But certain features don't work so well with certain other features. IMO it's better to tackle them singly, or in pairs, or in groups of three.
In other words I recommend making your conlang as "average" as possible, with the exception of the one (or two or three) feature(s) you're interested in.
In your case you seem to be most interested in the taxonomic lexicon. I'd recommend that for this conlang you keep everything else as typical as you can.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I don't think Esperanto does or did have a taxonomic lexicon.
Esperanto is the world's and history's most successful auxlang so far, as near as anyone can tell. (Certain natlangs are rumored to have started out as auxlangs, but most scholars think there's insufficient evidence for that; or in some cases too much evidence against that.)
As I recall, no auxlang with a taxonomic lexicon has been successful even a little bit.
There are major practical problems with the "taxonomic lexicon" idea.
(Not that I want to discourage Jarhead from trying it! At worst s/he'll (there are girl Marines) find out why it's hard to make it work.)
If I'm wrong, and Esperanto's lexicon is (or at least was) taxonomic, please show me a reference containing the proof? Or, provide your own set of examples.
Spoiler:
Yeah. Usually a completed conlang has 1 speaker and 0 fluent speakers. It's an ambition to have 2 fluent speakers; that would make it a nose ahead of the average finished conlang. (Not even counting all the unfinished ones!)Jarhead wrote:If it makes you feel better about it, you can be sure that my language is intented to be everything but an auxlang. I have the ambition of having somebody learn how to speak Eil, but for fun and aesthetic reasons, not because it would be a good replcement for a natlang. I, personally, don't believe any auxlang is ever going to replace any other language on a large scale.
Somewhere there's a list of what the family-resemblance shopping-list of Standard Average European language features and characteristics are; and which of them are significantly more common in the SAE sprachbund (linguistic area) than in the world at large.Jarhead wrote:Would you consider Eil an euroclone? Unfortunately my knowledge of linguistics is so limited that I'm sure there are a lot of interesting features that I would somehow add - if I only knew about them. I'm probably going to stick with european-like languages for a while.
I imagine someone on this thread has already posted a link to it? Or at least a link to something that contains a link to such a list?
Many conlangers make a "kitchen sink conlang" at some point -- one that's supposed to have all the features they've found out about and thought were cool. (The stereotype is that your first conlang is just a re-lexification of some natlang you're fluent in, e.g. your native L1, while your second conlang is a kitchen-sink conlang (KSlang).)
But certain features don't work so well with certain other features. IMO it's better to tackle them singly, or in pairs, or in groups of three.
In other words I recommend making your conlang as "average" as possible, with the exception of the one (or two or three) feature(s) you're interested in.
In your case you seem to be most interested in the taxonomic lexicon. I'd recommend that for this conlang you keep everything else as typical as you can.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: So it's time to make my language public
I read them thoroughly with pleasureVisinoid wrote:And that's probably what most people speaking an euro-lang do at first. Those links were there to help. ;D
That's great news for me.eldin raigmore wrote: I don't think Esperanto does or did have a taxonomic lexicon.
I'm a guy and thank you for the incouragement :)There are major practical problems with the "taxonomic lexicon" idea.
(Not that I want to discourage Jarhead from trying it! At worst s/he'll (there are girl Marines) find out why it's hard to make it work.)
I'm going to have to check these out!Francis Lodwick's A Common Writing (1647) and The Groundwork or Foundation laid (or So Intended) for the Framing of a New Perfect Language and a Universal Common Writing (1652)
Sir Thomas Urquhart's Ekskybalauron (1651) and Logopandecteision[11] (1652)
George Dalgarno's Ars signorum, 1661
John Wilkins' Essay towards a Real Character, and a Philosophical Language, 1668
Well this is good for me because it means I'm already ahead of the average conlanger's first step What would you consider as typical as you can though? In this sense I think that being an euroclone could be an advantage. I have some big chunks of the language inspired by latin, such as the tense and mood verb system, and what I was planning to do is to copy it stripping it of irregularities. I think this would be the least extravagant option. What do you think?Many conlangers make a "kitchen sink conlang" at some point -- one that's supposed to have all the features they've found out about and thought were cool. (The stereotype is that your first conlang is just a re-lexification of some natlang you're fluent in, e.g. your native L1, while your second conlang is a kitchen-sink conlang (KSlang).)
In other words I recommend making your conlang as "average" as possible, with the exception of the one (or two or three) feature(s) you're interested in.
In your case you seem to be most interested in the taxonomic lexicon. I'd recommend that for this conlang you keep everything else as typical as you can.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
EDIT: I began to write some sentences in Eil, but they just sound awful. Just from an aesthetic point of view, what do you think? What does it remind you of?
Lunimdule dharmei (teachings on the riverside)
Narwe têmme ur ethin knaroth leydre îyl ayi ur lêdse, fearedhledel leyttem ômse.
The warrior who knows when to keep his sword hidden and when to show it, holds the secret for a good reputation.
Eth yêdual nermirellarle. Adoth êdhuwmeth (âl).
One should begin every day saluting the sun. It’s a quick method to make oneself feel happier.
Lemre matirimnealle êyl; seth varre leyttemei îreil.
Listen closely (with attention) to the sound of the rain on stones; it whispers powerful secrets.
Lumindule nermirruynle ûruyn urôth, aldule edhledin temnûrsele.
One should take the time to wait for the sunset on the riverside, to remind himself of the beauty in the universe.
L1:
Fluent (on a good day):
Written:
Beginner:
Working on: ~ Eil
Fluent (on a good day):
Written:
Beginner:
Working on: ~ Eil
- eldin raigmore
- korean
- Posts: 6356
- Joined: 14 Aug 2010 19:38
- Location: SouthEast Michigan
Re: So it's time to make my language public
Well, see my reply to the next part of your quote, but I have a list of what's typical in WALS.info. For some features no single value is the majority value; you may have a choice of two or a few values for a feature, all of which may be considered "equally typical".Jarhead wrote:What would you consider "as typical as you can", though?
http://www.box.com/s/i85p4a9088qqutjbgizg is "EZ2Read".
http://www.box.com/s/8o0axalj9v0t0znb2vte is mostly the same information.
I also have a list of what's rare in WALS.info. You should avoid these features of these values, unless you specifically want to use one or two or three of them.
http://www.box.com/s/5y3za063j3y7f10a632z is "EZ2Read".
http://www.box.com/s/4nto31enqcx5k90o8rsy is mostly the same information.
Absolutely. That might be the easiest way to choose a "typical" language. Many of the feature-values shared by most European languages are also shared by most non-European languages. (Of the 26 features Haspelmath mentioned in his 2001 article, 14 are common world-wide, while 12 are common in Europe but uncommon outside Europe. There are also 9 more features common in Europe that Haspelmath didn't mention in 2001; but I don't know which of them are also common outside Europe and which are not.)Jarhead wrote:In this sense I think that being an euroclone could be an advantage.
It might (or might not? take your choice) help you to see
http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/tools-at-l ... avcsik.pdf
or some of the other links in this search.
This wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European has a list of SAE areal features.
http://webh01.ua.ac.be/vdauwera/sae.pdf might be interesting for you.
Conlanger Joerg Rhiemeier has this: http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/sae.html. I think it's easy-to-read and gets most of the information a conlanger would like to know about the SAE sprachbund.
http://archives.conlang.info/tau/bilzha ... whuan.html answers some questions about it, but it really has more questions than answers IMO.
http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagin ... dammer.pdf is a useful and brief summary of linguistic areas in general; it has little about the SAE sprachbund specifically.
I think http://www.frathwiki.com/Standard_Average_European mostly has
Most Romance languages, particularly the Western ones, are in the SAE sprachbund, so making them like Latin would be reasonable.Jarhead wrote:I have some big chunks of the language inspired by latin, such as the tense and mood verb system, and what I was planning to do is to copy it stripping it of irregularities. I think this would be the least extravagant option. What do you think?
As for simplifying and regularizing the language, that depends.
The average language is not simple nor regular.
However the languages spoken by the most people are simple and regular.
How this happens in real life is, in the absence of sound-recordings, broadcast technology, and writing, many adults have to acquire the language as an L2 while past the age (somewhere in the 'teens; probably around 15 or 16 IIRC) to do so easily, completely, and naturally; then they have to spend at least as much time speaking that L2 with others who acquired it as adults, as they spend speaking it with native-speakers or those who acquired it young (under age 15 or 16 or whatever the real number is); all still without the aid of sound-recording or broadcasting technology or writing of the L2.
Now there historically have been several reasons why that might happen; and not all of them have to do with the language being "a language of empire". Swahili, for instance, is the native language of a rather small group of people living in a rather small area. But it's the "lingua franca" or trade language of a large number of people speaking various languages related to Swahili and to each other and living in a much, much, larger area. It's much simpler than most other Bantu languages. It has fewer noun-classes, and has no lexical nor morphological tone.
So it's not really unrealistic for your 'lang to be simpler than the Standard Average European language; nor simpler than any particular one of the languages in the SAE linguistic area. You just need a good backstory to make it be reasonable.
OTOH if you want you can skip the reasonableness and realism and naturalism and just make your language a bit simpler just because you feel like doing so.
They do? I can't tell that they sound awful. Can you post a YouTube or some such thing letting us hear how they're pronounced?Jarhead wrote:I began to write some sentences in Eil, but they just sound awful.
I think they look fine! I imagine they probably sound fine, too.Jarhead wrote:Just from an aesthetic point of view, what do you think?
The conlang does not particularly remind me of any natlang nor group of natlangs (nor any group of conlangs either).Jarhead wrote:What does it remind you of?
What did you expect it to remind me of?
Thanks!Jarhead wrote:Lunimdule dharmei (teachings on the riverside)
Narwe têmme ur ethin knaroth leydre îyl ayi ur lêdse, fearedhledel leyttem ômse.
The warrior who knows when to keep his sword hidden and when to show it, holds the secret for a good reputation.
Eth yêdual nermirellarle. Adoth êdhuwmeth (âl).
One should begin every day saluting the sun. It’s a quick method to make oneself feel happier.
Lemre matirimnealle êyl; seth varre leyttemei îreil.
Listen closely (with attention) to the sound of the rain on stones; it whispers powerful secrets.
Lumindule nermirruynle ûruyn urôth, aldule edhledin temnûrsele.
One should take the time to wait for the sunset on the riverside, to remind himself of the beauty in the universe.
My minicity is http://gonabebig1day.myminicity.com/xml
Re: So it's time to make my language public
I'm having trouble going through all those sources (they are very specific and use specific jargon) but eventually I will grasp them. I'm especially confident that the tables showing the frequency of the features in the different languages are extremely useful in determining what I should use when in doubt.
Boom. In my conworld, this language is a conlang too. It's a lovely little story, I'll post that too when I finish writing it. The idea is that to save humanity humans leave earth and create a new civilization on a different planet, and that civilazation uses this language.eldin raigmore wrote: So it's not really unrealistic for your 'lang to be simpler than the Standard Average European language; nor simpler than any particular one of the languages in the SAE linguistic area. You just need a good backstory to make it be reasonable.
He. Hehe. Funny thing, I can't really pronounce the 'r' the way it's supposed to be, even if I'm italian so I'm supposed to be able to. I'm working on it. As a rule of tumb they are supposed to be read mostly like you would read italian or spanish.They do? I can't tell that they sound awful. Can you post a YouTube or some such thing letting us hear how they're pronounced?
I'm actually glad it doesn't resemble too closely any other thing, because I feel that originality would make my work more valuable. Influences in thinking the language come from celtic, ithkuil, quenya, portuguese and some more.The conlang does not particularly remind me of any natlang nor group of natlangs (nor any group of conlangs either).
What did you expect it to remind me of?
Thanks to youThanks!
L1:
Fluent (on a good day):
Written:
Beginner:
Working on: ~ Eil
Fluent (on a good day):
Written:
Beginner:
Working on: ~ Eil